Redstate

First, I think we are still in the "try to win" phase of this thing where we should be putting our time, effort, and creativity into winning the election. After the election we can argue about what to do... which is always more fun if we win.

I think during the election is the only time to do something like this since it's the only time Candidates and the leadership of the party is listening to us.

Second, I think any logos or whatnot should be respectful or helpful in winning right now. Even if they express some independence, they should be able to convey "vote for GOP" to an outsider.

I admit that gives me pause as well, but Republicans are being blamed for the earmark mess and all the rest of the things that have occurred since they abandoned conservative principles and it is a heartfelt belief that I have that we won't win unless we get back to what got us there in the 90s. And it is also a heartfelt belief that we won't win down ballot unless we do something to shake the Party up and get them to pay attention to the rank and file!

Finally, it's not just conservatives upset with the party. Libertarians are upset (and probably with even more cause) over the past 6-8 years. Moderates have felt shut out for a while now.

I know...Believe it or not...I'm more a libertarian than a Socon...I just don't believe you can have a Libertarian society without having a moral underpinning to "govern men's passions" as one of the founders put it.

As for Moderates...My problems with them...and I'm sorry if you are one...is that this Party is built on a set of principles as I stated in my resolution that have been laid out and built up since the 1850s in our Platforms. The platform we now have is decidedly Conservative, and is supported by the majority of the Party or it wouldn't be written in it's current form. Almost everyone in the Party are moderate on one item of the platform or another...but the Platform as a whole represents the will of the majority of the party as built up by a consensus of those who attend conventions and work so hard on behalf of the Party every four years. Yet some Moderates demand that we ignore the part that offends them...it's no big deal cause it's a small part...but then there's another group over there who want's to ignore another part..and so on until we have leaders pandering to them and ignoring the will of those that worked so hard to build up the platform...and all the work ends up being for naught. It is my opinion that we need to look to the platform...and it should be our guide....

We can all fight for what we would like to change during the various Conventions but when the National Convention is over...and the final Platform has been adopted...we should all buckle down and work to see the Platform enacted as policy...Why is that less valid than your contention that we should buckle down and accept the Candidate or the current leadership who has nothing but contempt for the platform...no matter what?

How about a tagline/sticker like "Anti-earmark, pro-McCain."

Or "End the Earmarks, Vote McCain."

Those help us in the "trying to win" phase but also make a statement. Furthermore, since the GOP nominated the most anti-earmark of the primary candidates, it would make sense to passers-by who might also be pissed about the corruption of government.

An upside down GOP or McCain logo looks like you support Obama and you're attacking the GOP or McCain in your efforts.

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especially not out of the US Senate! Chafee, Specter, Hegal, et. al.

Chafee in particular was absolutely without value, and yet the RNC pumped him quite a bit of money.

He was hardly "shut out"

He utility to inclusion ration was 0, not infinite.

"Moderates have felt shut out for a while now."

What the H.E. double hockey sticks? Moderates have been running this party! "Where I stand does not depend on where I'm standing." Fred D. Thompson

You probably haven't ever even met a moderate.

Bush, Cheney, Delay, McConnell... all the R leadership are from the conservative wing. And the conservatives would flip out if Sen. Specter or Snowe was minority leader or if Rep. Castle or Shays was minority leader in the House.

Sure the conservatives have been doing some rather un-conservative things (like expanding government as fast as possible and taking corrupt pork barrel earmarks) but if you think Delay is some kind of moderate, you've got an odd definition of the word.

Now if you mean "don't agree with me" as your definition of moderate, then of course moderates are running everything. But if the word has any actual meaning, let me know when Snowe, Collins, Arnold, Bloomberg, Rudy, Whitman, or Specter are seen as "mainstream" Rs and Santorum, Brownback, Kyl, and DeMint are seen as outside of the the mainstream of Rs.

Right now the party is run by conservatives and moderates are seen as necessary evils to get to a majority. It's true on this site and throughout the party.

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There are many types of "Moderates"...

Fiscal Moderats...Anti tax cuts, anti spending cuts, pro earmarks, etc.

Social Moderates...Pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro gay marriage, anti speech for churches and religious groups etc.

Defense Moderates...Anti WOT, anti defense spending, anti Iraq war, etc

Moderates on Federalism...Pro intervention by the central government, pro unfunded mandates, pro using the federal power to achieve conservative ends.

You ask how we define "RINOs" My definition is anyone who is moderat in 2 of the four categories. I have another definition for Rinos that are those typified by John McCain, Arlen Specter, Chuck Hagel, and William Cohen. Rinos are the Republicans who the so called "objective press always site as evidence of bipartisan support for some bad piece of legislation is put forth by the Democrats!

Each category has significant minorities on each of these positions. Yet we have the Party pandering to each. The result is a Party that is unresponsive to it's members, stands for nothing and is a shadow of it's enemies instead of a principled champion for American exceptionalism!

This is why I said in my OP that the Party and it's leaders should look to the Party platform as it has been built up over nearly 160 years to represent what the Party stands for!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

As a matter of fact, I would call Tom Delay a moderate....He's moderate on spending and hes a Moderate on Federalism because he's one of the lead dogs pushing the idea that we should use the Central Government to accomplish Conservative ends!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

his departures from conservatism are well documented.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

Bush is what I'm calling a FedMod...He's Moderate on Federalism and FiscMod....Moderate on fiscal issues...spending specifically

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

We're talking about Mr. "There's no spending left to cut".

Btw, in what senses do you think McCain is a moderate?

McCain is my definition of a RINO in that he's one of the voices the press points to when the are pimping a liberal bill by saying it has "Biprtisam support.

He's also a Moderate if not Liberal on issues of Federalism. See McCain Feingold and his new $7Billion Dollar Health Care Plan.

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Who cares about the press? Do you have any empirical evidence?
About bipartisanship, the conciliatory nature of representative democracy and the duty of representatives to even ignore their constituency, the electoral or ideological one: was Edmund Burke a RINO?

"He's also a Moderate if not Liberal on issues of Federalism. See McCain Feingold and his new $7Billion Dollar Health Care Plan."

You can't see only one side of the equation. Can't you find any issue where McCain takes a federalist approach?

But from the 3 categories you defined - fiscal, defense, federalism -, McCain is only a moderate in one of them, right?

OK...the press and the Democrats have pointed to McCain, Graham, Voinovich, Hagle Snowe, Specter and Collins as evedence of "Bipartisan support....

How's that?


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

No moderate would consider Delay a moderate. And a lot of conservatives have defended him.

You're using "moderate" to mean "people I don't like or agree with."

How about using ACU ratings or something objective.

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I didn't say he was a moderate...I said he's moderate on spending and federalism!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"I would call Tom Delay a moderate" - aceintx

Sorry, no spinning that. Just because conservative leaders screwed up doesn't make them moderate.

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I wasn't being clear...I should have said a moderate on certain issues and principles...The K Street Project for example, and the prescription drug benifit for another...his who;e strategy for "Building a permanent Republican majority" was anything but conservative.

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Spelling correction...Should be "whole strategy"


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Arlen Specter, for example, was chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and is still the ranking Republican on that committee.

