Redstate

Like you big-boy guys, I view the tags as kind of their own lyrical language - you and Moe and Erick seem to have alot of fun with it. It'll be fine the way it is...

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

I'm gonna miss Dubya. I'm an unrepentant Bushbot. :)

/I don't mind waiting a few years to be told I was right

------------
~ Beth ~

Don't try to over sell him to people who know better.

Just take our support for what it is: The overwhelming desire to not have a socialist or outright marxist for our next president.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

If you want to argue he's not a conservative, then you're starting the argument. There's no reason people shouldn't be able to argue that a pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-troops, never-voted-for-a-tax-increase, good on judges, good on spending, anti-earmark, anti-corruption R is a conservative.

Maybe it's a debatable proposition, but trying to just assume he is not and everyone has to agree with you is not right. And it's not being "sore" to fight back against what you think is a wrong description.

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principals. I agree, on the whole he is a conservative, it's just that "maverick" side of him that gets to me.

He keeps doing things that make me oscillate between love and hate for the guy.

As I said, don't try to over sell him. You've made the sale, move on before you induce buyers remorse.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

But when there is a comment or a diary that is "McCain sucks, look here" I will respond. If there is a "McCain is a liberal" diary I will respond. If there is a "I can't bring myself to support a squish" I will respond. If there is a "gang of 14 means he loves Justice Stevens' jurisprudence" comment, I will respond.

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to respond to those in the same way. They are not helpful in keeping Hillary or Obama out of the White House.

But when you are offered peace with a large group of FredHeads on a plate, please don't tell us "no deal" and "get in line and shut up".

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

"get in line and shut up"

Who says that? I responded to the provocative comment "Don't try to over sell him to people who know better."

I said I'm not overselling him. I'm pointing out his conservative views. And I will continue to do so when people say things like "I know better, he's not conservative."

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There are MANY areas where I don't think McCain acts in a conservative manner. I won't bring them up if you quit trying to tell me he is the complete and utter conservative. He isn't. Unless you can do time travel and change all those things, you aren't going to convince me otherwise.

BUT, he's going to make a FAR better president than Clinton or Obama. They are the enemy here. Not you, not me and not McCain.

Now can we have peace?

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

Sure. But when people say "McCain is no conservative," I will respond. Because that's my reading of this "olive branch." When people poke, we will respond.

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"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

And then in a comment that I responded to, a person said "Don't try to over sell him to people who know better."

So, as always, I was responding to someone. And I will continue to do so. While we're talking about violations of the "deal" here's another commenter saying that Democrats choose our nominee this year. Looks like this "deal" isn't going to stick.

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Brian should have left it as "Don't try to over sell him." He should have left off the "to people who know better". As far as the commenter in the other thread, I believe he overgeneralized what he was trying to say. McCain benefited from open primaries and the fact that the conservative vote what split between McCain, Romney, Huckabee, Thompson.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

but the first was of the family of "we're better than you" and the second was of the family "your guy stole it"

My point is that most of the stuff this diary doesn't like is in response to those kinds of comments (and diaries).

I have never written a Shut Up and Get In Line diary. I have responded to a lot of "McCain sucks and here's why... again" diaries. And I will continue doing so.

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Obviously we're not. We lost. But....

You are selling a product. John McCain. That's fine, he's a pretty good fella. But set our expectations of what we'll get from the product correctly so we won't be disappointed.

If you oversell a product and promote features that aren't apparent, then you upset the customer and they cancel the sale. Sell the features he has and I'll happily play along.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

And I will say again that I'm not overselling. I have researched at length his record on judges, taxes and abortion. He will be pro-life, great on judges, and has never supported a tax increase. He supports our troops abroad and would never abandon them or their mission. He supports school choice, personal retirement accounts, a smaller government and he opposes earmarks and the unethical pork-barreling in congress.

That's him. That's his record and his platform. That's not "over selling." That's telling you the rest of the story that Rush and Hannity like to forget and leave out.

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You won't get an argument about any of that and it's the reason I don't feel bad about supporting him now even though he was something like my 5th choice.

He's a good guy. Sell that!

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

Adam, I don't think the "shut up and get in line" complaint was aimed at you...if it were I'd jump to your defense...We've taken our shots at each other and said som unfair things about each other but I can't say you fit the "Shut up and get in line" mold.

That having been said...there are those here that have the "My guy won nya nya nya nya nya" attitude and never stop saying "shut up and get in line" or "support McCain with your money and time or if you don't you have no place at the table if he loses."

That's is who that was aimed at and they know who they are so don't take it to heart.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I think our fundamental difference is that you still don't understand - although EPU said it fairly well. McCain may vote conservatively at times (a majority of the time?), his positions may be conservative most of the time, he may govern conservatively, but he is not a conservative.

Conservatism is not policies or positions, it is principle and philosophy. Fred understood this, and lived it in his campaign.

Voting for lower taxes is a conservative position. Opposing taxes whenever possible *because* the insidious effect that they have on personal property and personal liberty is conservatism.

Opposing Roe V. Wade is a conservative position. Believing that R v. W is bad law because it degrades the checks and balances built into our system between the branches AND the levels of government is conservatism.

The biggest concern I have with McCain is that he may take positions we can back, or he may not, and without a core of conservatism, we never know for sure until it happens.

No, I think he probably understands perfectly. I'll let him speak for himself, but I'd say that this is the exact problem. You've created a game we can't win because it's almost entirely subjective. You can never really know someone's motives. It's even more difficult in politics then it is in other realms of life.

The game you've created here gives so-called "true conservatives" carte blanche to say anybody isn't a conservative based on almost purely subjective and speculative means.

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

The problem is you are thinking in terms of winners and losers. You feel that conservative is good, non-conservative is bad, and then define conservative to match what you want and call it good.

I am doing no such thing. Conservatism as I use it is a system, not a vote. It is the ideal that brought this country from a handful of hicks on the new continent to the greatest economic, technological superpower in the world. It is the ideal.

That said, it is not an insult from me to say someone doesn't match that measure of conservatism. Very few do, even Fred did not match it perfectly. Our nominee does not match that, and I can't imagine how anyone could argue that. That's ok, we can all live with that, and that doesn't mean we can't be happy with him as the President. On the other hand, there is no reason to say good is good enough and all it a day.

John McCain is a lot of things, on balance more good than bad, but he is not a conservative as those great lights listed by EPU understood and defined it.

But the idea that this "compromise" includes not being able to have that difference of opinion is condescending. I think McCain's instincts are quite conservative and that includes the anti-revolutionary part of conservatism that is not a policy position at all. And I'm not going to stop responding to people who say "McCain is no conservative."

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Seems we're the ones being told to "shut up and get in line" when it comes to McCain being a conservative. He is, and I won't.

"If all men were just, there would be no need of valor."
- Agesilaus

Thank you Hooah Mac, I think you've provided the clearest description yet of what may be underlying some of the differences between the two sides on this issue. Perhaps there is ground here for reconciliation? Perhaps the Fredheads can concede that the majority of McCain's positions are conservative, and in that sense he could be called a small "c" conservative? And perhaps the McCainiacs can concede that McCain, while he is a man of integrity and conviction, is not guided in all things by a capital "C" Conservative philosphy? Could we all agree to this?
--
"'You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,' said Aslan. 'And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.'" -- C.S. Lewis' "Prince Caspian"

I would posit that Fredheads had long ago already conceded that McCain indeed holds many conservative positions, but I'm willing to shore up that position, emphasize that we agree, if the others will do the thin you asked of them.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

That you think he's a conservative and we don't...We won't convince you otherwise and you won't convince us so let's just let a sleeping dog lie...OK?

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Here is my analogy for explaining the difference in conservatism as practiced by Fred Thompson, John McCain, assorted RINOs, and the Obamas/Clintons of the world.

I liken the TrueConservative to the loyal and faithful spouse, who took a marriage vow of fidelity and has remained true to those vows, regardless of time, distance, separation, sickness. This is your FredHead conservative. Straight down the line on all the issues.

Now the McCain version of conservative is like the husband who has taken that same vow but invokes the 100 mile rule -- what happens 100 miles from home the wife will never know. Now if you can only keep the spouse from traveling you might make out okay, but some how that spouse keeps accepting jobs that require varying degrees of travel.

The RINOs -- well they don't even have a 100 mile rule. They took the vows all right but they just don't understand the concept of fidelity -- so it doesn't matter if it they are across the country or at the neighbor’s house --- they are un-phased players.

Now the liberal wrote their own vows so they skipped the fidelity part completely because their life motto is what ever makes them feel good regardless of the cost or damage to anyone else.

