Obama Raised a Muslim; Attended Madrassa

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by Jim Kouri

As Senator Barack Hussein Obama enjoys superstar status within the news media, a background check of the 45-year old Illinois Democrat revealed that he was a student in a Muslim madrassa in Indonesia and that he was raised by his stepfather as a Muslim.

While his defenders are calling this an attack based on fear-mongering, there are those who believe this is troubling news since Obama never mentioned this information in his book.

Some observers believe Sen. Obama himself used his revelation about drug use -- including cocaine -- as a smokescreen to hide his Islamic background.

"It's not about Obama being Muslim that concerns me. It's the fact that he's been deceptive about his religious and educational background," says political strategist Mike Baker.

Most madrassas are funded by Saudi Arabia and are known to teach a radical form of Islam known as Wahhabism.

According to Democrat Party sources, Obama spent at least four years studying at the Indonesian madrassa.

While there are several stories about this latest Senator Obama revelation, many inside the Beltway believe the story came from Senator Hillary Clinton's supporters in order to take the wind out of the sails of Obama's fledgling presidential run.

Jim Kouri, CPP is currently fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police and he's a staff writer for the New Media Alliance (thenma.org). He's former chief at a New York City housing project in Washington Heights nicknamed "Crack City" by reporters covering the drug war in the 1980s. In addition, he served as director of public safety at a New Jersey university and director of security for several major organizations.  He's also served on the National Drug Task Force and trained police and security officers throughout the country.   Kouri writes for many police and security magazines including Chief of Police, Police Times, The Narc Officer and others.

...as soon as the Clintons' smear machine kicked in. They're just doing this one for practice.

Madras, madras, madras. "But it was a really liberal madras." With more explanation comes more repetition.

That religious smears are still alive and well.

This one is great since it bereft of both evidence and value.

Obama lived in Indonesia from 6 to 10. Apparently he is being deceptive for not giving a full disclosure about his life at the time. Perhaps he could tell us what his favorite toys were at this time as well. Was he a Tonka or G.I. Joe kinda kid?

And I do like how all sorts of Conservative groups have inside sources within the Clinton campaign.

Almost makes you wonder if certain elements among Conservative groups are using Clinton as a shield to throw whatever unpleasant mud they don't want thrown back at them. Nah. That can't possibly be the truth.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

Ya know, considering that we're involved in a global battle with a radical segment of the world's Muslims?

Considering that he's written an autobiography, I find it pretty incredible that he left that part of his upbringing out -- particularly considering that it lasted as long as it did.

Whoever put it out there -- Hillary, conservatives, etal -- it shouldn't have been left to them to do it. Obama should've done it himself....that's certainly what he did with his cocaine use. Now, whether he likes it or not, it gives the appearance that he was trying to hide it.

He didn't leave his time in Indonesia out. And he specifically mentions that he went first to a Catholic school in Jakarta and then to a predominantly Muslim school after that.

He briefly mentions Islam but says that his mother was far more concerned with him learning his mulitplication tables than religious doctrine.

So in other words in his biography that he wrote 10 years ago he briefly mentions Islam but says it really wasn't part of his life in Jakarta.

So now sourceless smears are suggesting that he went to a madrassa 35 years ago. We'll ignore that Indonesia is a arguably the most liberal Muslim nation in the world and that it is unlikely that Saudi sponsored madrassa would be well received in the country. We'll ignore that Obama lived in the capital of Indonesia and not some backwater province such as Aceh and that Jakarta was under the rule of mostly secural Suharto at the time.

Instead we'll just focus on making vague speculations based on nothing but an unsourced rumor from staunchly Conservative sources.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

You're questioning the veracity of the claim. I'm going off the assumption that it's true. Is it possible that it isn't? Of course it is. It wouldn't be the first time and it certainly wouldn't be the last that some political figure had people lying about them.

So, assuming it's true that he attended a Madrassa, I think it's a relevant criticism that he's left that little morsel out of his books, etc. I don't think it's a big deal at all that he was sent to a Madrassa, if he was. He was a kid, doing what his family demanded he do.

But, considering how much he's spoken and written about his life story, I think it's relatively important that he left this out. If nothing else, it suggests that he's not terribly well prepared for the arena of presidential politics.