Much to my surprise, he's performed that role very well-- but would that have been the case if back in 2005 when he was about to assume that role there hadn't been a lot of public worrying here and elsewhere about whether he would sandbag his fellow Republicans or not? Hard to say.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

he is not a conservative, but certainly not a liberal either, in his own psuedo-libertarian way he has been true to his own ideals.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

He is indeed a special case...but I disagree he's not a liberal, He has an ACU rating in the mid 40s....a Conservative he's not...and if he's a moderate...then I need to lower the threshold of what I call moderate

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"and if he's a moderate...then I need to lower the threshold of what I call moderate"

40 is moderate. 0-30 is probably liberal. 70-100 is probably conservative. And 30-70 is about moderate. There aren't many moderates, which was kind of my point.

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We've never disagreed on this Adam...Maybe I'm not being clear...or you're ignoring my points....

McCain is over all a Conservative. As I said earlier...the reason I put him in the RINO category is his insistence on peeing down our legs and pandering to the left as a way of ingratiating himself to the press!

again...my problem is the Party pandering to all different categories of Moderates which leaves the rest of us...the majority of us that attend conventions...and work on platform committees and vote on platform motions at Conventions with no representation.

Meanwhile the Democrats win, and the country moves relentlessly leftward because all the Democrats have to do is wait for Moderates in the Republican Party to cave and give them what they went.


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"again...my problem is the Party pandering to all different categories of Moderates which leaves the rest of us...the majority of us that attend conventions...and work on platform committees and vote on platform motions at Conventions with no representation."

Then go find House and Senate people who you think represent you and support and write about them.

I'm still bewildered at the idea that by putting insulting stickers on your car you expect leadership to listen to you more than they do now.

Unfortunately, your time here at RS drives me to presume you care more about whining than actually doing something to change things. I await your diaries about the House, Senate and Gubernatorial candidates who would "represent" you and what you are doing to get them elected.

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I'm still bewildered at the idea that by putting insulting stickers on your car you expect leadership to listen to you more than they do now.

You and some are insulted by it, I and some are not...so what's your point...that because you are insulted by something we should stop just to appease your fragile sensitivities? That doesn't sound very Republican to me...it's mor PC than anything.

Unfortunately, your time here at RS drives me to presume you care more about whining than actually doing something to change things. I await your diaries about the House, Senate and Gubernatorial candidates who would "represent" you and what you are doing to get them elected.

What you call Whining, I call communicating to the Party that there are fences to be mended and that they need to get back to first principles! What you call whining I call pointing out that that Republican brand is being hurt by our leadership heading off in the wrong direction. What you call whining, I call being honest about what I believe is a detriment to our mutual goals.

You may find what I and others are doing bewildering because we're calling attention to a problem during an election year that you think will hurt the Party Brand. I am bewildered by the insistence that we soldier on and act like a problem doesn't exist when it obviously does. I earnestly believe the Republican brand is hurt far more because of the abandonment of our founding principles than a simple protest to demonstrate the dissatisfaction of our current leadership because of that abandonment! I'm bewildered how you think the Republican Party gains when it sticks it's fingers in it's ears and says, "la...la...la...la Ican't hear you" when there is a clamber across the party to fix the problems!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"I am bewildered by the insistence that we soldier on and act like a problem doesn't exist when it obviously does"

No one is saying "do nothing." I've repeatedly listed constructive things that could be done. You could find people who agree with you and help them get elected. You could come up with a slogan or logo that is helpful not harmful to the Party.

I've been one of the loudest people talking about the R brand going in the tank and my support for McCain was in part due to his ability to fix the brand in a way the "normal Rs" couldn't.

So stop whining and do something that helps fix the problem. Because upside logos are not helping. And big long declarations on a blog aren't doing it either. Win people over, get your guys elected, do something.

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"Sure the conservatives have been doing some rather un-conservative things (like expanding government as fast as possible and taking corrupt pork barrel earmarks) but if you think Delay is some kind of moderate, you've got an odd definition of the word."

When people say that you shouldn't judge people by their actions but by their natures, I always get irritated.

Their actions are a reflection of their natures.

When you start doing un-conservative things, you are an un-conservative.

I tried my best to explain this to my Clinton-Defending friends in the late-90's. "Dudes. He sold you out on everything you cared about."

You know what they told me? That the Republicans would have been worse.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

You know what they told me? That the Republicans would have been worse.

Such is the road to Mediocrity..."He's better than the Republican/Democrat blah blah blah

We never hear why we should support anyone anymore...it's alway vote against the other guy or else!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

You have said many many times that McCain is more conservative than Bush. Now you say that moderates where shut out because Bush et al are conservative?

You are essentially saying that "conservatives" are less conservative than moderates?

Without getting sucked into a long debate on what is a moderate and what is a conservative, I believe we can both agree with the following:

The GOP has not been governing in a conservative manner\

The GOP has not been leading the country in a conservative direction

The GOP has not been attempting to persuade the electorate as to the desirability of conservative policies

Given the facts above, it is hard to say that moderates have been shut out. Non-conservative thinking has dominated the GOP. Its like they passed the Bush tax cuts (cuts opposed by many of the moderates), and then conservatism took a vacation.

Conservative policies have been shut out of the GOP, not moderate policies.

The GOP has not been governing in a conservative manner\

The GOP has not been leading the country in a conservative direction

The GOP has not been attempting to persuade the electorate as to the desirability of conservative policies

Polling and donations bear this out...McCain and the national NRC can't raise money while donations to state and local party's and candidates is going through the roof!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Hmm.. but how has McCain became responsible for the way the GOP has been governing? I'd say that he'd be the least responsible of all! You can't criticize the guy for being a maverick and for being responsible simultaneously.

Entitlement programs and NCLB apart, the 4 most expensive bills of the last 8 years were the 2002 farm bailout, the multi-billion Medicare drug entitlement bribe, the $286.4 billion highway bill with it's zillions earmarks and the energy bill, which included the ethanol hoax.

McCain voted AGAINST ALL of them.

And now he's the one responsible for the unconservatism of the GOP during the last 8 years?

This all started as a response to McCain's comments in the NCGOP flap. I am asking that we change the focus from McCain to the Party in general.

You are dead on with you comment:

Entitlement programs and NCLB apart, the 4 most expensive bills of the last 8 years were the 2002 farm bailout, the multi-billion Medicare drug entitlement bribe, the $286.4 billion highway bill with it's zillions earmarks and the energy bill, which included the ethanol hoax.

McCain voted AGAINST ALL of them.

McCain deserves credit for voting no on those things and I want to praise him here and now for it. Delay and Bush, and Frist all deserve our condemnation for pushing all of these through and I want to go on record condemning them on that basis!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I'm sorry if I misrepresented your positions. But honestly I find your argument that McCain is a RINO because he takes a burkean approach to the legislative work and therefore the press touts a few of his positions rather weak (the NCGOP affair was, IMO, no more than a campaigning tactical move: wrong, from my perspective; but far from being a big deal - and corrected). But fine, Burke himself was relentless accused of treason by his own party.

I tend do agree with you about condemning Bush, Delay, Frist et all, but let's not forget that the GOP is a political party, not an ideological think tank. There are better ways of boosting our ideas than strong public opposition to our own leaders, especially in an electoral year.

let's not forget that the GOP is a political party, not an ideological think tank.

The Republican Party represents a world view, it's there to uphold and defend the principle set up in it's founding documents and the Platform that has been written and rewritten every four years for close to 160 years.