Now me -- I am not just a FredHead -- but a FredHeart. As I explained to one of my fellow SC volunteers when our fingers were cramping from all of the calling for Fred that while I wanted with all my heart for Fred to win I would never be disappointed in supporting his campaign. My support wasn't just based upon supporting Fred Thompson the candidate, I was working for the set of conservative principles (TrueConservative) that he represents and that I follow and believe to my core.

Now before anyone goes off the deep end and accuses me of some accusation of infidelity -- this is an analogy folks. McCain is not 100% faithful to core conservative principles.

Forever FredHead and FredHeart

M Penny

It's the condescension that FredHeads are the top of pile and McCain is a step below (or worse). That's the same attitude that is pervasive in these threads.

It's the idea that good people are "true" and McCain people are less than that.

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I'm being serious here - Adam I REALLY want to put the spears aside - Perhaps if I add to the requirements of my side to stop with the condescension?

Honestly, you KNOW we feel that way (morally superior, etc), and nothing's going to change that.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

don't tell me you don't use the same tone when you are reeling off McCain's list of conservative checkpoints, and openly referring to people who don't buy it as proof that he's conservative, as ignoramuses.

Seriously, meet me part way here.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

First, I do not speak for anyone but myself. All of my argumentative comments come as responses to anti-McCain comments and diaries.

Second, it is that feeling of "moral superiority" that leads to most of these fights. So if that isn't going away, I don't think any kind of "olive branch" is going to fix it.

Really, it comes down to the fact that right now we are in Win the Election phase. If you can't help McCain, then find someone you can help. Write about them, donate to them, raise their profile.

The frustrating thing to those of us trying to win right now is that if Fred had won the nomination we wouldn't be posting anti-Fred diaries all the time. We wouldn't be making a list of things we disliked and repeating them over and over. We wouldn't be creating insulting little icons to use.

So it's tough as a team player to realize the rules are different for you. You're willing to support the nominee. But your allies will only do so if it's their guy or someone with their exact views.
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"So it's tough as a team player to realize the rules are different for you. You're willing to support the nominee. But your allies will only do so if it's their guy or someone with their exact views."

That's at the very least a false generalization. Most of us are willing to support the nominee - see the post I wrote a couples months back on the topic. On the other hand, that doesn't give the nominee or his supporters license to dismiss or ridicule our issues and concerns. You can't deny that has happened. Also, please take care in lumping everyone critical of John McCain into our pile, because most of the bad actors aren't ours either.

No, I do not believe that it is my side's condescension is the source of the bulk of these fights. Mostly we're not in battle mode until either (1) McCain veers off the reservation, ala NCGOP, or (2) people get to tagging McCain as conservative.

And I believe I have laid out here above, in a way that is frankly gentle, why my side gets their backs up over that. You spout a list of policy positions, I spout core principles (and can spout out my own list of countering policy positions that are decidedly NOT conservative).

The fact that you are touchy about people calling McCain "not conservative" is somewhat mysterious to me. Back him all you want, really, I've NEVER tried to convince you otherwise. But your list of policy positions and his 82 ACU rating do not make a conservative.

When you can read Russell Kirk's essays, and honestly say "I see McCain in those", THEN you got something. Personally I'd say you got something in your eye, but that's just argumentative. But I sure the hell don't see him there. As you can see by the comments, I'm not alone.

It's frustrating to you that we still have this problem at RedState. Well, guess what, it's frustrating to me. It gets easier when you choose some expedience. Surrender JUST A LITTLE GROUND to the Fredheads and don't wave the "McCain is conservative" flag. My side has already surrendered enough (see the proposal), and I don't offer the term that we will cease calling him "not conservative". I proposed above, and now, that we won't WEAR IT OUT.

I hesitate to say "take it or leave it", but I think it's the best offer you're going to get.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

"...if Fred had won the nomination we wouldn't be posting anti-Fred diaries all the time." This doesn't carry much weight with those of us who remember the post-convention antics of the Rockafeller/Scranton repubs in '64, and how the John Warner types treated Ollie after he was the official GOP senate candidate. Seems to me that conservatives generally gripe a bit, then settle down after the convention and work for the party. Moderates have been known to work actively for the defeat of the candidates.

That won't happen this time. (Paulbots excepted.)

stop with the condescension, the mocking posts, upside down banners and the halo of "true conservatism" placed upon the fred head's heads..

McCainiacs will cease the endless arguments about McCain's conservatism, so long as Fred Heads stop their arguments that he is not and acknowledge that the only hope for conservatism in the white house in 2008 lies with John McCain.

FredHeads are good or on top only if you equate being 100% faithful to conservative principles as the ideal. Your ideal may not be along the some lines. Some might like to dip their pen in other ink on occasion and still feel "good" about it.

M Penny

One minor quibble. Fred lost a bit of fidelity once, IIRC.
It was a "yea" vote for McCain Feingold.
He did however repent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

It violates the terms of the peace deal we're trying to work out. 8*)

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

That might fall into the category of kissing the office hottie at the Christmas party when someone else put mistletoe over your head.

First, FDT acknowledges that it did not accomplish what he hoped (Clintons & China cash), and second he admitted it was a mistake. McCain can't wait for next year's Christmas party because he won't admit it was a bad idea.

M Penny

I did concede that he had repented.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

I mean, yah, obviously he's the only true conservative, he found it lying on the floor a few months before he started running for President!

Do I think this is fair? No. But it's no less fair then a lot of the charges leveled at McCain.

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

original, and I agree with them.

I guess I'm not only a FredHead but a FredHeart, too. ;-)

And I have another raft of McCain spams to delete unread. LOL.

You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

"agreeing to disagree".

To be concise, I basically have a Matalin/Carville marriage in reverse. We are both passionate about our political beliefs, and are diametrically opposed on at least several issues that we both believe are crucial for the nation. That being said, there are things that are more important to both of us, namely being the maintainance of a healthy happy household for our daughter and the maintaining of what is a loving, respectful, happy marriage. How is this possible? Simple. Neither of us begins conversations on issues that we know we can not come to agreement on, and perhaps more importantly, we trust that the other holds their beliefs in good faith.

So. . .what is my point? That the priority for (practically) everyone on this site is to see that John McCain become the next President of the United States. Some of us can not believe that this is what our choices have come down to. Some of us think that McCain is the best man for the office. Many of us fall somewhere in between. As political issues are peripheral to my happy marriage, the issue of whether John McCain is (a) conservative is peripheral to the goal of electing him as our 44th President. So. . .let's agree to disagree on that issue.

How can we do this? Ideally(IMHO), any use of the word conservative in a discussion of our nominee would be in relation to discussion of policy and not whether the label applies to the man. However, I doubt that this is feasible, so I will propose another solution. First, let's TRY and not voice our opinion on this issue as much as possible. Second, and MORE IMPORTANT, when someone we disagree with does go there, count to ten, drop and do pushups, scream into a pillow, or do anything that will help to NOT directly contradict the statement. That's right, I said it. . .let it go. Realize that no good can come of starting a flamefest on the issue. As much as I might vehemently disagree with some of you on this issue, I trust that everyone here holds their opposing view in good faith, and I hope I can get the same respect from you. I agree to disagree with you, and I hope you will not rub the issue in my face. Is that asking too much?

Let's all aim towards the common goal of electing the most Conservative candidate still standing to the Presidency.
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Be prepared! Find the bastards. And pile on!”
Karl Rove - "(T)he motto on the unit coin of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the Blackhorse."

"agreeing to disagree".

To be concise, I basically have a Matalin/Carville marriage in reverse. We are both passionate about our political beliefs, and are diametrically opposed on at least several issues that we both believe are crucial for the nation. That being said, there are things that are more important to both of us, namely being the maintenance of a healthy happy household for our daughter and the maintaining of what is a loving, respectful, happy marriage. How is this possible? Simple. Neither of us begins conversations on issues that we know we can not come to agreement on, and perhaps more importantly, we trust that the other holds their beliefs in good faith.

So. . .what is my point? That the priority for (practically) everyone on this site is to see that John McCain become the next President of the United States. Some of us can not believe that this is what our choices have come down to. Some of us think that McCain is the best man for the office. Many of us fall somewhere in between. As political issues are peripheral to my happy marriage, the issue of whether John McCain is (a) conservative is peripheral to the goal of electing him as our 44th President. So. . .let's agree to disagree on that issue.

