Redstate

And this story makes me sick to my stomach. I literally want to throw up.

I know it's hard to believe, but I still believe that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, moderate, and sensible just like the rest of America. Our Muslim community here in DC is almost entirely integrated into the broader community, and my friends will be horrified to hear about this.

it is a self selecting subset. The people likely to leave their home countries and come and live among the infidels are a subset of more modern looking people. Those left behind are a subset including a lot of really poor and really backwards people, as well as young people full of fervor and easily brainwashed by hate-filled old men in robes.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

but the better question is what are you prepared to do about it?

... and I'm even willing to believe that most Muslims in America may also be moderate and peaceful. But stories like this (and the Teddy Bear riots in Sudan, and the riots and bombings over the Danish Mohammad cartoon, and the murder of Theo Van Gogh) make it hard for me to believe that this statement is true of Muslims everywhere. That's what it boils down to for a lot of Americans: we hear one thing and see another on the news every single night, and we don't see Muslims in this country or elsewhere protesting this sort of thing, or trying to stop it.

But I will give you this: I wish I had a chance to phrase that last comment. I did not distinguish between Western Muslims and Muslims as a group. That was sloppy of me, and unfair, and I am sorry for it. Moreover, I believe the man who murdered his daughter was an immigrant, not a native born Canadian. One might expect him to have a different value system than most Canadian (or American) Muslims.

Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me

Well I feel you already kind of cleared things but I want to say this.

If you believe there is no peace in the religion then every Muslims would have killed any one that is not a Muslim that comes their way.

Painting with the same brush you used initially, all White are evil because of segregation and slavery of Blacks which still exist today. Oh what about Imus, he is racist so all whites are racist. Or all Whites are racist becos of Cramer's (Seinfield) comments. Or what about Mel Gibson to Jews.

NOTE ALL THESE HAPPENING ABOUT THE SAME TIME.

So I guess it is ok if I say all white are evil and I should hate them and promote hate towards them since white people have done wrong to my people.

I'll point out one fact. Every one of the incidents you mentioned (hurtful to blacks and Jews) has been denounced by whites and by Christians in the harshest possible terms.

We fought a civil war 150 years ago to eliminate slavery of blacks in the United States. The Don Imus, Michael Richards (Kramer), and Mel Gibson statements were all condemned by the general public, black, white, Jewish, Christian, atheists and Martians alike. They were discussed for weeks, seriously and in depth, by representatives from the entire spectrum of the media.

Sure, there was a range of opinion about the incidents and about what should be done. Not everyody thought Imus should be fired, but I didn't hear of anybody who said, "How wonderful! I hope my child grows up to be just like that. In fact, if he wants to do it after school, I'll drive him wherever he wants to do it. The priest agrees, you see."

If a priest/reverend had agreed with any of the objectionable things that were said or done, he would have been either reprimanded or fired by his superiors/employers.

In the US, Christian leaders and lay people regularly defend Jews, and Rabbis regularly defend Christians, and they both defend the weak and oppressed. It's time that Muslim leaders started speaking up loud and clear to condemn radical Muslims who support violence against anybody, even their own children.

For those of us who don't speak Arabic or Farsi, who haven't been taught in a Muslim school, who haven't been taken into the religion as members, the only things we have on which to base our opinions are what we are told by the media, which has been a mixed message at best, and what we see Muslims (both leaders and members) do in public. We are intelligent enough to distinguish between people acting on what they think their religion calls for them to do, and people acting on instructions from their religious leaders. When the leaders say nothing is when we have to try to read between the lines.

The non-radical Muslim community in the US has been conspicuously silent on occasions such as the one in the original comment. (And it does happen in the US; at least one similar murder was committed near Detroit in the 1990's.) Just a little outrage at their own people would go a long way to prevent others from painting the religion with too broad a brush. Their silence seems to imply that Muslim leaders either approve of the action or that they, themselves, are afraid to stand up to the radicals.

The "Third Worst Person in the World" and aiming higher.

"And it does happen in the US; at least one similar murder was committed near Detroit in the 1990's."

It just doesn't make the news. But then, murders by illegal immigrants and deaths caused by illegal immigrant drivers, whether drunk or otherwise, or murders of whites by blacks for racial reasons, none of those really spend much time in the news, either. Just rich white women going missing and their husbands suspected as having murdered them. And, of course, political tripe about how Bush is scum and a criminal and a lair and how our troops are terrorists and murderers and torturers...