Simply put, the PArty has said with it's platform that we Oppose:

Socialism
Excessive taxation
Class warfare and redistribution of wealth
Protectionism
Activist justices
Abortion
Deficit spending
Political Correctness
etc.

We support:
A strict interpretation of the Constitution
Limited government
A strong national defense
A libertarian society supported by a strong moral foundation
unleashing the creative potential of the private sector as a hey to American Exceptionalism
etc.

If you think the Republican Party is not one large think tank you have obviously never participated in local and state conventions because that's what the conventions do. Ideas are presented as motions at every local convention across the country which are voted on up or down Those motions that pass go to the State to be voted up or down...and so the National Nominating Convention!

The Party is a think tank and the Platform represents a consensus of our beliefs as voted excepted by her membership.

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Republican vote and compare that voter to the average Republican Senator, I suspect that Republican moderates are over-represented in the U.S. Senate, not underrepresented.

Note, I am not saying that people like Snowe, Spector, et al. should not be supported. I am saying that we need the red states to elect red Republicans.

I live in Michigan. If we could send a Spector to the Senate, I would be thrilled.

So this is not surprising. I expect that the reverse holds for Democrats.

Gingrich and Army won indies in 1994 with the Contract with America. The party won elections for twelve years saying they supported the principle in the Contract with America during elections but governed after they were elected in the oposite way.

It is my contention that the country caught onto the used car salesman behavior of the Party and voted them out because of it.

We all agree that winning is the goal here and I for one and many like me earnestly think we won't win again until we say what we believe as written into our platform and govern the way we said we would!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

When they focused on good governance, term limits, and some other things Is supported by about 80-20. Probably is, those issues aren't hot right now and the ones that are getting attention Is are 70-30 the other way (i.e. leaving Iraq, more government health care, supporting stem cell research, hating Bush).

"It is my contention that the country caught onto the used car salesman behavior of the Party and voted them out because of it."

We agree there. So start doing something that improves the problem instead of insulting party members who are trying to do something with your anti-GOP logo.

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When they focused on good governance, term limits, and some other things Is supported by about 80-20. Probably is, those issues aren't hot right now and the ones that are getting attention Is are 70-30 the other way (i.e. leaving Iraq, more government health care, supporting stem cell research, hating Bush).

It's focused the other way because our Party has given us nothing by way of explaining what we believe and why we believe it. It's given us nothing to rally around except vote for us cause we're not them.

We won in 1994 because we ran on popular conservative issues and promised to live up to them. Where is that now? is there a message out there that communicates conservative values and what we're going to do to enact it now. If you can show me, "I'm all ears"....(as cummunicated by a short rat faced Texan some time ago)


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I don't recall calling McCain more conservative than Bush. On some issues, that's definitely true (spending, school choice) but not on others.

But the main fallacy you're making is that when conservatives become corrupt, you then call them moderate. Just because conservatives become corrupt does not turn them into moderates. That goes for Delay, Burns, etc.

Being a pork barrel Republican does not make someone moderate.

So yes the conservative Republican leadership has been a failure. But failure is not the same as moderate.

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To be a pork barrel spending is to be moderate on spending issues as opposed to being for spending cuts and shrinking government is to be conservative

What's so hard to understand about that?


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Trent Lott, Tom Delay, and Rick Santorum are not moderates and the moderates in Congress would be really surprised that anyone even suggested it.

Moderate does not mean "things I don't like."

What we have here is a refusal to accept that there can be bad conservative leadership. If you want bad moderate R leadership look to OH under Gov. Taft. But if you're looking at the national party, it's time to accept that conservative leadership failed.

That doesn't mean we have to try moderate leadership. But it does mean the cynical idea that "once they're corrupted, they're not conservatives" is silly and wrong.

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If the definition of Conservative on fiscal issues is to believe in spending cuts and decreasing taxes:

What do you call someone who is a pork barrel spender but believes in lowering taxes, (besides unrealistic).

What do you call someone who believes in cutting spending and raising taxes?

I call them both moderate since they believe in at least one aspect of what is the definition of conservative on fiscal issues!

Someone who beleives in increased spending and increased taxes I call Liberal on spending issues...

Do tell...am I wrong?


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

As witness. 12 years of run away spending, creeping social liberalism, and continued push to silence churches in the political process under Republican Majorities!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I clicked post before I was finished writing, and did not have the opportunity to erase the lines that are automatically in my entries. I'm gonna have to delete them officially.

Aceintx, sounds like a great waste of time and energy. And I suggest spelling convention properly in the title.

Duly noted and corrected

They should get the same reception.
You go Ace.

"Yeeeaaaarrrrrggggggg..."

Next time we write a string of diaries that are focused on insulting the GOP nominee for President, you do that.

We had the primary where we all attacked one another and tried to take down the other guy's candidate. Now, ostensibly, we're on the same team. Except some people are more focused on how to be insulting than on winning.

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Adam...you insist on making this personal...I'm attempting to change the focus to the Party and away from McCain in large part in deference to you...you have valid points...but so do the rest of us...

It's not personal to McCain...It;s not about tearing down anyone or the Party...it's about what we really believe needs to be done to win...

You may disagree that what we are doing is the right way to go about winning but you are wrong to characterize what we are trying to do as "Tearing" any or anything down.

.

But you're being insulting and destructive. That's not personal and I don't take these things personal, this is politics.

We are trying to win an election here, and your peddling an effort to put anti-GOP and anti-McCain icons in the public. That's helpful to Obama. It's a zero sum game whether we like it or not.

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Have you seen any genuine anti-GOP icons in, oh, the last seven years or so?

They're not exactly known for their subtlety.

A simple upside-down GOP symbol is way understated for any actual GOP-hater.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

If you were making an anti-Democrat Party icon, would you turn a donkey upside down?

Or would you leave it right-side-up, but put the international symbol of a red slash-inside-a-circle over it?

I know I'd do the latter.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

n/t

"Yeeeaaaarrrrrggggggg..."

I'm a text person, not a graphics person.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

I agree that there are better ways to make an anti-GOP ad, but that doesn't change the fact that a passer-by would take this to be one as well. No one would see an upside-down GOP logo and think "oh of course, that's a Republican who is worried about the direction of his party" which is what people here seem to think it would mean.

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That's why I said we need to telecast by whatever means what we are saying with the display...it does no good if only a few of us go along...and no one knows what we're saying.

That having been said...I'm probably fighting a losing battle here but as my tag says...your silence is your consent to the mess Republicans made after 12 years because they refused to govern the way they promised!

An again I say, contrary to your contention that elections are the worse time for such a movement and display of dissatisfaction, I say this is the time since we'll be ignored once the elections are over and the Party no longer needs our support!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"your silence is your consent to the mess Republicans made after 12 years because they refused to govern the way they promised!"

I've posted front page articles as early as 2005 title "The End of Fiscal Conservatism" after the GOP congress passed the Energy and Transportation Pork Bills.

I worked rather hard to get McCain nominated because he was a big change from current R leadership. He had shown a willingness to stand on principle against Republican leadership on pork, on the Medicare Drug Bribe, on the Transportation and Energy Pork bills, etc.

I'm actually trying to do something about it instead of spending my time pushing an anti-GOP or anti-McCain message. I'm trying to get someone elected who will veto the pork and has promised to hold spending constant.