How can we do this? Ideally(IMHO), any use of the word conservative in a discussion of our nominee would be in relation to discussion of policy and not whether the label applies to the man. However, I doubt that this is feasible, so I will propose another solution. First, let's TRY and not voice our opinion on this issue as much as possible. Second, and MORE IMPORTANT, when someone we disagree with does go there, count to ten, drop and do pushups, scream into a pillow, or do anything that will help to NOT directly contradict the statement. That's right, I said it. . .let it go. Realize that no good can come of starting a flamefest on the issue. As much as I might vehemently disagree with some of you on this issue, I trust that everyone here holds their opposing view in good faith, and I hope I can get the same respect from you. I agree to disagree with you, and I hope you will not rub the issue in my face. Is that asking too much?

Let's all aim towards the common goal of electing the most Conservative candidate still standing to the Presidency.
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Be prepared! Find the bastards. And pile on!”
Karl Rove - "(T)he motto on the unit coin of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the Blackhorse."

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

.

It is not really a compromise when you kick McCainiacs in the groin and throw out a list of demands in order to stop acting like babies.

nothing will be accomplished...how proud you must be of your oversized ego...be careful you night drown in it.

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

Hinz Rule even if they aren't trolls.
This is one of those times.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

acting like babies
nothing will be accomplished
oversized ego

delirious pain
mystifies barry, scary
soaring, raging libs

Bullock, Swearengen
make peace, temporarily
Hearst comes to Deadwood

He simply spoke for those of us who supported Fred and why we do not view Sen. McCain in the same light. As for the rest of your comment, you are the kind of McCainiac that this diary was aimed at--don't call us names and don't demand that we feel the same way you do about the R candidate. We have said that we would vote for him. What more do you want?

from your insane decree that only Fredheads can define "true conservatism", and to recognize the reality that John McCain and a lot of his supports around here are conservatives and stop treating us like the kid brother who has been hanging with the wrong crowd.

.

I was explaining MY side of it. I said so. I have identified key things that my side holds dear and believes firmly.

Your side and my side are simply NOT going to agree on particulars. I am proposing that you not wave the red flag in front of us, then get all defensive when we get militant.

Peace, Brando.

I said specifically that Russell Kirk defines what conservatism is, and not Fredheads. So that one is a false accusation.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

Babies don't often kick people in the groin.

No one of good character leaves behind a wasted life - John McCain

I wish I had a dollar for every well placed kick while changing their diaper!

LOL

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

from the side, and--when they got older--to push the grocery cart with straightened arms. Many near misses, but only three direct hits in seven years...one from each:)

n/t

"This is the future we can all look forward to when these cultist "society" creators are swept into power by the sodomites and coke fiends of the press corps."...GO

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

"I believe we must adjourn this meeting to some other place." - The last recorded words of Adam Smith.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

It is not really a compromise when you kick McCainiacs in the groin and throw out a list of demands in order to stop acting like babies.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

There is a new theory/thinking in the area of conflict resolution.

Conflicting resolution is mapped on the grid with Cooperativeness, extent to which one attempts to satisfy the concerns of others, along the x axis and
Assertiveness, extent to which one attempts to satisfy their own concerns, along the y axis.

If you are uncooperative and unassertive you are avoiding -- this results in a state of you lose and I win.

Now if you are cooperative and unassertive then you are accommodating and again the result is you lose and I win.

Now if you are uncooperative and assertive then is identified as competitive and the result is you win and I lose. This is also known as forcing.

If there is a balancing of assertiveness and cooperativeness it becomes a state of COMPROMISING --

now in the state of COMPROMISING the result is always I lose and you lose. You may have reached a decision but not a state of agreement. For years the Middle East Peace process has been based upon Israel compromising.

The optimum conflict handling solution is to get to a state of collaborating. In collaborating both parties are assertive about their positions and both are cooperative.

So skip the compromising and learn to collaborate.

M Penny

"shut up and get in line?"

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

As always Adam, you echo my points with a little more diplomacy and tact.

He said McCain himself is not conservative. There's an enormous difference.

that fred heads are "true conservatives" there by implicating that McCainiacs are anything but.

and it ain't there. I think you're a wee bit hypersensitive. He's referring to the "Shut up and get in line" crowd. If you're one of those (which, based on your prior appends, it appears perhaps you are), then go ahead and take umbrage. EPUs comments are correct with respect to that camp.

The "don't call your guy a conservative" part. The "you don't have to be a 'true' conservative" part. The whole idea that FredHeads and McCainiacs are different groups. They were my #1 and 2 and it was close. I like Fred a lot and if he weren't so old, would love him as a VP candidate. If he had won, I wouldn't be writing a bunch of "Fred sucks, here's why" and "Fred's not a conservative" and putting upside stickers of Fred's logo in my signature.

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Again, the comments are directed at a certain subset of McCain boosters who have been particularly rude and obnoxious sore winners. I don't count you in that group, as you have been outstanding in your efforts to provide objective analysis of McCain's positions...and in fact your writeups were considerably influential in my decision to (reluctantly) support the guy, rather than abstaining completely. So - congratulations to you for your fine work here on that front!

I think that Thompson supporters and McCain supporters ARE different groups. If they weren't, they wouldn't have supported different candidates. Can the Thompson supporters "cross over" (not the right term, but I'll use it anyway) and vote for McCain? Certainly. But there are certain policy positions that McCain holds that many conservatives simply cannot stand for (and those positions have been pounded on ad nauseum, so there's no point in repeating it here). And to many, those points of contention are critical issues. Those of us for which they ARE critical issues resent being told that they are "minor quibbles" or other such condescension. And those critical issues are traditionally conservative/GOP platform planks, so when the "presumptive" (I HATE that term) GOP candidate speaks and acts in ways that are in conflict with these traditional conservative points, it leads many of us to question a) if he IS a conservative, and b) what ELSE he's gonna do an about-face on if he's elected.

For Adam...I want to second the following...

Again, the comments are directed at a certain subset of McCain boosters who have been particularly rude and obnoxious sore winners. I don't count you in that group, as you have been outstanding in your efforts to provide objective analysis of McCain's positions...and in fact your writeups were considerably influential in my decision to (reluctantly) support the guy, rather than abstaining completely. So - congratulations to you for your fine work here on that front!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Sorry, earmarking and corruption ar not the big issues of the day. That type of talk is eactly why many conservtives don't take McCain's vision of conservatism seriously. Corruption is a byproduct of politics and is always the bane of the part yin power at the expense of the forces outside of power. Democrats aren't pro-corruption. Sure its fun to play good guys and bad guys. But its far from reality. Also, fighting corruption is dangerous. It is akin to fighting "dirty money" ehem McCain-Feingold. Or fighting lobbyists, who are as American as apple pie. Sure "good government" makes for a nice campaign rhetoric and will score a couple points. But it is not some great conservative battle.

Same for earmarks. This is the biggest red herring of all. It is a drop in th bucket as Fred Thompson has said. It has no bearing on our economy and budget. There is not one single Ameican whose life will be enhanced by this "great issue" of the day. Polticians will always try to reward those that get them elected and will always try to to do good for their constituents. There is more to government than headline issues. The yar elected to represent districts.

If Obama runs of issues like Iraq, oil, and helathcare and we come back with earmarks, it will make us look more aloof than ever.

Furthermore. the great anti-earmark crusaders are often entrenched Republicans like McCain or pols from true Red states like Oklahoma. If we are serious about gaining a majority, we need to help purple and blue state Republicans, we must recognize their need to deliver for their voters, whether it be money for parks or bridges or whatnot. Earmarks is a procedural issue. It all about how the money gets allocated. Its for poltical junkies and technocrats. Its not a conservative issue nor is it a great issue of the day.

I didn't expect you to agree with some of what I wrote. First, let me use the cop-out line : the Fredheads feel about it how we feel about it - what I wrote is what I think many of us feel. You can try to argue all the points, both broad and fine, and you can ridicule us, but I'm not seeing our guys seeing it your way anytime soon.

I also said that what I propose leaves both sides giving up some territory they would prefer not to. Don't you think that I'd just LOVE to jump up and down on McCain every time he gets silly? Look at my record for the last little while, and you'll see that I have toned donw my rhetoric quite a bit and in fact spoken very decently of McCain fairly often.

I gave some. How about you meet me there.

Your description of the common line on GWB is not what I believe, then or now. From the very first time I heard the terms "new tone" and "compassionate conservatism", I knew he was not one of my own.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

Just a typical, small town, white girl...

then again I only do the things that annoy you in response to diaries and comments. I'm not recalling the diary "Shut Up and Get in Line" that everyone here seems so upset about. While "Conservatives v. Moderates" is highly promoted.

My only problem with this diary is the condescending idea that Fredheads have some claim to conservatism and that supporting McCain is some kind of knock on a person. It underlies the whole diary and it's a false dichotomy.