"Hillary is a blonde. But what she's got is a testicle lockbox."
-Rush Limbaugh

actually ARE peaceful and moderate - although not "just" like us, of course.

Our war on radical Islam is part of a civil war within Islam. The radicals have a lot of money, and they have been quite successful in taking over madrassas, prison programs, mosques, etc. in order to get converts to their twisted version of Islam. (See, e.g., works by Daniel Pipes and Stephen Schwartz)

They are powerful, and fearsome, but they do not represent more than a small (although perhaps growing) group of Muslims.

"There isn't a man alive who hasn't wanted to boot an infant." - W.C. Fields

which faction is larger? Seriously, how do any of us know? Most Muslim countries don't have free elections. What little polling data we have suggests that most of them want to destroy Israel [1] and that even in the United States a substantial minority of them excuse suicide bombing. [2] And then, of course, there are the tens of thousands of Muslims in Sudan who marched in support of executing an English woman over a teddy bear, the Janjaweed militia conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing in the same country, the murder of Theo Van Gogh, and so on.

Truly, I want to believe that most Muslims are moderate. I would love to believe that. I just don't see the proof.

[1] http://theproblemwithmostarabmuslims.blogspot.com/2007/12/innocent-pales...
[2]
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016565.php

Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me

I don't have adequate answers, not being a scholar on the subject, but I would suggest considering the fact that it appears that the vast majority of Iraqis are not radical, and the same goes for the Afghanis. The Iranian population seems pro-American, on the whole. The Muslims in Indonesia seem moderate and peaceful, too.

Re: Israel, I myself am a Zionist and so I do not say this in any way to excuse it, but it is a fact that feeling against Israel is strong and popular in the Muslim world, and it has been this way a long time. It is very largely the result of successful propaganda. But it is not an indicator of whether a Muslim is radical or not.

"There isn't a man alive who hasn't wanted to boot an infant." - W.C. Fields

both are officially Islamic countries that cannot have laws contrary to Islamic law, which means death to those who convert from Islam to another religion.

Not sure how moderate that is. We are still trying to get that Afghani gentleman who has been sentenced to death out of Afghanistan.

Having draconian laws against conversion out of Islam is not incompatible with living in peace with one's neighbors who are already Christian, Jewish, and some other kind of Muslim than you are. Nor does it mean that one supports war against the West.

See, for example, Michael Yon's report on the Muslims who attended mass recently in Iraq to encourage their Christian neighbors to return.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/come-home.htm

"There isn't a man alive who hasn't wanted to boot an infant." - W.C. Fields

If a religion is not tolerable enough to allow members of the official religion to convert to it, then it is not a tolerated religion.

If it were frowned on. If they lost a couple privileges, then I'd say, ok. After all, the religion they are converting From is the State Sponsored Official Religion.

But we're talking about EXECUTING someone for a conversion. That 's not toleration.

"Hillary is a blonde. But what she's got is a testicle lockbox."
-Rush Limbaugh

living in peace?

Those who engage in violent jihad quote the Koran in offering infidels the choice of conversion, submission as a dhimmi to Islamic law, or death. Not moderate. Not tolerant.

My point here is we need to stop the emotion and stereotyping.

Do we have free elections in socialist countries around the world. Even here in America, Bush's presidency is questionable (both terms).

Minority support suicide bombing and you still put the majority under the same umbrella as the minority.

Consider these Apathied in South Africa. Adolf Hitler's cleansing. Here in America the killing of Indians. Or the Hutu and the Tutsi cleansing. Just to mention a few. Are these all Muslims.

We have churches here in the US supporting blowing abortion clinics what about that.

I do hope that you got the material that you needed to fold, spindle, or mutilate until it fit whatever a priori conclusions that you had made about us.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

We'd consider all this to be radical, but there's a great difference between the first and the last.