And I support others who have been endorsed by the Club for Growth or other groups that are willing to take on the GOP conservative establishment that has gotten too comfortable in DC (see Lott, Delay, Boehner, Frist, Young, etc, etc).

If you take actively anti-GOP action during the election, I hope the Party doesn't listen to you afterwards.

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I worked rather hard to get McCain nominated because he was a big change from current R leadership. He had shown a willingness to stand on principle against Republican leadership on pork, on the Medicare Drug Bribe, on the Transportation and Energy Pork bills, etc.

I'm actually trying to do something about it instead of spending my time pushing an anti-GOP or anti-McCain message. I'm trying to get someone elected who will veto the pork and has promised to hold spending constant.

I praise you for the effort Adam and I wouldn't take anything away from you. I've admitted here more than once that I had the green eye shades on for six of the last eight years and I'm sorry for it.

And I don't want to take anything away from McCain when hes been right, but can you tell me how his $7 billion health care bill comports with the record you describe?

McCain moves to middle on health care

McCain Runs Ad Touting His Health Insurance Plan

McCain seeks tax credit for health care

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8380/bluebackgroundbc3.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6453/gopdistresstq4.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8901/mccain08lu6.jpg

Amnesty,Spending, Corruption, Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I can take any image you send me and edit it to a large extent

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

What you didnt get enough this morning??

You fail to realize...we agree more often than not...

But when we do...Whooo Boy do we ever!

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Must be a Texan thang. Hook Em.

To extremism in defense of liberty!

I'll have a full blog on this and the modern conservative movement tomorrow-I hope you'll read it, I think you'll for once agree with what I have to say on my blog.

To extremism in defense of liberty

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I'm supposed to be doing actual work right now being at a job and all lol. But I want to put it up before I leave for the weekend on a vacation todaym, but I might wait so I can return and respond on Monday.

To extremism in defense of liberty!

And my HTML isn't showing the image of the upside down sticker and elephant correctly :-(

To Extremism in Defense of Liberty!!

Past this to you page and put a "<" before the "img" ignore the quotes.

you're free to use my graphic...or...if you want to use the one you're using...copy the link to the hosting site I gave you where it is in the string. To change my wording to your quote from Goldwater...put it where mine is starting with "Amnesty" and anding with "Consent!"

I got into trouble below as you can see so make sure of the spacing after you paste in what you want before posting...We don't need to make Neil's job any harder than it is so we can get up on 3.0

img src=http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4715/bluebackgroundtl7.jpg alt=Help!!/>
Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

To extremism in defense of liberty!

Well....ya gonna go for that pistol....or stand there and whistle Dixie....(spit)

Hookem

:>)


Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Is it too long with the statement after the logo or is it something else?

I need to know how to fix the text

Oh...I used some Java language...its that it?

n/t

[FAIL - Neil]

Do not put it back again. That signature is disruptive to the site, and when I have to clean up each comment you make, it wastes my valuable time.

Do not use HTML if you are not experienced enough with the langauge to write it correctly, as per my warnings in my HTML Help series (See signature).

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

I thought I followed you instructions to the T after I took the CSS code out...Is the image ok by itself as I've had it for the last month?

n/t

If I was a bit snippy there, I'm sorry. I'd just gotten my computer booting again after some memory I ordered this weeked turned out bad and crippled my computer.

I got it on, came here, and had to fix your comments :-)

All is well though. The problem is that even if you *thought* you had the sig in right, the end may have been cut off, breaking it.

Just please don't use any 'div's anymore. Go ahead and put your sig back. Just don't use any divs.

thank you,

HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater

The script in the commment box has to be PERFECT...just rearranging a Position of one character can mess the whole page...listen to neil...start small and work your way up

n/t

That doesn't always work...I checked them with Preview...but it didn't show the un-closed commands

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I did start small...I got in trouble when I went to change colors on fonts.

Niel..could you post a string to show how to do it?


Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

n/t

strong>

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Spending, Corruption, Earmarks
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

snore

n/t

Just a typical, small town, white girl...

Soy yo otre vez, mi amigo! First, let me say that I have stayed on the sidelines of this recent uproar, which might surprise some. Ultimately I'm not willing to play chicken, given the stakes.

But I say there IS a profit. Not a net profit, which is why I am laying out. But there IS a problem with McCain's behavior, in that (IMHO) McCain is doing certain things which damage his own chances of winning in November.

His ill-considered stunt wrt the NCGOP caused a rather large uproar, and not just at RedState. Mathematically speaking, what McCain did was (1) hurt homself with the BASE, while (2) not materially helping himself with the vaunted MIDDLE.

Here's the profit - if such a noisy flare-up at RedState (and clearly it's being done elsewhere) ACTUALLY causes McCain to consider his actions wrt the Republican base a little more closely during the campaign, it will have helped him in his chances to win in November. The world right now is looking at Hilbama, but soon the large guns and knives will be aimed in McCain's direction. And by then, he had BEST have his house in order.

It does seem that RedState is at least minimally on the radar in the McCain HQ. So while I do not agree with the actions done here, and I would not have done them, there is, IMHO, some profit to be had by the base flexing its muscles and reminding McCain not to urinate in this direction.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

E, I don't see how his objecting to the NCGOP ad hurts his chances in November. The activists may be riled up, but like it or not this type of thing plays well with the unengaged voter. It's not a vaunted middle, it's the vaunted voter. The idea that McCain was voted in by Dems and Independents is a salve for the campaigns that didn't win, but as Adam has ably illustrated on many occassions, it isn't reality. Legitimate Republican voters voted for John McCain. I know many of them personally.

The idea that McCain disagreeing over the Wright ad is going to be the straw that keeps some voters home is, I think, an illusion. Those who find their camel disabled over this really couldn't be counted on in November anyway. Those who object but still are voting for McCain, which I gather includes Ace, must be voting for him for a reason. If so, they might reasonably conclude that others, those who you are worried about, have the same reasoning. In which case I'm back to my original question, what's to be gained?

I've personally recommended several diaries disagreeing with McCain over the NCGOP ad, and have voiced my own objections.

But organizing anti-McCain campaigns? That's not a winning strategy. Not for the election, and not for conservatives.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

McCain runs a weak and PC-laden campaign.

Remember Dole in 96. He actually starting gaining ground at the very end when he took the gloves off---but it was too late. If McCain runs like Dole did, it will hurt his chances big time.

The NC ad is merely a symptom.

, I don't see how his objecting to the NCGOP ad hurts his chances in November. 'objecting to the ad' was the least of it - it was calling out NCGOP as 'out of touch' that did the REAL damage. And you don't see how that hurts his chances in Nov? NCGOP told him where to stick it, and all across America myriads of people sent $ to NCGOP. The media noticed it, and it will come up again on the theme of 'McCain does not have his base solidified'. It will. And it will hurt him for Nov. Those unengaged voters don't even know about this incident, and 60 days before the election it is the sole province of the Treason Media (thanks to guess who) to package and sell that story any way they want to.

Let's don't do the 'how he got nominated' game. No matter what you and Adam say, it was not the base that picked him.

In regards to "the straw". Listen, and somebody in McCainville REALLY needs to hear this. McCain is not far from being out of straws. That's what my original comment was really about. Even if we all lose this way, it is very, very possible for McCain to insult the base to the point that they stay home.