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one...you are talking to a brick wall...but I applaud your tenacity and it is a shame really...you can see the responses from those who will never give an inch...did they have to respond..NO...but their ego's insist they must..it's a losing battle...seriously if you want to go off on a McCain bender there are other sites for that...just keep your posts here to lighter fare...oh I don't know..flowers, pussycats, puppies..but don't ever say McCain is not conservative..that will just get you 10 responses telling you to SUCK IT UP and don't dare talk about the might grail...

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

"Overall I think that's fair. But I must disagree with the idea that the McCain supporters aren't conservatives and Fredhead's are. That's self-serving."

Is this compromise supposed to be "admit McCain sucks and we'll stop criticizing him." Because in that case, it isn't a fair deal.

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Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Your description of the common line on GWB is not what I believe, then or now. From the very first time I heard the terms "new tone" and "compassionate conservatism", I knew he was not one of my own.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Adam C, I worked for McCain in 2000 and was in a pout when Bush was the nominee. However, I still voted for Bush and worked on the GOTV lawyer teams in 2000 and 2004.

McCain put a few knives in conservatives' backs over the last 7 years. You can't just ignore these events. Last year I worked myself into knots fighting the amnesty bill. I was very angry with McCain. Now in the debates when McCain said he heard the American people, we didn't trust Washington, and Washington needed to rebuild trust I was willing to give McCain the benefit of the doubt and let go of my anger.

I want to support McCain, but I will always be a FredHead. I am also a regular GOP donor and volunteer. I am leaving October/November open for vacation to spend time walking crucial precincts (this is the best method for getting out the vote); however, I need an olive branch from McCain and 2008 McCain supporters.

I don't expect it to be a Fred VP -- he doesn't want it and I don't like the way the ticket looks. But I need something more than "get over myself".

M Penny

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

McCain put a few knives in conservatives' backs over the last 7 years. You can't just ignore these events.

They don't see them as knives, and for those of us who do, they don't understand why we can't get over them. I used to spend much time on here stating my areas of agreement with McCain while passionately stating why I struggle to support him. It never seemed to be enough for parts of the McCain brigade. I not only needed to vote for the guy, I had to admit that he was the reincarnation of conservatism.

I'm sorry, adhering to the rule of law is a manifestly bedrock conservative principle. When you reward people in any way, shape or form for breaking the law (so where do I sign up to only have to pay income taxes for 3 of my last 5 years of income) it is not conservative. Period. Sigh!

"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I like McCain. In 2000 I had almost a hero worship admiration for him. My then spouse actually bought me the young McCain in his flight suit poster. I am 95% sure I will vote for McCain. The 5% is reserved because I am waiting for McCain to rebuilt that trust he talked about in the Florida debate. Now, I look at McCain the same say I did my now ex-husband after the first rocky patch. I stayed in the relationship but I took off the rose colored glasses. While I was willing to stay in the relationship, I refused to be the only one doing the heavy lifting.

Why did the marriage end -- because the husband took it for granted that I would honor my vows regardless of how many times he dishonored them. McCain romancing the Democrats, moderates, and RINOs reminds me of the couple who goes to an event and the husband spends all his time chatting up some bimbo and never having a moment to even be polite to the wife, or vice versa for that matter.

McCain owes us conservatives some respect. At least as much respect as he has for the liberals and progressives.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice --- shame on me.

M Penny

"McCain owes us conservatives some respect. At least as much respect as he has for the liberals and progressives."

Prolong the infighting. I'll leave this one. But this is the type of comment that lead to hours of in fighting.

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...walked the streets for him, put up signs in my yard, donated money, the whole nine yards. It was his penchant for leaving conservatives and the vast majority of his party on key issues at key times that resulted in him ending our relationship.

What the Adam's of the world don't seem to want to get (because it's certainly been explained enough times to him) is that it is McCain that distanced himself from so many conservative Republicans. If he didn't start moving to the left, then why did his ACU rating drop from its routinely mid-90s range in the 90s to the 62% it was in '06? I don't get how you can claim that an individual isn't left of where it was when his votes show that it has?

I'm not debating whether it was wise, or prudent, or principled or whatever. It is what it is--McCain's voting record today has moderated substantially from where it was 15 years ago. If it was now where it was then, not only would I be shouting his praises from the rooftops, I'm betting 99% of those who are holding their noses right now would be shouting it also.

What Adam doesn't understand, as is witnessed by his umbrage at your "respect" comment, is that McCain has, for whatever reasons, dissed the conservative movement, and his own party, on many issues in the past. To diss someone is to disrespect them. Thus, you live by the sword, you die by it. If, after his candidate disrespected a large portion of the conservative movement, Adam wants that portion to respect his candidate then he's going to have to show them the respect he many times has not in the past. It's a two way street.

"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

to have the hot dinner on the table and martini in hand when the hubby comes home after knocking a few back at happy hour with the "hottie" from office. He doesn't understand why maybe the wife has her panties in a bunch -- and thinks that something is wrong with her.

Conservatism isn't an open relationship.

Just trying to put this issue into terms Adam might understand.

M Penny

I care that you don't use a GOP site to attack the GOP nominee. If you want to do other things, great. If you can't support McCain fine.

But if you insist on impeding the GOP effort to win, that's not going unchallenged.

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We all got behind Bush and supported him through his many screw ups, at least until the Harriet Miers fiasco was a bridge too far. What did the get us? We are going to be critical of McCain until he shows us he is for real.

I was all ready to accept him until he started making noises like he was going to go for Amnesty 2. I don't think he can help trying to throw the party regulars under the bus.

As for you, I can't figure out why you waste so much time defending him, he doesn't need your defense, and he doesn't care what we think of him, he has made that obvious.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Did you miss his judges talk? His support for the War and the GWOT? His tax plans that is about more tax cuts including a major corporate tax cut? His independence from the Rs who have embraced the pork barrel culture of corruption?

I defend him because I think we need more Rs who will stand up against the pork barreling corruption of the current Congress and we need more people who will oppose things like the Medicare Drug Bribe and the Bridge to Nowhere.

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I don't believe him. I hope I am wrong, but I have been around a long time and I call em like I see em.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

C'mon Adam, if we're members of the GOP ourselves, why wouldn't we use a GOP forum do discuss what we see as wrong with the Party as it is currently constituted...ESPECIALLY if we see the Party driving off a cliff?

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

but much of the bellyaching is about being "better" or "more conservative" or the "TrueConservative." That's not helpful to conservatism or the GOP... kind of like your signature.

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and your to be the judge if we're just belly aching instead of trying to point out real problems that need to be addressed in order to win?

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Just about any other moderator would have banned you for the personal attack.

I would think you would have learned your lesson on that.

Yeah, I'm not quick with the trigger. Of course according to half the posters here I'm trying to silence them.... heh.

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"What the Adam's of the world don't seem to want to get (because it's certainly been explained enough times to him) is that it is McCain that distanced himself from so many conservative Republicans."

You're on a Republican site that has endorsed McCain for President. Anti-McCain diaries don't belong here. That's all I'm saying. No matter how aggrieved one is, this is a site dedicated to getting McCain elected. Criticism that helps that effort is great. But just blatant anti-McCain writing to vent doesn't help that effort.

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I thought RedState was a conservative site? n/t

There is a difference between being a Conservative and being a Republican.

The later is a political party, the former is a set of principles.

M Penny

"I will look for people in the cast of John Roberts, Samuel Alito, and my friend the late William Rehnquist – jurists of the highest caliber who know their own minds, and know the law, and know the difference." - John McCain

it is now both. I'm not sure when that shift happened.

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about the crusade you're on. In the following sentence, replace the word "McCain" with "conservative" or "Republican"

Criticism that helps that effort is great. But just blatant anti-McCain writing to vent doesn't help that effort.

For 7 years, McCain countless times didn't criticize to 'help the Republican effort'; he vented just to vent. I have said many times on this site that it's not just that McCain voted against the vast majority of his fellow Republicans on critical issues, it's the way he took delight in hoisting them on a petard.

How did his bashing of the NC GOP help the Republican Party? You are asking your fellow conservatives and GOPers to talk only in civil, respectful tones about a guy who routinely has, and still continues, to have a penchant for speaking about us in a very disrespectful tone. Isn't he the leader? Isn't he the one that should set the tone? Why are you holding the 'masses' to a standard that you're not holding your leader?

Do things like McCain ripping the GOP ad in NC make a difference to people? You bet it does! I live in MN, and Norm Coleman's voting record is no more conservative than McCain's (mid-60s ACU) And yet, not only will I gladly vote for Norm this fall against his joke of an opponent (literally--it's Al Franken) but I have sent him money and supported him at the county convention at which I was a delegate.

Why? Because when Norm casts a vote that is at odds with my conservative philosophy, or the philosophy of the GOP, he does it quietly, explains his rationale, and moves on. He doesn't run to the nearest MSM outlet and start lecturing the GOP on how screwed up they are.