We are talking about his life from 6 to 10. How much detail is he supposed to be providing about this time in his life? Can you tell me about your personal religious experiences at this age?

And given that he wrote the book over 10 years ago, let's remember that he likely felt no great need to hide any Muslim connections he may have had in his past.

FTR, I think this rumor is complete fabrication generated by someone looking to double smear Clinton and Obama. And unless more information comes out about it, that seems to be the most likely scenario.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

Yes, I can tell you quite a bit about my religious and philosophical upbringing from ages 6 to 10. My parents, especially my father, took me to church and talked to me constantly about moral issues, at a level appropriate for my age. A lot of we believe about what is right and wrong can come from this period, consciously and unconsciously.

We'll see if the allegation about Obama attending a madrassa is true. If it is, we would be insane to even consider him for any office, let alone the Presidency.

Please tell me about your views on religion when you were 7. Had a lot of deep thoughts about the philosophical implications of monotheism over polytheism?

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

the distinction between basic moral & cultural instruction and profound, advanced philosophical analysis? Young children are quite capable of absorbing the former.

about this rumor. I do not agree with jmbrendel that being raised and taught as a Muslim is in itself anything that is dangerous to the USA. I disagree with you that he has not got in front of this rumor to head it off because it is no big deal at all. My plausible explanation for why he has not gone into great length and detail is that it could infuriate some Muslims in the world enough to issue a death sentence fatwa against him according to their sharia law. I do not blame him for not wanting to stir up a group of people to want to go out and kill him.

You’re a persistent cuss, pilgrim.
John Wayne to Jimmy Stewart in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

What if he had been in a concentration camp at that age? Or what if he'd grown up in a crack house?

I think the context matters. And this is something that, I think, is very relevant in today's world. As I said above, we are waging a war against a radical strain of Islam -- it is claiming lives basically every day. And Obama is ostensibly putting himself out there to lead us in that effort.

If he was exposed to Wahabist (or some other radical Islamic) teachings as a youth, don't you think it's something he ought not leave out of his biographical testaments? Because he's been doing a lot of biographing out there. He's probably talked more about his life, background, and experiences than any national political player I've known.

So here we are at a junction in time where Western civilization is being directly challenged and threatened by fundamentalist Islam, Barack Obama is one of the people vying to lead us against this threat, he (maybe) spends four years of his life exposed to strict Islamic dogma....and fails to mention it in all the auto-biographing he does?

I suppose I could swallow that if he didn't spend so much time talking about where he came from. But....

I understand you're a supporter of his and, as such, carrying his water. But take off that hat for a second and look at this with a little more independence. I think he and his supporters owe themselves that -- because the vast majority of the 120 million people who will vote for the next president aren't in your shoes.

If this is true, it's problematic -- not necessarily for what happened to him as a 6 year old (which, who knows, may actually be an asset in today's world), but for conspicuosly omitting that portion of his life from his self portrait.

Yes, any deception by a candidate about a major part of his formative years is troubling, whether or not it has to do with religion.

But I also think it is VERY MUCH a big deal if he attended a madrassa. I'm not reassured by the fact that it was a long time ago, or he was just doing what his parents told him.

As for flyerhawk's statement that Indonesia is one of the "most liberal" Muslim countries in the world, I can't help but laugh. First, being the least terrifyingly intolerant and repressive towards "infidels" doesn't make Indonesia a good place to educate our leaders. Being the most liberal Muslim country isn't saying much, given the "competition" for that title.

Second, Indonesia wasn't "liberal" when Obama was there, and it sure isn't "liberal" now.

Indonesia recently imprisoned and is prosecuting women for the "crime" of attempting to convert children to Christianity. And over 10,000 churches have been destroyed in the past 7 years alone. Read the article at http://www.jubileecampaign.org/home/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&fil....

The Islamic nutcases in Indonesia introduced a bill to punish people for the "crimes" of kissing in public or women showing their bare legs or shoulders. The penalty proposed is up to 12 years in prison and/or a large fine. The bill has received serious consideration. See http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51512.htm.

It's also useful to read the website of The Jakarta Post, at http://www.thejakartapost.com/Outlook/pol04b.asp.