I'm not down with the anti-McCain campaigns. But I am rather sympathetic to the 'McCain, you better start listening' campaigns.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

"Let's don't do the 'how he got nominated' game. No matter what you and Adam say, it was not the base that picked him."

Facts are facts no matter how they depress you. The idea that no one was voting for McCain but agents of the other side is roundly false. If I had been eligible in SC I would have voted for him. I know dozens who did.

It's just not true, and it's not a recrimination game. It's absolutey essential that the fact be known. That is exactly what my early McCain blogs were all about. There are conservatives at Redstate who are so convinced they are right about McCain that they believe it is impossible that other conservatives would vote for him. It's just not so.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

I keep trying to bring everyone back to my OP...it's about the Party as a whole....We lost in 2006 and they've done nothing to correct the Proble...I've got issues with McCain...I'd be lying about it if I said I didn't...but the purpose of this diary is to focus on the Party.


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I do not want to have this argument, but I must respectfully disagree. I did not say ANYTHING like 'no one was voting for McCain but agents of the other side'. I will not be held to that. I said the base did not pick McCain, and I stand by that.

He won his nomination because of a process that led 5 candidates with complex support dynamics through a parade of purple and bluish-purple states and wide-open primaries, with the media cheering him on every step. McCain owes Huckabee several juicy wet kisses for causing some extraordinarily fortuitous dynamics that siphoned votes from other candidates at some critical times. Hey, crap happens and I don't begrudge McCain the benefit of a decent message, a well-run campaign (after about Dec 1) and some good fortune.

But that is NOT to be equated to a mandate, or any notion that MY peeps are some kind of tiny minority.

Yes, many conservatives voted for and continue to wholeheartedly support him. I never suggested otherwise. But many is not most. In the same way that you personally know a great many conservatives and base GOP that support him, *I* know a great many conservatives in Texas who are pretty much in the boat with me - grudging acceptance but no more. I can tell you for a fact that in Tarrant County (Fort Worth) GOP executive meetings for all county GOP officials, precinct chairs and up, that McCain is roundly and heartily despised by a great majority of them (and not because EPU is stirring up the pot - believe me, I keep a low profile in these smoke-filled back rooms of the GOP political machine). And *these* people really are the base. The party activists, the donors, the GOP ground force.

I say the base did not pick him. Did *some* conservatives support him as their first choice? Sure, due to anti-pork, strong-on-war. But not most.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

"purple and bluish-purple states and wide-open primaries"

IA, NH, SC, FL and MI. That's 4 "purple" state of which Bush won 3 at least once and one "red" state.

IA, SC and FL were closed primaries meaning only two were "wide-open." And McCain won 2 of the closed and only 1 of the open ones.

And 2/5 had a slew of all kinds of states from OK to NY, CA to GA.

Bottom line: GOP primary voters choose McCain and conservatives supported him as much as any of the other candidates.

______________________________________
Donate to the Rs in Close Senate Races through Slatecard

MI is most definitely bluish-purple, I don't think SC was closed, and Fred was gone before Florida - another purple. Regardless of which states Bush won, 4 of the 5 are either purple (IA, NH, FL) or bluish-purple (MI).

Which was the first state in which McCain won at least 50% of the vote?

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

You had Liberal/Moderate Republicans voting McCain and the Conservative vote was divided between at least 3 candidates in every one of those states. To say McCain won a mandate under those circumstances is to delude yourself. I venture to say...were the match ups between McCain and any one of the other 5 candidates in a head to hed vote, the results would have been completely different!

But once again, you guys keep dragging the discussion back to a McCain Bash when my diary is about the GOP as a whole...Can we discuss it please and stop throwing bombs at McCain?


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Liberal/moderate/conservative Rs voted for all the candidates. McCain usually won the moderate vote but rarely even got 50% of that. So the moderate vote was also "divided between at least 3 candidates." McCain was always first or second among conservatives, IIRC. So don't try to characterize this as all conservatives opposed McCain.

And no, you're wrong. We got McCain v. Huck heads-up and McCain won almost every states. We're getting McCain vs. Paul now and McCain is crushing Paul. In almost every poll that asked, Huck voter's second choice was overwhelmingly McCain. And Romney voter's second choice was McCain more than anyone else.

At the time, I was pulling for people to pull out as soon as possible because all the numbers pointed to McCain winning by more the fewer people were left.

I know there is a small sliver of McCain haters out there. But McCain had the highest favs among Rs of any of the candidates. And he still has 80-10 favs among Rs and conservatives. That's better than Bush, Huck, or Romney.

So this whole "McCain is hated by lots of us" is either a lie, or more likely an overestimation of the number of McCain haters.

______________________________________
Donate to the Rs in Close Senate Races through Slatecard

So this whole "McCain is hated by lots of us" is either a lie, or more likely an overestimation of the number of McCain haters.

I never said anything about McCain hate...All I said was...(granted it's my opinion)...but all I said was I don't think he'd have come out on top if he were only running against say Fred, or Rudy, or Mitt in a one on one matchup. He'd have likely faired better and beat Huckabee but the point is...he never got 50% share of the vote until it was all over but the crying.

Your poll quotes give me pause and I need to look into those as always my goal is an honest debate which means admitting when I'm wrong and I will do so again when I proven wrong....anyway...I reiterate...My intent with this post was to discuss the party and it's disregard for the platform...We're getting lost in the weeds by continually dragging the discussion back to McCain!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

My original comment was that he was not selected by independent and democrat interlopers. When you replied that the base didn't pick him, it seems a natural conclusion you were making the opposite argument.

If we are staking what we did not say, I did not say anything about tiny minorities, nor certainly anything about mandates. I've long said this was a rebuilding year, not a mandate year.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

Those who find their camel disabled over this really couldn't be counted on in November anyway. Well, really, isn't it the job of the CANDIDATE to give people enough reasons to vote for them, to actually vote for them?

For what reason should disillusioned base voters be "counted on', exactly?

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

whoever fixed my hanging italic tag - thank you! May your vineyards always overflow with tasty grapes!

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

Change his positions? Contradict himself? Become a flip-flopper?

He's the same McCain he was ten weeks ago. I don't know what it is you expect him to do. His policies should matter. They look good. Why must we play around over something that he literally did nothing about?

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

While certainly I *wish* he would change some positions, that's enither here nor there. What I'm talking about is, given that the base is squishy on him, perhaps not call them out in the media for doing perfectly legitimate exercises.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

... And when McCain does such a McCain thing, knowing he is McCain, it would be nice if we didn't have a fresh batch of suicides and end-of-the-world blogs at Redstate. Sigh. We all have dreams.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

I'm not in favor of these either.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

As to what McCain should do since you asked...

I've tried to make the point that it's not as much the issues he disagrees with me on that's my issue with the candidate...(This goes for the Party leadership as well). Disagree with the base if you must...That's inevitable, Adam has always been right on the point that we we'll never have a perfect candidate...but don't attack you base and call us names to curry favor with the MSM while talking about being "respectful" to the other side.

As I said...this applieds to the whole party not just McCain


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

McCain and the NCGOP flare up is a dead horse at this point...I was one of the first ones to post that it was time to move on starting Monday...