So, if you wish for people to start treating McCain with respect, you might want to use your influence with his campaign to suggest that leadership starts at the top. And for you to demand a higher level of respect from the readers of this site than McCain has often demonstrated over the years is not only hypocritical, it's not in sync with human nature. That's why there is such a hypersensitivity to McCain by so many here at RS; he, and some of his supporters such as you, are insisting on a level of discourse and constructive criticism which he so often has failed to engage in himself.

"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

I'll only add that John McCain is a chronic and habitual violator of Ronald Reagan's Eleventh Commandment, which makes those of us that grew up with Reagan as President very hesitant to trust him.

As counterpoint so Adam won't pop a blood vessel I'll note this: I didn't trust Bush Sr. in 1992 either (no new taxes, my ***), but he was still the best option running, and I voted for him.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

debacle

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/gamecock/2008/apr/29/in_hinzsight_mccain_c...

When we win, we must declare victory.

Next, his planned 7/15 speech to the hate group La raza

we can win that one too

if we have the guts

I do

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Really, I do. And though I know I'm preaching to the choir, my point remains that he said it in the first place having never seen the ad. I can't recall _one_ instance in the last 7 years when McCain has gone after the 'other' side with the same vituperative, shoot-from-the-hip style that he routinely trains on his 'friends'.

The fact that he "caved" on this gives tangible evidence that the screaming _does_ do some good. I don't condone some of the more visceral comments that have been made on here about McCain, but, again, human nature being what it is, why should anyone be surprised, shocked, angered, etc. when people respond to John in the same manner he has treated them in the past.

And, btw, coach, can I play anyway?

"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

there's no question about that whatsoever. You are the coach.

Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO

I'll be Manu Ginobli if I have to, although I'm a Lakers/Pistons fan, so I really want to be Kobe :-)

Someone's got to punch the hippies.

during the Bad Boy years. They called him the microwave because he would get really hot coming off the bench.

Jordan was the greatest to ever touch a basketball, Kobe if he wins this year becomes the official heir to the throne. Although I love Rodman I will say-but the Pistons were real thugs in their heyday. I like em now because the Bulls are a lost cause and I'm moved to Michigan and their the Michigan team I decided to adopt.

Someone's got to punch the hippies.

showed how the run and gun West could be stopped dead in their tracks.

The Bulls played defense as well---the Pistons tought them how.

of the year and a nine time member of the First All Defensive Team, not to mention he won the steals title 3 times as well. He was simply a legend on both ends of the court. And I think the Pistons title with Larry Brown wasn't so much run and gun as much as it was a team vs two superstars who had reached a boiling point with each other, although the Pistons were definitely good. And I love Rasheed-he's awesome, even if he is a nutcase, but then again, I loved Rodman when he palyed for the Bulls too.

Someone's got to punch the hippies.

I am stuck in the 80s---just call me a FredHead

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

You didn't see the upsets that you see in the modern NBA. There were few teams really capable of knocking off the champion in those years.

Look at this years playoffs. Several teams are truly in the running to go all the way.

genobli!

but man, parker is cool too

and Chris paul

wow

what a game

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

The torch has been passed-the Spurs dynasty dies with CP3 this year. I love the playoffs as my second favorite time of the sports year. :-) 3 months til football starts GC...getting impatient for some mouthhitting.

Someone's got to punch the hippies.

in town. White Sox look good. My money is on the Spurs, but CP3 is the bomb.

Jordan? maybe
see also Jabbar

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

I don't want to list his stats but from Wikipedia
Jordan's individual accolades and accomplishments include five MVP awards, ten All-NBA First Team designations, nine All-Defensive First Team honors, fourteen NBA All-Star Game appearances and three All-Star MVP, ten scoring titles, three steals titles, six NBA Finals MVP awards, and the 1988 NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award. He holds the NBA record for highest career regular season scoring average with 30.1 points per game, as well as averaging a record 33.4 points per game in the playoffs. In 1999, he was named the greatest North American athlete of the 20th century by ESPN, and was second to Babe Ruth on the Associated Press's list of athletes of the century.

Come on GC-no one can compare to #23. Kobe is the second coming of Jordan, and Lebron will be his only rival next year. Cavs Lakers is going to be the next great rivalry with the two greatest players of the new generations.

White Sox look good-ask me about baseball in July. GC-I'm a Texan, and there is God and football, and not necessarily in that order. :-)

Someone's got to punch the hippies.

so he never should have been given the defensive player of the year award.

Joe Dumars was the only player in the league who could individually cover MJ--MJ has said as much.

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Named an all-star by a member of the Top 50 Conservative all-time all-stars on RS. (But, judging from the downthread comments, did you clear this with GC?)

"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Men see Hillary as their shrill ex-wife (per Rush). Women see McCain as the hubby who continues to break his vows?

Definitely rubbing folks' noses in it...;-)

You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

I didn't see it as counter productive to the olive branch at all. It was funny and it reminded us of some realities we face with Johnny Mac, in a non-threatening way, IMO.
I guess others mileage may have varied.
You are still the bomb!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

It was intended to be satire. It was just bad timing, or I'm lousy at it.

"After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood." -Fred Dalton Thompson

It the reasons were things that help McCain. If you joked about Hillary doing it because she trusted him on military leadership or to answer the phone at 3 AM. If she did it because he understood working class whites or military folks.

But instead it was a long list of conservative gripes.

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Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

The whole point of the satire was to have Hillary point out the few times he worked across the aisle and that somehow that would make him appear to be a liberal like her, even though that's the most ridiculous thing in the world.

I've never thought McCain was a liberal, and ridiculed anyone that said he was.

As I said before, I'm apparently just not any good at satire.

I'm not going to defend my support for McCain, because I see no reason to do so. Everyone's just on edge right now. Maybe it's the delayed spring weather. For whatever reason, I'm done with this.

"After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood." -Fred Dalton Thompson

And from what I can tell, things are mostly okay in CO (except for the Rox. Another loss to the Cardinals last night. Oh, and tell em to stop bothering to run on Ankiel. It's not a good idea.)

Here's a perfect example of "Shut up and get in line"!

It the reasons were things that help McCain. If you joked about Hillary doing it because she trusted him on military leadership or to answer the phone at 3 AM. If she did it because he understood working class whites or military folks.

But instead it was a long list of conservative gripes.

You didn't say shut up and get in line in so many words...It's what we hear though...We can't even have a little fun at Johny Macs expense without being accused of attacking him...

I LOVED Ronald Reagan and I had a fine time making fun of him over the Bed Time for Bonzo thing, and the Jelly Beans, and the long naps...and he had fun poking fun at himself

But mention Johny Mac...and we're participating in personal attacks and trying to ensure his defeat in November.

You've really gotta lighten up

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

My Comparitive Politics teacher was talking about his journey from beig a liberal to a conservative, and he mentioned how he was a Reagan Supporter and even had a jar of jelly beans. I didn't have a freaking clue what he was talking about. I doubt my classmates did either. So fill me in.

See here.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Reag was famous for always having Jelly Beans at cabinet meetings as Governor and later as President. I've always been of the opinion, knowing how mischievous he could be, that he brought them ones and someone made fun of him, so he always had them available from then on!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

...graphic, you figuratively spit on President Reagan's grave. I'll explain quickly: by attacking John McCain, you are acting counter to everything Reagan taught about the party, the coalition, and about winning elections.

Ace, I'm not complaining about the upside-down juvenilia; you're making a point you wish to make. However, I'll ask you not to associate yourself with the President.

you can guess the rest!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

doc will love it.
EPU-sorry for the threadjack. It's over now.
Cheers and mocha fraps and all that. :>)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

I'm not going to self-promote in this comment either.

If you don't know where my blog is, you can use the contact form to contact me.

BTW, I'm going to Stuttgart after all. I'll make sure to wave when I get into town. :-)

"After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood." -Fred Dalton Thompson

It was a way to list all of the grievances without any of the good sides. It didn't talk about executive leadership, judges, abortion, marriage, the War, earmarks, spending, etc. It was just a funnier way of making a bunch of anti-McCain statements.

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Night Twister is a good foot soldier and will step in line come November. He was just having some fun at the expense of Hillary and poking Johnny Mac a little.
Seriously, there has been much worse done on this site.
And I must say, there of those of us, myself included that have done much to try to rally the troops around Johnny Mac despite being very disappointed in the very things NT listed.
Lastly, I'm not much in the mood for a lecture, particularly in this thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

from "true conservatives" to the rest of us.
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It was offered as a compromise.
You are lecturing me and NT over a perception of a funny blog.
We have both conceded that others mileage may have varied.
And, I would dare say you are not reading the blog in the spirit of compromise given your repeated attempts to bludgeon your points.
We're done here. Last word is yours if you need it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...

