Polygamy: What the Heck is going on in Texas: 400 Children Seized
By Cicero Posted in Law — Comments (18) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Well, I figure I ought to post a few of the links to help people figure out what is going on about this. As the MSM seems to filled with hyperbole or titillation rather then any actual news.
Here is the blog of a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune who works the polygamy beat (so she actually knows what she's talking about) and who is personally on the scene in Texas:
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
Here is the actual affidavit justifying the seizure of the 400 plus children:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0408081texas1.html
Here is some semi-legal analysis about how the affidavit is rather weak- libertarians pay attention- there is also a small bit comparing this raid to the infamous Short Creek Raid (the reason Utah and Arizona have left the FLDS alone for so long):
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/texas-authorities-r...
Here is a CBS report on the matter that actually decided to have a historian who has studied the FLDS on to give his views- not that he really needed any expertise as most of his comments were simply common sense- be sure to watch the embedded video to see just how big a difference there is between the way the MSM is reporting the story and what seems to actually be happening:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/09/national/main4003194.shtml
I guess I should give my opinion on the matter.
Just to be clear I do not approve of the FLDS or their practice of polygamy- and I definitely oppose their practice of marrying girls off at young ages.
However my reading of the affidavit is this way:
There was clearly grounds for a warrant to go to this compound to look for the 16 year old girl who is reported to have asked for help.
Considering the history and general unwillingness of the FLDS to cooperate with law enforcement the massive force and extensive nature of the intrusion can probably be justified. (Although all the loose talk about the worry of another Waco was silly and inflammatory- the FLDS have been subject to raids many times before and their resistance has always been passive aggressive- without violence).
However, the justifications for the seizure of ALL the children at the compound are very vague, and seem to be "everybody knows" kind of information. I don't know about you but I expect some specific and concrete evidence/allegations before the government starts hauling children away. Maybe the government has that sort of evidence and simply didn't include it in the affidavit. I hope so.
However, I have a hard time believing that removing 400 children from their homes was a spur of the moment decision. I have to believe that the Texas CPS had already decided that upon the first reported incidence at the FLDS compound they were going to seize all the children. Furthermore, the raid was timed for the FLDS General Conference that is held around April 6th every year. Which means that there probably were a whole bunch of families there who do not normally live at the compound.
My inner libertarian is rather disturbed. Perhaps especially because I have this little voice in the back of my head whispering that this is really a good thing because it's the only way to end the FLDS once and for all.
Now I have consciously decided to reject that voice as coming from my (suppressed) ruthless and tyrannical side.
However, so much of the news commentary sounds just like that little voice in the back on my head that wants to use raw force to fix the problem that I can't help but worry at the precedents being set.
EDIT: Fixed some spelling errors- probably some more I'll have to come back and fix later
If it said:
"There were 28 girls under the age of 16 who were pregnant or with a baby" I'd be more willing to agree with you.
Instead it just says: "a number of young teenaged girls who appeared to be minors and appeared to be pregnant"
What does that mean?
Since there are "a number of young teenaged girls who appeared to be minors and appeared to be pregnant" why weren't they the ones taken into custody instead of seizing 6 month old babies as well?
Not to mention that at least one of the girls seized is apparently a 17 year old married to a 17 year old boy who was also seized, and are not being allowed to talk to each other.
People talk about freedom of religion as if it gives religions special protections. In fact the main purpose was to prevent individuals from being prejudged based upon their religious affiliation.
Look, I understand the instinct to crush this cult- I feel it too- but once I look past the emotional MSM story of horrors and consider the specifics I can't help but feel that there has been an attitude of:
"Shoot them all and let God sort it out".
That disturbs my inner libertarian quite a bit.
Here is the blog of a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune who works the polygamy beat
I started laughing. Tell me there isn't REALLY a polygamy beat.