+ The "strap on a suicide vest and martyr yourself" category
+ The "grab an AK-47 and try to shoot some Americans" category
+ The "stone this woman to death because she cheated on her husband" category
+ The "throw this woman in jail because she wears immodest clothing" category
+ The "anyone who doesn't practice Islam is the enemy" category

It all depends on what you are talking about when measuring the radical population. I'm pretty sure the first couple groups are tiny minorities. I'm not so sure about the rest. This story is not about a guy in the first couple categories. He'd be in the 3rd category.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

The real story here, although I get the sense that you're not the only one missing it, is that there are people who are crazy enough to kill their own daughters over scarves. Those who kill their own flesh and blood over something like that would readily do it to those of us who might actually put on shorts or go to Church now and again. What percentage of Muslims that constitutes, whether in North America or abroad, is much less significant than the simple fact that there are people like this around the world.

www.republicansenate.org

and i agree with you

i was responding to another assertion

"There isn't a man alive who hasn't wanted to boot an infant." - W.C. Fields

he killed her because she was an appostate. Killing appostates is part of Islamic law and is part of the widely taught Hadith.

What about the cop that killed some high school kids over a girl? What about Omaha Mall shooting? Or the VA tech shooting? Or the man that burnt his ex because she left?
All individual that belong to some kind of group but cases treated individually.
These phobia we have with the religion is a minority issue not a collective one. We have nut cases all around

This is common practice in Muslim countries. Honor killings happen with regularity.

The incidents you cite are rare aberrations. But if you want to see the reaction when its thought that a group encourages or creates the conditions for them, Consider the reaction to Goth Culture after columbine.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

I'd be very tempted to exercise my right to defend (preemptively) the rest of the family from him.

"There isn't a man alive who hasn't wanted to boot an infant." - W.C. Fields

I know little to nothing about sharia courts except the apparent propensity for producing unacceptable judgments.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

I meant I'd take the guy out

"There isn't a man alive who hasn't wanted to boot an infant." - W.C. Fields

I would one could argue these muslims were not sane.

Churches supporting blowing up abortion clinics?

its members to blow up abortion clinics. Give a name, give a date, give a link. I'm throwing the B___ S___ flag on this one.

"If this ain't a mess, it'll do until one shows up." -Sheriff Bell, No Country For Old Men

Skanderbeg pegged Canada as the western part of western Europe.

Thanks - obviously a very perceptive fellow.

If you haven't visited Canada recently, you'd be surprised to find how it's having its own problems of the "islamic supremacist" sort.

Ontario has been having weird responses for some time on things like this. Two ideas were floated as trial balloons and went down in flames once they were.

The first was a brief gum-batting about allowing "muslim communities" to set up their own sharia courts, outside of the legitimate legal system. This idea got pretty far along, and it actually got pushback from a few muslim women who had the legitimate beef that they left the "old country" and came to Canada to GET AWAY from that sort of thing and didn't want to have it follow them. That and generalized (deserved) public outcry put that idea out to pasture.

The second actually got pretty far inside the federal government in Ottawa back before the last election brought Steven Harper and the Conservatives to power. There was serious internal consideration going on of legalizing polygamy in Canada - on the grounds that this would attract more talented immigrants from certain places. This also got shelved when there was a huge public outcry.

Nothing happened on either count, but just the idea that supposedly sane people in positions of authority were even considering them is disturbing....

Canada is "enlightened" and doesn't have the death penalty. This b*stard sure deserves it....

"The first was a brief gum-batting about allowing "muslim communities" to set up their own sharia courts, outside of the legitimate legal system."

They could use a visit to a few places like Antietam. Where the iron content of the soil was raised, just to prevent that kind of problem.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

.... and (as many of them will tell you smugly) not violent and never had a Civil War.... So they are superior and can handle any problem better than us troglodyte Yanks....

Well, continuing the "Canada as a European country" motif, the "independent sharia courts" idea probably was picked up from Europe as well. There are enclaves in Europe where this is already the case, outside of the writ of the host country....

"The first was a brief gum-batting about allowing "muslim communities" to set up their own sharia courts, outside of the legitimate legal system."

I would love to see where this is from. Can you cite it?

Just go to google and toss in (without quotes or anything - for ease, just cut and paste what follows):

sharia courts canada

You'll get more than enough, just on the first page of 10.

(N.b. That search generates 44,200 hits in google.)

There are a couple of girls at my daughter's Jr. High that wear a headscarf and they are treated like any other girl. Same for my other daughter when she was in H.S.

The MSM preaches against racism, but they practice and incite it every day.

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