"We are the True Conservatives and your guy got lucky. We will present a compromise where we do what we should be doing and support the R nominee who won the primary in exchange for you submitting to the idea that your guy is not a conservative."

When people come down off their high horse of being the "true" conservatives and treat us all as equals, it wouldn't be so bad.

My first comment was the the deal was fair. But it cannot stop people from saying McCain is conservative.
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Overall, he ran the best campaign of those who ran. He appealed to the greatest number of voters in the states that mattered by positioning himself as the most desirable candidate to those voters.

Sure he had help from the media, but ultimately he was able to convey his ideas - or a sense of comfort/trust/whatever- better than the others, and he's the nominee because of it, whether some of us like it or not.

Whether he's a true Conservative, or takes conservative positions no longer really matters. Should he not win in November, I am sure we'll hear much about how we should have had a more conservative candidate, etc, etc. But by the end of year 1 for Hillary or Obama, all of us will wish we had at least a McCain in office.

I think it would be helpful to get everyone focused back on the original point of the post - finding some common ground to help get him elected.

We may not be able to help him here much at RS, but I do believe we can hurt him if we keep up the bickering.

The greatest single cause of Atheism today is Christians who profess Jesus with their lips & then go and deny him by their lifestyle. That's what an unbelieving world simply finds..unbelievable -Brennan Manning

when you decree that Fred Heads are the true conservatives and the rest need to stop calling their candidate a conservative or even arguing why. It's insane.

I quit listing my grievances with McCain months ago...I still jump on the CFR thing a lot because it's come back to hit him in the jaw...but I got tired of listing everything as I'm sure you all got tired of hearing it.

I think the point EPU made and one I made with Adam earlier is that You think he's conservative and we can never convince you that he is not, we think he is not conservative and you will never convince us that he is.

We've gone far beyond kicking a dead horse and EPU has made an attempt to smooth things over yet you and Adam can't let sleeping dogs lie!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Feel free to assert that McCain is a conservative.

We will feel free to assert that he is NOT a conservative.

I will refrain from bringing up the topic, but like you, I will not sit idly by and let certain things go without a response.

We can always be civil while disagreeing.

We don't need any more blogs here saying:
(1) McCain is conservative
(2) McCain is not a conservative

(1) and (2) are simply going to cause fights between us.

How about:
(3) McCain is by far the most conservative candidate in the race
(4) McCain is head and shoulders above the rest

AND I deleted the content myself after comments were closed. But please, make sure you beat on it awhile longer.

You can count on me, sir. I'll just shut up now and get in line.

"After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood." -Fred Dalton Thompson

Honestly, who says "shut up now and get in line." Because I've never said it.

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is a fairly accurate summation of things like this:
"All of the above should be done without concession from the McCainiacs, if the "true conservatives" do in fact care about conservatism at all."

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Just a typical, small town, white girl...

First, we fight for our guy in the primary. Second, we fight to win the election. Third, we argue about what to do. The third step is usually more fun if the person in power is an ally.

Right now we are on step 2. We should be doing things to win. We had a great 2-3 months of fighting every day. That phase is over, or it should be. We now focus on winning. If you can't bring yourself to helping McCain win for President, find a SEN or REP race and focus on it. But this is winning time.

After the election, we can go back to arguing about what to do. But diaries whining about McCain being the nominee are not helping us win and in some cases they are validating people who want an excuse to fight against McCain or vote 3rd party.

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This is why people keep saying that you want us "get in line and shut up". Personally I think it is good for us to have these conversations about who we are, before the convention. Now after the convention I will be with ya 100%

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

The problem is there is a disagreement about how we win and the shut up and get in line stance isn't a way to accomplish the goal of winning!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

McCain supporters around here acting disrespectful to those who have disagreements with McCain.

The proposal should be that Republicans and Conservatives who care about conservatism should stop attacking, mocking and making lame satirical remarks towards our nominee.

The catch is that you don't get to claim that McCain is conservative in everything he does. He isn't. If you really want a fight on the matter we can give it to you but we'd rather support your guy now.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

I haven't seen McCain supporters around here acting disrespectful to those who have disagreements with McCain.

Just from you in this blog:

"I'm not going to deny reality"

"if the "true conservatives" do in fact care about conservatism at all"

"stop acting like babies"

"your insane decree"

"It's insane"

Physician, heal thyself.

---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.

The inability to be self deprecating and laugh at oneself is usually a sign of small minded insecurity...I can see getting outraged at some comments I and others have made in the heat of the moment that crossed the line but I can't for the life of me understand th humorlessness here when it comes to discussing our candidates pratfalls!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

before McCain won, it was at or above the level for 2000 (the last competitive primary). But D turnout has been astronomical. The change is increased D turnout not apathetic R turnout.

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There is a lot of "excitement" on the D side, especially in these later contests where many people's votes affect the nomination for the first time in their lives.

Does it mean D's will come out more than R's? Only time will tell, but I am still optimistic that if the R's can start running like they want to win, they can.

Do they want to win? They haven't been and aren't running like they do... with a few exceptions here and there but not enough to turn the tide.

http://hillbillypolitics.com

26% of Republicans voted against McCain in Ohio and NC...yet we're all supposed to put on a front as if there is nothing wrong. Adam, I really can't see what we accomplish by closing our eye's to reality. The emperor has no close and we're doing him no favors by telling him he's dapper in his new set of non existent cloths!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

Most of those will switch back right after doing their best to sew chaos on the other side.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

Agreed -- the VP choice will tell me all I need to know. Do I open the checkbook and send in the max, do I sign up to volunteer, do I continue to close one eye, or do I just stay home.

McCain needs our money. The indies and moderates are not campaign contributors. You need true believers -- Obama has them in spades (no pun or racial overtones meant).

M Penny

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

You can't look at Hillary and Obama and get exited to support the Repub? And the last sentence was out of line, no pun meant, then don't add the crap in parentheses.

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

The compromise in question is about how two different groups of people with similar goals can get along and work together despite a few serious differences. John McCain's victory in the primaries does not invalidate arguments and rights of supporters of other candidates.

Logging on with another identity "No King But Paul", and doing one offering to bring the PaulTards in if Johhny Mac will offer his a cabinet position. Like Secretary of Crazy. I understand that McCain does not intend to carry over Paul Krugman from the Bush Administration at that position.

Macho, I'm not sure exactly who you're aiming at. Is it me? I think my position was a bit condescending, a bit preachy, and perhaps presumptuous in deigning to speak on behalf of Fredheads. But the way I see it, there is a definite and growing rift, and it's between Fred people (with a few Romneys, AFAICT) and McCain people.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

..., I think, a response to the apparent audacity of the leftover supporters of a guy who got about 1% of the overall primary vote, then faded away into the black, to act as though they're in a position to dictate any terms at all.

And yet we have this very tangible rift here, and quite a bit of unrest and malaise. It's much less about Fred himself than it is the fact that he awoke a long-slumbering Balroc.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

Being a Fredhead isn't just about Fred -- it is shorthand for expressing being a conservative first, then a Republican because that is the party that best supports those conservative ideals.

By your logic, I guess National Review writers should cut back on expressing opinions because they endorsed Romney.

M Penny

....I promised some valued friends that I'd lay off the "Romney-bashing" for a while, so no further comment on that. :-)

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

Look...I can't think of anyone...who hasn't said Fred wasn't their number 2...He was mine. He could have been a consensus candidate for all of us if he'd have shown more than a passing interest in winning the nomination....I think the crack about how many votes he garnered is out of line because Ideologically he fit the bill pretty well!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

But the way I see it, there is a definite and growing rift, and it's between Fred people (with a few Romneys, AFAICT) and McCain people.

You can throw former Hucksters in there too EPU

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

for that matter. Like me. Yeah, I'll say it. But to be honest 2nd to last place and 3rd to last were pretty close.

"Hey, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm a whale biologist."

"Reply to this" is my friend... reply to this is my friend...

It's much better than the upside down McCain and other graphics and makes the point quite well. It also pretty much sums up the argument here.

But maybe it's time to change it for something a little less confrontational to our McCain supporters?

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

I'm not kidding. And they're HI-larious.
however, if it will go AT ALL toward ending the nonsensical hostilities, I'm for it.

.

The greatest single cause of Atheism today is Christians who profess Jesus with their lips & then go and deny him by their lifestyle. That's what an unbelieving world simply finds..unbelievable -Brennan Manning

For those who follow "Bones", you understand! Thank you and good night, C.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

It's been done a couple of times in the last year, but there's really no good answer. Perhaps a new perspective on it would be of interest.