McCain's not the problem...He's only part of the problem...it's the party and it's leadership that needs to get the message.

Look...the Bob Micheal, Bob Dole wing of the party gave us 40 years of uninterrupted Democrat Rule. It wasn't until Gingrich and Army and that gang that put us back in control. I would point out that they were attacked the same way we are being now for being divisive and needing to go along because we would lose if we tore down the party, (as if they weren't and we aren't being defeated on a regular basis anyway)!

There's no better time to show our discontent than right now...this is when they need us. This is when they are looking to us for support. if we wait till after the election to complain as Adam suggests...we will be ignored as we have been since the 2006 elections. By voting for the same leadership without letting our concerns be known we are telling them..."Go ahead...use us as door mats...we'll complain in the off years but we'll dutifully pony up on election years so don't concern yourselves with our complaints!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

the very type of people who make up a large portion of the party, the people whom McCain says he represents, libertarian minded conservatives, are the very ones who are less likely to be willing to go along to get along.

We are the type who are least likely to be moved by calls for solidarity. In fact, it tends to raise our hackles. That may be a weakness, or it might be a strenght.

But I am fairly certain that we will get nowhere if we remain silent. I want McCain and his handlers to know EVERY TIME that they stray off the reservation, that we are calling them to the carpet. Now, they might not care, like Bush, but they will at least know that we are trying to keep them honest.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Forgive me kyle, but I read your response to say "who knows from profit. I'm just personally miffed and want to make sure people know it." Your reply sounds like petulance.

"We are the type who are least likely to be moved by calls for solidarity. In fact, it tends to raise our hackles."

I don't buy that. I'm a libertarian leaning conservative as well. I don't get my hackles raised by calls for solidarity, and I don't make such calls. Who cares from solidarity? I'm talking smart politics, and I'm talking getting the things I want done to be done.

This false line keeps getting drawn. Who said anything about go along to get along? Since early in the primary I have failed to understand this notion that one is "compromising" oneself by voting for McCain. But that was then. Now you would have us believe that not attacking McCain is compromising oneself?

I say bah humbug to that. I'm interested in doing what's best for America. Right now, that's getting John McCain elected. In no way is that helped by organizing campaigns to mock him.

"But I am fairly certain that we will get nowhere if we remain silent."

I was able to disagree with McCain's take on the ad without burning him to the ground or organizing against him. Are you suggesting the only way to prove you aren't cowed to silence is with a megaphone and rotten tomatoes?

"I want McCain and his handlers to know EVERY TIME that they stray off the reservation, that we are calling them to the carpet."

What reservation? In what way stray? His objection had no material impact. Like I say, this was as predictable as it was without effect.

"Now, they might not care, like Bush, but they will at least know that we are trying to keep them honest."

If the profit you are interested in is making sure everyone hears your feet stomping, then I guess this plan works. Otherwise, I still don't see the value in it. Reasoned, thoughtful news items, emails, opinion articles and blog entries are far more likely to make an impact than mocking, vengeful bumper stickers in my opinion. Of course, it's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt or pepper or whatever you prefer.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

I just see you and your attitude as part of the reason why we have had so little real conservatism in the last twenty years. You fight for what you believe for a while, then you quickly capitulate and get behind the party even if the party is not right.

You might be right to do so at this particular time because the Dems will control the congress. But if I thought that the Republicans would control congress I would whole heartedly support the Democrat over McCain because divided government is better than wishy washy republican government.

I do not believe that the Republican party is always right, in fact they are lately more wrong than right. They only look good because the Dems have gone so far off the deep end.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

"I do not believe that the Republican party is always right, in fact they are lately more wrong than right. They only look good because the Dems have gone so far off the deep end."

Then find some people you think would make a change and support them. I started following politics during the 2004 OK SEN race when I supported Coburn over an establishment conservative (Humphries) mainly because I thought Coburn was serious about small government and would take on his own party. I supported McCain for the nomination for the same reason.

If you can't put effort toward the Presidential campaign, find some House or Senate candidates you think can make a difference and support them.

It's the relentless anti-GOP efforts that are harmful and they don't help get the point across. If you want to change the party, get active locally and find people anywhere who agree with you and support them.

______________________________________
Donate to the Rs in Close Senate Races through Slatecard

I've expressly pointed out that I share the disagreement and have said so.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

You've done your characterization of those you're disagreeing with, so here's my characterization of what you're saying back to them:

"Sit down, shut up, and be a good little doobie and get McCain elected or you're not a real Republican."

Sorry, but John McCain has sandbagged plenty enough Republican and conservative positions that I can't just sit quiet while he does that some more. It's better that conservatives and John McCain hash out their differences now and come to an agreement before the Democrats decide on their nominee so that we can support him cheerfully and with a clear conscience come September and October. We've been blessed with this time to get our house in order, let's take advantage of it. Otherwise he might really need our support down the home stretch and it'll be too late to hash things out then.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

Yours obviously isn't. I expressly pointed out a number of ways to object that aren't designed to undermine the election, ways that, as I also point out, I too have taken advantage of.

You are drawing false lines out of your own spite finrod. Either I can join you with hand grenades and self-destruction, or I'm not a "real" conservative. Thanks, but I'll pass.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

Since when is expressing an opinion 'hand grenades and self-destruction'? And when did I ever say that you are not a "real" conservative?

Your characterization is total bunk-- you're doing the exact things you're claiming I'm doing.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

My entire point was you can object without organizing campaigns expressly designed to publicly undermine the candidate. I pointed out that reasoned articles, blogs, and emails are more likely to be effective. I pointed out that I've been recommending the blogs that objected to McCain's comments and that I objected to them in my own blogs.

But you and kyle pretend that I'm suggesting we quash dissent because I think organizing these destruction campaigns is counter to our own goals. That's what is bunk.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

Man, you'd think we were protesting at McCain rallies or something. All that anyone has tried to do with the upside-down logos is make a statement: "We are conservatives and a natural McCain constituency, and we would like to support John McCain, but he's saying things that are not conservative, which means our support of him is going to be reluctant at best, the way things are currently going".

But you seem to confuse 'trying to get John McCain's attention' with trying to cut him off at the knees, so instead you're trying to cut off at the knees anyone expressing their opinion in a way you don't approve of.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

what you mean to say. Those logos will be seen as anti-GOP or anti-McCain which makes them helpful to Obama. In fact, they help with the meme that there are upset Rs voting for Obama.
______________________________________
Donate to the Rs in Close Senate Races through Slatecard

So whatever you do to object to McCain isn't trying to cut him off at the knees, but me complaining about you doing so is trying to cut you off at the knees?

I see organizing McCain protests as counter-productive to our own goals, and certainly not in any way something that can reasonably be expected to hash things out. Because I argue that point with you, you have decided that I'm defining "real" republicans, "silencing dissent" and a host of other emotionally charged offenses.

Any objection to anything you say or any disagreement is always treated as an attempt to "silence" you. If debating ace on this issue after he expressly opens it to debate is cutting you off at the knees finrod, then I guess I'm just plain guilty. I don't know where else to go from there.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

You (and Adam) have insisted on calling people that would support McCain but don't want to see him forget the base 'anti-McCain'.

Just in this blog, you've used: petulance, organizing against [McCain], mocking, vengeful, hand grenades and self-destruction, destruction campaigns. Yet you want to debate!