Now, we have no way of knowing whether Obama was indoctrinated in radical Islam, or whether he retains any of what he was taught in Indonesia. But why the hell would we want to take a chance of putting anyone into a position of power over us who was EVER possibly brainwashed in a madrassa?

It's bad enough that the self-hating idiots in Minneapolis elected a Muslim to Congress. Now we're supposed to feel bad about disqualifying this guy from the PRESIDENCY because he attended the type of school where children are taught to hate, enslave, and kill non-Muslims???

That is a fine display of bigotry.

I like this part...

Now, we have no way of knowing whether Obama was indoctrinated in radical Islam, or whether he retains any of what he was taught in Indonesia. But why the hell would we want to take a chance of putting anyone into a position of power over us who was EVER possibly brainwashed in a madrassa?

You mean other than the fact that he regularly attends Christian church and has never shown any inclination, in any way, towards being a Muslim?

But certainly your closing was strong...

It's bad enough that the self-hating idiots in Minneapolis elected a Muslim to Congress. Now we're supposed to feel bad about disqualifying this guy from the PRESIDENCY because he attended the type of school where children are taught to hate, enslave, and kill non-Muslims???

Gosh. Those self-hating Minnesotans who were stupid enough to elect a MUSLIM! What's wrong with these people. And you shouldn't feel bad for disqualifying Obama because of the school he went to has a small child. You should feel bad for being a bigot.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

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Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes

Throwing around terms like "bigot" won't intimidate me. And an unrelenting sarcastic tone is no substitute for argument.

Given the very high stakes of giving the coercive power of government to someone, even a very small risk of entrusting it to the wrong person counsels caution. And yes, having attended a madrassa as an impressionable young person readily gives rise to sufficient risk. That's a risk not worth taking.

By the way, speaking of our new Muslim Congressman, would our freedom and culture be safe with a Congress that was majority Muslim? If one Muslim Congressman is ok, surely many more would be ok as well? Can't think of a lot of places where freedom & tolerance have fared well as Muslims increase their political power and cultural/social influence.

This is not to say that anywhere near a majority of Muslims support the repressive regimes and cultures in their countries. Neither of us can really know, and I hope and guess that's not the case. But it doesn't take anywhere near a majority of committed Islamic zealots to influence both policy and culture in alarming ways.

Electing a single Muslim Congressman is indeed inconsequential on its own, and we don't know what's in the guy's mind and heart. But still not a real bright move, and not a good precedent to set. That's not bigotry, just a very different assessment of the risks that come with the nascent rise of Muslim political and cultural power in the US and the West generally.

If there is anyplace in the world in which our idea of freedoms and liberty can exist hand in hand with Islam it is surely the United States of America. We have long time posters of this site that are living proof.

I will target a man for a radical agenda, but Obama has shown no evidence of this nor has the Muslim Congressman.

If I had to place my sights on an un-American or radical agenda right from the basis of this diary, I would swing them around on you.
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Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes

You make a legitimate argument, but then can't seem to resist calling me "un-American." I assume that you love America and are a "good American." Please accord me the same courtesy.

Btw, I would LIKE to believe that we can safely assimilate large numbers of Muslims, and preserve our freedom and culture after they've assumed substantial political power & social influence. But that just doesn't strike me as realistic. I'm not willing to take the risk, and it's because I love America that I'm not.

Moreover, I do not like the fact that some good Muslim people will be excluded from political power, and from the US entirely, if we do what seems to be necessary to fully protect ourselves. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take the steps necessary.

If there is anyplace in the world in which our idea of freedoms and liberty can exist hand in hand with Islam it is surely the United States of America.

Its exactly these kinds of insipid, uninformed platitudes that are the bane of any honest review of what American policies and attitudes should be towards those who actually adhere to tenants of the "Religion of Peace."

Until Americans come to understand that islam is fundametally antithetical to our "freedoms and liberty," based on any honest reading of the actual teachings of the koran and the history of that death cult, we're doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

--------------------Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.--------------------

So tell us, oh learned scholar of Islam, what is it about Islam that is antithetical or our freedoms and liberty? How are the millions of Muslims happily living in America now, capable of coexisting?

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

...you should read the koran and answer the question for yourself. Underline the number of times that violence against the infidel is demanded by that text, and then report back to me about how compatible that religion is with American freedom.