I've been promising and not delivering on a series of diaries going over, item by item, the Russell Kirk "10 Conservative Principles" essays, which are considered benchmarks.

And as you mentioned, that topic has been raised a few times over the last year. We should do more.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

I really don't think that conservatism is really something about which you can have one or two big discussions and expect people to understand it well.

For one thing, at RS there always will be new members, so we can't expect a few occasional major discussions to reach them (and correct me if I'm wrong; it tends to be newer posters who stir up the most heated emotions due to relative inexperience at talking civilly on forums.)

What I'm suggesting is that people work to sustain a community where theoretical learning about conservatism (as well as doing practical work) is the norm. It should be happening often. The danger is that that's all we do, just discuss and talk; but we need to do it anyway, and if we err too badly, we deserve to lose.

BigGator5.net

Is Fred just a representation of your conservative beliefs? There's more to it, but that's the gist. I thought I explained it up above -- see the part that refers to music. He articulated core conservative principles and American exceptionalism in such a way that those whose hearts beat that way found perfect resonance.

So much less about Fred himself than it is about conservatism - however FWIW, we also thought Fred was bitchin' cool.

i>Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

What I don't get is why the need to still hold onto that.

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It sums up a whole set of principles in one easy-access word. In addition, it reminds us of some very good memories - the same reason we like wearing silky undergarments.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

I won't say anything...just wondering about your gender?

I always assumed you were a man?

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

too. We might need to have a thread proclaiming our sex (not gender), i am all man, if you don't believe it, I'll be your huckleberry.

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

The greatest single cause of Atheism today is Christians who profess Jesus with their lips & then go and deny him by their lifestyle. That's what an unbelieving world simply finds..unbelievable -Brennan Manning

Have no fear, I'm a dude. Apparently I'm a stud in this crowd. Nobody wears silky boxers?

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

Oh, maybe you don't need to know that much about me.

"Hey, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm a whale biologist."

...uh...never mind.

Night Twister
Veterans For McCain

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I'm a brief guy who sometimes wears boxers...I save thu silk & satin for the bed

:>)

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

that Fred is used as a symbol because he was/is loved for his substance and not symbolism....

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Fred expressed conservative principles without reservations, he didn't say -- but we have to reach across the aisle and get along, he didn't suck up to the media and lap up being fawned over by the press, he spoke to us as the adults we are and not the whinning babies looking for a nanny state, or those who want to believe in empty slogan of hope and change. Fred didn't couch his words.

Mainly, Fred doesn't call the enemy "friend".
There was nothing sleazy, overly slick, or potentially untrustworthy about Fred.

Fredhead & Fredheart Forever

M Penny

in the time frame of March 2007-Jan 2008. I was that from March 2007 until about mid-Dec 2007. I just don't understand the continuation of it. At least Reagan served 2 terms (arguably elected 3 times).

I don't get how the best qualities of Fred are ascribed to "C"onservative, but the worst qualities of him aren't?

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Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

and that's the problem.
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I jumped up and punched the ceiling with enthusiasm when he told that NPR idiot that he wouldn't be doing any show of hands!!!!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I loved that! Too bad there weren't more of those moments.

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Then we should stop using Fred since he and most of us are Federalists and just use the Term Federalist.

Continually referring back to Fred gives Adam and others the ability to marginalize our concerns by saying we're just mad cause our guy didn't win.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

but I totally agree Federalist has more power than Fredhead. And btw, I like Fred Thompson. I have most of his movies, even the one where he wears a Superman costume "Barbarians at the Gate". There is nothing about Fred Thompson that bothers me, other than the fact that he could have been the president of the United States, on par with George Washington, if he took the think seriously.

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

I meant nothing against Adam...The line that we're mad because our guy didn't win is one of his favorite tools...he has a point on some...but not all cases.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

but I love and RESPECT him and the same could be said as to why I "cling" :laughs: to Fred Thompson....he to me was everything President Bush was in 04...tough, solid, not afraid to call out the left...yet just like President Bush after the election Fred could never get his message out and the reality of that was disheartening and yet I would fight for him as I do President Bush...I can do battle for both.......to me he and President Bush 04 were throwbacks to a pre PC world....I don't live in it and I don't want Conservative Republican candidates living in it either...I want my candidates locally and nationally to speak their heart and mean it and not to cowtow to the media wing of the Democrat party....and there is why I am still a Fredhead and a Bushbot!!!!

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

I just don't get it.

"After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood." -Fred Dalton Thompson

I got it then, I just don't get it NOW. As I said, I was a FredHead. I have no problem supporting McCain at this point. I don't get why people are hanging onto Fred The Failed Candidate.

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I've written blogs supporting him and he's on top on my SlateCard. I don't get why people keep saying I haven't moved on, and that I don't support him.

It's not Fred. It's what Fred said.

"After two years in Washington, I often long for the realism and sincerity of Hollywood." -Fred Dalton Thompson

And I wrote blogs in support of Fred! (and why he made me swoon). I'm just not understanding the not-moving-on part. Conservatism can move forward without Fred!, therefore, I don't see the need to hang onto Fred (or some ethereal manifestation of Fred!).

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it's like saying "Reaganite." It describes our basic positions in a single word.

And no, I won't let go of Reagan, either. ;)

.

It's a division that Reagan wouldn't make.

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I told them Fred would let them down. I worked on Capitol Hill in 1994, I was a nothing, so no need to ask questions, but I was on the Repub side in the center ring. Anyway, they put Fred up to give the Repub rebuttal to a Clinton SOTU, the hype was all over the place, he was the next Reagan, and the guy flopped like a pancake without yeast.

I warned the Fredheads he would let them down. But I am so conservative, I switched to Fred knowing the ship was sinking, and my "guy" went down. And lets face it, compared to Hillary, our guys did not know what it meant to fight 'til the last dog dies. :)

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

The point most of the anti-compromise/bipartisanship folks here would make is that seldom does that ball seem to bounce the way of us getting what we want in the end. It usually seems that we just get what the other side wants... in our end.

The greatest single cause of Atheism today is Christians who profess Jesus with their lips & then go and deny him by their lifestyle. That's what an unbelieving world simply finds..unbelievable -Brennan Manning

When have we ever eliminated a single unnecessary government agency?

When have we ever cut spending...And I don't mean lessening the increase?

When have we ever repealed a single piece of bad legislation?

Reaching across the isle has meant giving the Dems what they want since I can remember and it always ends the same way...we lose because the government grows one way or the other!

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I've said my piece. I'm there.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

if these guys can't tell the difference between McCain and Obama, then what is their major malfunction?

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

We can tell the difference between McCain and Obama.

McCain will screw us over 15% of the time.

Obama will screw us over 100% of the time.

The math is pretty easy. We would prefer someone 100% on our side, but will get behind someone who's only 85%.

We just don't like it.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

If I had a choice, McCain would not be our nominee.

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

I'm being lectured to by the site's religion-is-the-root-of-all-evil zealot.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

n/t

.

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

and he's been gone for a while now

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Hello, fellow Texan - you're not all that late, it went up about 1:30pm, but in RedState world, yeah, you're a bit late to the party.

Let me respond by saying that I disagree strongly that I've put up an unusually strenuous test for what constitutes conservatism. Let's play "Analogy". I'll go first.

If I held up the Senator Cornyn, and I measured him thusly: because you voted in Jan 2005 to elevate revolting RINO backstabber Arlen Specter to the chair of Judiciary, when you had a chance to make a stand for conservatism but instead knuckled under to the "good old boy" network - THEREFORE YOU ARE NOT REALLY A 'TRUE' CONSERVATIVE, in spite of an otherwise stellar career as - okay, THAT would be ridiculous. Ditto for anybody if I pick out a couple of votes or statements from his career.

In my diary, if you read the bolded part that describes the core conservative principles in a nutshell - dude, that's your average Texan or rural person anywhere in America. The word has a meaning, it's not overly strenuous.

What I am asking is that, because the term "conservative" is very deeply held to me (and many others, judging by the recent nasty business at RedState), I don't want it misused.

As for #3, I roll in all ways with Fred, but he's not my boss. Of course he uses the word conservative for McCain. They are pals, and I don't begrudge Fred his perceptions or opinions of what is ultimately a good man (McCain).

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

You've always got a freebie from me! Part of the deal is, if McCain strays drastically from the reservation, we can shoot arrows at him - but as nicely as possible.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

I shall say nothing untoward about the Republican candidate....unless he goes off the reservation.

Sweet of you to offer me a freebie on the kissyface stuff...

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

the same hate group. Will McCain go there and denounce La Raza and Lindsey?