You're welcome to express your opinion, but every time someone expresses something different, there you are unloading a shotgun full of invective at them. How many posts to that extent have you made in this blog alone?

Has the concept that an unmotivated base could simply find other things to do on November 4th than go vote ever crossed your mind? And that could mean the difference between President McCain and President H. Clinton/Obama?

Sure doesn't seem like it.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

You're going with "you started it"? This isn't my blog, nor my anti-McCain campaign.

"You (and Adam) have insisted on calling people that would support McCain but don't want to see him forget the base 'anti-McCain'."

I've repeatedly proven this straw man of yours both absurd and totally false. You are incapable of seeing anything but oppression in replies that are anything but in total agreement with you. As I've said and said, I've not only not done that, I've been recommending the blogs on the topic. More than you have. I'm talking about people organizing coordinated protest campaigns.

"unloading a shotgun full of invective at them."

LOL.

"Has the concept that an unmotivated base could simply find other things to do on November 4th than go vote ever crossed your mind?"

What part of "what is the profit in this" am I not communicating to you?

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

This is something I've stated over and over on other diaries...but I've neglected to say here...I am in no way asking anyone to stay home Nov 4th. That would indeed be foolish!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

You think that's what I think because that's how Finrod insists on understanding my disagreement.

I say organizing protest campaigns isn't helpful in any sense of the word, and that's exactly what I said above. I keep asking what it is supposed to accomplish.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

That's why I said it...I am in no way endorsing not voting for McCain and think that would be foolish...

I want to say it so my intent in continuing to push this is clear...Vote McCain and Support the Party but let your leaders know they need to fix the problems!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I said it was NOT not clear. I understand your intent. I said before I understood you were a McCain voter. If it was just another "wah" thread I wouldn't have made such a lengthy reply. I'm disagreeing with your judgement, no offense, not your intent.

Like I said in my first reply, spitting back will, in my opinion, work best after we make sure we're not saying President Obama in January.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

I thought it was a typo...I do it all the time...i.e. double typing the same word because I pause to think!

and no offense taken...I would have no respect for you, Adam, or any one else here if they couldn't say what they believed and hear a dissenting reply without taking offense.


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

That being said...I wish to express my heartfelt respect and admiration to you, Adam, Fin, and most of the rest in this thread!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"I can summon spirits from the vasty deep."

"Well, so can I, and so can any man; but will they come for you when you do call for them?"

You can say you've done lots of things, but that doesn't make it so.

You seem to have a stick permanently wedged up your posterior over this whole icon thing; you can't possibly understand how it could possibly do any good. Get real, it's just a freaking icon, it's not like it's the Mark Of The Beast or some such. Some people want to use it to express their dissatisfaction with McCain, so be it. But no, you're like a bulldog with a bone, you won't Let It Go. I daresay it's gotten more attention here because you keep railing about it than it ever would had you said your peace and then stopped. And heck, I wasn't even involved in the original creation of it; I'm just trying to say my part to defend some people with good intentions that are worried about our party's presumptive nominee.

So go ahead and accuse good Republicans and conservatives of trying to destroy our nominee when they're only trying to help. I'm not going to bother to try to convince you otherwise any more; it's clear to me that you're firmly in "Dead men do bleed!" territory on this issue.

I'm done.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

You're so dramatic. I'm replying to replies to my reply. Or is that bad? Are you "silencing" me?

Come on, seriously?

"You can say you've done lots of things, but that doesn't make it so."

Go look for yourself if you're so sure I'm a liar. Go read my own objections to McCain's NC GOP thing. Or look through this very thread where I repeatedly suggest all sorts of ways to object without being objectionable. I started this thread by saying McCain spit in our faces, and suggested that the best way to do something about it is in January. It's thinking strategically, not emotionally.

I also don't know what you mean by drawing attention, except in as much as you continue to think I have some nefarious censorship fetish. Ace expressly sought the opinion of others. I answered that request.

If you'll note, in the David Hinz thread I only entered long enough to defend Hinz. Again, go dig it up if you think I'm a liar.

I have an objection to organizing protest campaigns against the Republican nominee, because I think it undermines the election. I think undermining the election is bad because of what we'll get instead, and I don't want to burn the country down now for small satisfaction four years from now. As this is a website in large part about such things as winning elections, I feel I'm pretty well in bounds here.

"So go ahead and accuse good Republicans and conservatives of trying to destroy our nominee when they're only trying to help."

Good grief, give me about half a break.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

I know what you are saying is true because I remember your posts...you did defend Hinz and I'm sure he appreciates it as doe I

But I have one quibble with your numerous posts here...I keep saying in post after post...I want to stop the protest against McCain. I want to change the focus to the Party.

Can you at least stick to that fact and stop referring to this latest diary as an anti McCain campaign please?


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

But things don't happen in a vacuum. As you can no doubt see from the comments thread, it's going to be about McCain whether you want it to or not. That's just one more reason it's less effective now than it would be after the election.

I'm happy to concede your intent, though. I'd have done it sooner but got caught up in a typical finrod fight.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

so you are saying you would sign onto this in 2010?

;>)


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Protesting isn't really my deal. I'm more of the solitary typing and sending thoughts into the oblivion of the internet sort.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

"You (and Adam) have insisted on calling people that would support McCain but don't want to see him forget the base 'anti-McCain'."

I respond two things: 1) people who say they aren't voting for McCain in the Fall (usually to prove they are "pure" and "better" than those us who don't think Pres. Obama is a fine idea) and 2) the upside logo movement that is "anti-McCain."

Throughout this I've suggested finding a slogan or logo that is pro-McCain but also shows that you don't want him to "forget the base." But instead, people are using an anti-McCain logo. That's not helping anyone.

This argument isn't over wanting him to not "forget the base." It's about a logo (and a declaration above) that are anti-McCain (and anti-GOP).

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I respond two things: 1) people who say they aren't voting for McCain in the Fall (usually to prove they are "pure" and "better" than those us who don't think Pres. Obama is a fine idea) and 2) the upside logo movement that is "anti-McCain."

Adam...would you please look at my logo and note that it's no longer a McCain logo and listen to what I am saying...

I will say it again as I said in the OP..."I want to shift the attention away from McCain and focus it on the Party as a whole."

I've also said over and over again, "I do not intend this to be anti McCain and I would add Anti-Republican!

Finally; At no point in my OP or through this thread have I advocated not voting for McCain to prove you are "pure" (btw...I don't think I've read anyone except you using the word pure in this post or any on this subject)! To the contrary, I have asked those I am talking to to support the candidate and the Party but send a message that there is work to be done that is being neglected!

Would you please stop mis-characterizing what I have said and stop insisting that my intentions are something that they are not?

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Even you know there have been other diaries with people happy to jump on the 'flip the sticker" campaign who are not voting for McCain. As I pointed out in the comment above, I've jumped into these threads when either:

1) someone says they will not vote for McCain and thus help elect President Obama, or

2)the upside down logo movement

The later is what got me into this thread. And when you started this thread you had both and upside down McCain and an upside down GOP logo. That's great that you just want to be anti-GOP now. But this whole conversation and thread began with both logos on here.

And even with the shift, I don't see how being anti-GOP helps make any of the changes you want.

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That's great that you just want to be anti-GOP now.