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When small men cast long shadows, it is a sign that the sun is setting on the Democrat Party
Brooke Adams covers polygamy for The Salt Lake Tribune. Her reporting on the issue has won numerous awards.
She has been on the polygamy beat at least as long as March 2006. Remember the HBO show Big Love? http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/images/bigloveAd.jpg
If the rules are transparent and clear, and if the state has no authorÂity to license businesses or restrict exports and imports, there will be no opportunities to pay bribes in those areas. Mart Laar
and strangely enough, when you read her blog, it appears to me that she is pro-polygamy. Maybe not, but it sure looks like she sees them favorably.
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When small men cast long shadows, it is a sign that the sun is setting on the Democrat Party
However, since she has actually covered the FLDS movement she actually knows more about them then somebody who has just read "Banner of Heaven" (which is like trying to understand Jews by watching Fiddler on the Roof).
Since she knows them she knows that in fact the lurid stories of abuse, rape, ect, while based on true incidents does not accurately depict the typical polygamist household. Not even in the FLDS (who are among the more extreme polygamists).
Thus she does not come at this from the same: "They all must be guilty" framework that most people seem to be operating from.
My read on her blog is that she is coming to the conclusion that this incident is driven by the lack of experience Texas CPS has with this group which has caused them to act on preconceived ideas instead of actual facts.
If you read her earlier post you will see that at the beginning she was more favorable towards the Texas CPS actions. Most of what she has posted since were first hand observations. Only the more recent have begun to adopt a skeptical view of the official Child Protective Services storyline.
The Salt Lake Tribune was founded as an anti-polygamy, anti-Mormon newspaper.
So the polygamy beat at the Tribune dates back to the 19th Century.
They were able to help those poor girls without burning the compound to the ground.
Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire
Say what you want the Current administration's law enforcement efforts are head and shoulders above the prior admin's
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The first two days the story broke the news papers I saw had brand new buses hauling the children away.
Am I to believe that the state of Texas couldn't find enough public buses to transport 400 kids that didn't say "First Baptist Church" down the side to handle the job?
This whole thing smells bad. Using the Baptist buses was stupid at best.
I live in Texas, and am awaiting a child for adoption. I would be happy to take one of the little ones.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
as long as they don't come from a mommy and a daddy that are loving them and taking good care of them.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are some children that need to taken away from their parents. I'm just concerned about the apparent indiscriminate nature of the removal of children.
I mean there are lots of problems, I've actually met and talked with a few of the boys who were "exiled" from the group.
The impression I got from them (and they had no reason to be friendly to the FLDS) was that while many of the things talked about in the news media happen, they are not as common as the media implies.
Particularly that Warren Jeffs was personally behind most of the incidents, and that without him around the likelihood of abuse was much lower.
My understanding is that they are pretty overwhelmed at the moment.
Although be warned that you'd have to deal a lot of complications.
For one thing many of the children have mothers in tow.
They talked about the 140 women who left voluntarily- that's because CPS took their kids.
appear to be minors and appear to be pregnant at any big-city high school or Planned Parenthood clinic?
However, the lack of protection given young girls in other areas does justify not protecting the young girls here.
Again I repeat that CPS should investigate all the specific instances of abuse- I just don't feel comfortable with the assumption that just because someone has certain religious beliefs (however weird they are) that it can be assumed they are abusing their children and the state can therefor seize the children of an entire religious group.
I mean... I've heard people call homeschooling child abuse. I don't have the confidence that the government won't turn around someday and apply this group punishment standard to suppress any group they don't like.
Police and Social Services go into compound seeking 16 year old girl who called of abuse, see pregnant 13, 14, and 15 year old girls. That's abuse, and if there are a large number that is a place where there is a large amount of abuse going on.
By all means get every child, every woman and everyone they can away from these people as soon as possible.
It's not about religious freedom, or anything else, it's about enforcing the laws of the state of Texas. That law says you have to be 16 to be married, children under 16 bearing children is abuse...there is no question.
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