Is there nothing McCain might decide to wake up and do any old morn, that we must only politely harumph over and then...

anything?

Speaking to hate group and NOT denouncing the hate.

problem here

My whole life has been defined by fighting racism. I left the dems when they became the racists not only by advocating race based laws and treating blacks like helpless victim dependant children but also by ABIDING RACIAL HATRED FROM FARRAKHANS AND SHARPTONS AND JULIEN BONDS.

Please John, say it ain't so!

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

go in front of LaRaza and not pander....but if he does I am writing a blog...I hope it just costs the $25.00 and not my right to post here....only time will tell...I will mellow out for the time being...I am patient it is a conservative trait don't cha know :-0

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

as I wait for Bill and Hillary to switch to the GOP!

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

don't know the details...anyone?

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

revolving door, kiss on the wrist, more air time.

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion

___________________________________________________________

Molon Labe!

My father-in-law once got stuck at the front of a line of cars when he had organized one of his stupid shut downs here in St. Louis. He jokes to this day that he could have saved the world a lot of trouble that day.

Don't tell my wife, but I think it may have been worth it (joking okay!)

Well I don't know, the local Fredheads seem to have signed on to it, and Adam - frankly, he's got some decent points. Brando, well, what can I say. It ain't all settled, and this diary is less of a truce than a cease-fire offer, and not especially humble at that. There's more work to do on both sides.

I think several diaries in the last few days are along the lines of 'let's make some peace here, and pull together', along with some explanation of why our side is pretty testy. I dare say Martin's diary along similar lines was a good bit more scholarly than mine.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

I agree. I think it's gone down well overall. But really there isn't much McCain supporters can do differently. Notice that all these "fights" are on anti-McCain diaries. So if "your side" stops writing anti-McCain diaries, the fights almost entirely stop. So if Fredheads are happy to write about other races/issues, then this will probably "work."

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but I do not agree that all these fights are on anti-McCain diaries. Most are, but I call it 70%, not 90%. I can recall specifically that both you, absentee, and others, have produced multiple diaries in which you are touting McCain's putative conservatism, in so many words.

And IMHO, if we pick a date well after McCain became the last one standing (to get past the early denial and rant days), I dare say that a healthy percentage (30-40%)of the anti-McCain diaries have been inspired by current events -- i.e., things McCain and/or his campaign have said and done since securing the nomination. You will not agree with this, but it is my belief that he has wandered early and often in this campaign from conservative bona fides. Any talk about AGW, about ANWR, about "Big Drug as bad guys", and other examples of McCain playing to the center, you know, I'm sorry but the Fredheads object. The deep mistrust we have is not paranoia. Maverick McCain has earned that mistrust from a large body of work over the years. I wish you would acknowledge that.

It is my perception that, post-denial, for the most part the Fredheads have been decently behaved (not "superbly behaved") when McCain is not showing off his tin ear. When he touts legitimately conservative things like judges, the war, pork, we've been supportive, yes? No? Maybe?

Let me also address something you said somewhere else on the page. You assert that we refuse to acknowledge the points on which he tracks with conservatism. Dude, come on. I myself and other Fredheads ROUTINELY acknowledge those things. In the original post at the top I make such reference, and I bet no less than 5 Fredheads on this page have done the same.

What we are saying, and I bet it's been explained no less than 500 times somewhere on RedState, is that those would be fine and compelling evidence, IF NOT for those "other things". We are not saying he's liberal or leftist, I'm not even convinced of moderate or squish. You seem to have trouble acknowledging those "other things", because you seem to run to those things of yours any time these "other things" get brought up.

You insistently claim and defend that McCain is conservative, even when not provoked, and I just have to say, no way. Not even close. It is this sticking point that will cause no peace in the valley.

If you want RedState pulling as one for John McCain, it is that simple. You do not have to change your mind on it, but you must drop it. I've said before and I'll repeat: every day that I embrace McCain is a tough day for me, but I do it when he doesn't make it impossible. It is not because I dislike him, though I do. It is because the conservative principles that I hold dear are not held dear by that man. I have to be content with "but he's good on items x,y, and z".

Now if I can suck it up, man up, and support our candidate, YOU can drop the insistence that he's a conservative, even though you believe it to your core.

Kill the terrorists
Protect the borders
Punch the hippies -- Frank J

I agree... there have been very few unprovoked "anti-McCain" blogs here. But when J-Mac does things that are decidedly against principles we hold dear, somebody's gonna speak up.

It's the fact that anytime we do, somebody has to come out and complain and say, "yeah, well, he won, so get over it," -- that's where we get that good ol' "shut up and get in line" vibe.

Right now, the (R)s haven't even had our convention yet, and the Dems are still busy lambasting each other. Frankly, I'd prefer if the McCain die-hards would suck up and deal if I decide to wax anti-McCain every now and then until AFTER the convention.

Many other fredheads and I agreed, in the spirit of cooperation, however, not to do that. But on those occasions in which McCain goes off the reservation, until Erick or somebody else decides to start banning people for getting irritated and writing about it, people are going to have to deal with the fact that it'll get brought up.

For the most part, we already said we'd vote McCain... and I think that, as EPU has said, we've been just as quick to jump on board when he does something deserving of praise. At the very least, it can't be pretended that Fredheads are focusing only on the negatives.

I think we've been asking (via EPU) for some pretty simple concessions in the name of compromise.
.

instead of me cut and pasting it.

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I think the important thing is focusing on winning. So diaries criticizing McCain that are trying to help are one thing. Diaries that criticize him in the "I'm more conservative and better than you" manner are not.

I wrote this example in another thread:

Good Example: "McCain could have dealt with the NC GOP ad better than he did. Obama even says that Wright is a legitimate issue. The GOP should make this an issue to associate Obama with nefarious figures in his life. McCain would be better served by allowing people not related to his campaign to use these ads even if some will come them racist"

What many did instead: "McCain hates conservatives and is poking us in the eye again. He needs to STFU and get out of the way. He doesn't control us or the NC GOP. Does he even want my vote?"

The latter should be shouted down and is not appropriate on a site dedicated to getting McCain elected.

And on one other point you made, I don't recall a lot of diaries on McCain and judges or pro-life views or other things by Fredheads. Maybe I missed them, but I don't recall them. I saw more about the NC GOP ad than about his Judges talk at Wake Forest.

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CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

now. McCain showed us the way.

[but why do I think 300 million mavericks would eventually lead to france and parties of one?]

Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

"McCain refers to himself as a maverick, and it is not a disrespectful phrase."

He also refers to himself as a conservative, and it is not a disrespectful phrase.

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The issue is party unity. When McCain refers to himself as a maverick all of the wings of the party are in agreement. When McCain refers to himself as a conservative...not so much agreement. EPU offered a peace proposal that you refused. You offered a counterproposal that those who have problems supporting all of McCain's positions should just simply not do any blogs on McCain at all. They should spend time writing about local political contests.
I do not understand how activism and turnout are ginned up for the Presidential election by telling some folks to stop talking about it. This does not make sense to me.


The purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better.
Dr. Theodore Dalrymple

He also refers to himself as a conservative, and it is not a disrespectful phrase.

How can you call yourself a "Maverick" for straying from Republicans/Conservatives in a public and in your face way...and at the same time say you are a "Conservative"?

Igain I ask you Adam...We can't convince you McCain is not a Conservative and you will never convince us he is; so why do you insist on kicking a dead horse?

CFR, Amnesty, Spending, Corruption,
Earmarks, Socialized Medicine:
”Your Silence Is Your Consent!”

I didn't write this diary. I didn't write the anti-McCain diaries. I don't have an upside down logo in my signature. I'm fighting back. If people stop saying things like "McCain is no conservative" then I'll stop responding.

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When McCain says he is a maverick, we believe him.

When McCain says he is a conservative, there is some heated disagreement on that point.

I am a maverick Republican myself---I do what I think is right, say what I think is right, vote R, and feel free to say whatever I want.

That said, we need to can the issue of McCain's conservatism or lack thereof.

I haven't seen you for awhile, I'm lurking under a different name (psst -- don't disrespect Huckabee supporters) I am still
forever a Fredheart

I saw Fred yesterday -- still a fan. He was a different type of candidate --- but I still liked him. I like a candidate spoke to me as an adult with an IQ and EQ over room temperature.

M Penny

I do find myself mostly lurking these days. Did I say a bad about Huckabee on RedState? If so, it was accidental.

Not friendly to speak ill of the "withdrawn."

I'm playing a McCain friendly tune right now, largely due to Fred's remarks surrounding the Wake Forest appearance.

I'm choosing not to think about any issues other than judge picking.

Yours in Fred!ness