You just can't help yourself can you...LOL

I don't want to be anti anything. The GOP is my party...she's a grand ole Gal and I love her through and through...I've said it a dozen times at least...this is not anti anything....it's a "hey you guys, Your killing yourself...let us help!"

I'm left after 2006, seeing the Party continue to go the wrong direction feeling like I would if I were watching one of my kids destroying themselves with drugs but not being able to get them to listen when I tell them they're destroying themselves!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"I've said it a dozen times at least...this is not anti anything..."

And i've said it a dozen times. I know your intentions are not to be anti-GOP. But your chosen path of action is functionally and in practice anti-GOP. You are using an icon in a negative sense. Put a red circle around the icon with a line through it and you'd have the same effect.

My biggest point in all of this is that the icons chosen will be seen by any outsider as anti-McCain and anti-GOP regardless of your purpose.

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You have a very good point about my tag when I started this thread...I guess you missed it in another thread, (I can't remember which one)....I told you specifically that you had a point about the McCain sign and I was going to change it.

I started this post before I had a chance to change it and ended up messing with Neil because I screwed up the HTML Text


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

You are starting from a false premise Absentee...

Had you red my OP and Hinz, who is the person who devised the first demonstration, you would know that the intent of this display is to say We are Republicans and we support the Party and it's nominee...we are in distress and we need help getting on board the ship and the Party needs to wake up to the disaffection that is pervasive within it's ranks!

To say we only wish to tear down the party is at best a misinterpretation of the message as stated and at worse an out and out lie!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I say will. That's why I asked you "what profit is there" and that's why I said above that I gathered you were one of those people who WOULD be voting for McCain.

It's right up the thread if you think I'm lying.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

How are upside down graphics and bumper stickers "hashing" things out?

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

My equivalent is: "Wbua ZpPnva Sbe Cerfvqrag".

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

Let me answer that...It's to point out the need to hash things out.

It calls attention to the need to fix what's wrong with the Party right now and I keep saying NOW is the best time to do it. After the elections are over the DC crowd will go back and bury their heads in the NYT and return to pandering to Pinch and we'll all be forgotten till next time we're supposed to support the Party but expect nothing in return!

Of course we'll Whine, (according to Adam) from now till then but then what...Oh..."We have to win over Mods and Indies and we need to be a team and win the election so don't protest.

It's been that way since at least 1996 and I don't see it changing in 2010 either!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"It's been that way since at least 1996 and I don't see it changing in 2010 either!"

We fought and argued during the primary, during the immigration reform effort, etc. We will fight again after the election.

But right now we need to win a tough election. How does any of this thread or the insulting logos help with that? Because I've pointed out how they hurt the effort.

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Donate to the Rs in Close Senate Races through Slatecard

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

It's about sending the entire Republican Party Hierarchy a message that we won't go along to get along any more...McCain is only a small part of the problem as I see it and I don't want to kneecap him in any way...that's not what this is about!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Good points Absentee...that's why I'm saying take the focus off McCain and draw out the Party...

We don't disagree that the goal is vistory where we differ is how to get there....

You say my Party do or die....we can't have any descent so we can win...

I say we can't win unless we clean up our act. I say we're in the political wilderness now because we've ignored our mandate and left behind our principles. I say we have to change directions or we will continue to lose. and I say we can't get the Party to change directions until we 1) show them we're not happy and 2) we stop ignoring their bad behavior and return them to office over and over again despite it!

Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"You say my Party do or die....we can't have any descent so we can win..."

Nice killing of a strawman. We're saying your efforts are helping the other side win regardless of your purpose.

I think primary voters showed the GOP they weren't happy. They didn't nominate another Bush-style GOPer.

And if you want to spend your effort on finding some "new style" Rs in House races to support, do so. But I haven't heard anything from you today or since you joined the site about who you support and what you're doing to get them elected.

It seems you'd prefer spending your time attacking the GOP and its nominee rather than working to change anything.

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Adam...That's not true and you know it...I've told you I participate in my local and State Conventions. I've served on the credentials committee at my district convention and I've been precinct chair for my conventions for the last 3 election cycles. I originally supported Huckabee because I considered him the least of 8 evils. I'm off his bandwagon now because he's come out and defended a Jerehmiah Wright who I consider to be a heretic.

I'm supporting McCain and intend to vote for him but I'm not a mind numbed robot and I won't ignore him when he's wrong. I'm supporting Cornyn for US Senate, I'm supporting Robert Litoff for the house though he is running against Charlie Gonzalez who will spend over forty million dollars this year when we'll be lucky to raise four hundred thousand for Litoff.

We elect our governor in off years buy I will be supporting David Dewhurst for Governor in 2010.

I'm disappointed that you would pull that one out of your hat when we've discussed this before.

:>(


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Three replies to me so far and not one of you seems to have read what I said.

absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.

*None* of them read what you say. Only EPU does. I'm your biggest fan, the rest are posers.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

this thread is Epic..

"40 million American households with guns are generally happier
than those people in households that don't have guns."

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Donate to the Rs in Close Senate Races through Slatecard

I've got a lot more of these coming!

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Sure we had the Presidency, the House, and nominally the Senate-- but then the Democrats changed the rules in the Senate by filibustering everything in sight. Suddenly 51 votes isn't enough to control the Senate any more, it takes 60 to defeat a filibuster and we never had more than 55.

This is why for example drilling in ANWR, which had the support of a majority of the House and Senate last Congress, never passed, and why so many of Bush's judicial nominees never got confirmed.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

If only the Republicans had more power, there wouldn't have been the massive expansions that we saw?

I have a one word response:

"Dude."

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

The Republicans in the House and Senate deserve all the blame they've been getting over spending way too much, and then some. But it's not accurate to say 'Republicans had complete control of the government, they could have done anything they wanted', thanks to the Senate's strange rules.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

How someone could, in good faith, come to the conclusion that "what they wanted" is a lot more measurable by what they did do than by what they were willing to have filibustered?

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

a minority of senators, or a president who was willing to use the veto, could have stopped some of the wasteful spending. Sorry that dog don't hunt.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

After all, the budget can't be filibustered in the Senate. All the other things listed, though, didn't get passed because of 41 stubborn Democrats and a Republican leadership that didn't have the guts or brains to find a way around the filibuster.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

Fair enough Fin...that was a problem...But why weren't those issues brought to the public's attention? Why did Senators refuse to press the battle to the Minority Party and raise hell about their obstructionism when they filibustered?

This is what I mean by the go along to get along strategy and why we lose because of it!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Mojo, I don't always agree with you, but you hit a grand slam on this one.

Compounding all you have written is the decision by the McCain group to go after "independents" and democrats rather than the traditional republican base. I think that will spell disaster for McCain in November, but he has six months to change course. But I am not sure he is able or willing to do that. He never has before.

Mr. McCain, we are all mavericks now - Rush Limbaugh

"Okay, it's after the election, can we deal with my issues now?"

"Sure! The democrats would have been worse. Have a nice day."

(time passes)

"What do you mean we lost the election?"

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

Well said...though I think you should change your registration and work to get your issues in the Platform and do what you can to get your candidates to pay attention to it!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

In the meantime, however, I just don't want to even see the mail I'd get when I switch to become a registered Libertarian.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

LOL...That's not quite what I had in mind when I said register!


Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”