Islam is about as compatible with the American ideals of freedom as Mein Kamph is.

I know you liberals like to bury your heads in the sand and chant the mantra, "why can't we all just get along," and have no inclinations whatsoever to actually analyze the tenants of islam and question how those tenants might be dangerous to us and the world at large, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to pull the wool over our own eyes and not face the truth.

Islam is a religion that advocates the use of violence against those who do not adhere to its tenants. This doctrine is writ large across page after page of the koran. That is the plain, bald truth, and examples of this truth abound these past 1400 years since islamic "civilization" began converting others by the sword. Sorry that ruffles your relativistic, liberal sensibilities, but them's the facts.

Certainly a religion that advocates violence against those who do not practice it is antithetical to our cherished freedoms of religious toleration, not to mention the dictates of the Bill of Rights and that pesky 1st Amendment?

--------------------Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.--------------------

... born, bred and raised.

So I have read the Qur'an.

And you, sir, are just wrong.

Islam is about as compatible with the American ideals of freedom as Mein Kamph is.

First of all, it's Mein Kampf.

Second, this is idiotic.

Second, the sentence in which that appears is out of bounds.

Goodbye.

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A tribute to CO

For me to provide some examples of Biblical demands for violence? Does that mean that Christianity is a violent religion or Judaism?

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

I'm sorry to see him shown the door.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

Though in general we may agree on little, the above reminded me that 99.00% of Americans are bright, thoughtful people, even if those thoughts don't always line up.

You are assigning a religious test to our political leaders. You are indifferent to their actual views but rather say that because they believe in religion that you don't, they can't be trusted.

That is the epitome of bigotry.

By the way, speaking of our new Muslim Congressman, would our freedom and culture be safe with a Congress that was majority Muslim? If one Muslim Congressman is ok, surely many more would be ok as well? Can't think of a lot of places where freedom & tolerance have fared well as Muslims increase their political power and cultural/social influence.

Oh goodie. Absurd hypotheticals. They're always fun. I'd say there is definitely a probably if a group that comprises 1% of our population were to become the dominant political faction in Congress. But since it took 220 years for the 1st Muslim to get elected to office, I don't think I'm going to lie awake at night worrying about this scenario.

But still not a real bright move, and not a good precedent to set. That's not bigotry,

Uh yes it is. Calling people stupid because they don't impose a religious test on their voting choices, is indeed bigotry.

Throwing around terms like "bigot" won't intimidate me. And an unrelenting sarcastic tone is no substitute for argument.

Bigots rarely can be intimidated. There is no argument. What you are advocating flies in the face of basic core principles of our nation.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

We had almost no Muslim immigration to this country before the last 30 years. So the fact that the Muslim percentage of the population is still very low doesn't say anything about where it may be headed.

For an example of how quickly the Muslim percentage of the population can grow, see France (about 10% and climbing). We don't have nearly the Muslim immigration rate that France does, relative to population, due to their colonial history and proximity to North Africa.

But we do have the same problem with differential birthrates. Over time, a consistently higher birthrate for Muslims vis-a-vis non-Muslims leads inevitably to a higher and higher percentage of Muslims.

As for imposing a religious test on candidates, I have no problem voting for and supporting candidates who are Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, whatever. Islam has proven itself to be a special case, and a potentially dangerous one at that.

Re: But I also think it is VERY MUCH a big deal if he attended a madrassa. I'm not reassured by the fact that it was a long time ago, or he was just doing what his parents told him.

Why? He's a Christian now and seems genuinely sincere about it. Evidently he rejected Islam and it should hardly surprise any of us than someone would do so.
The Left is notorious for practicing exaggerated guilt by association, as when we are solemnly warned that the President having a polite moment with Falwell or Dobson means the theocratic world of the Handmaid's Tale is about to descend upon us. I expect better of folks here.

Also noted is the way you assume the conservatives with sources inside the Clinton campaign are using Shrill Hill. Its usually the leakers that use those they are leaking to.

Veritas magna est et praevalet.

I question the veracity of the source of the information. I find it hard to believe that Clinton aides would use someone like insight magazine to leak smear information. It's not like Clinton is all warm and fuzzy with those guys considering they were front line soldiers in the Republican war with her husband.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

They are both about as likely.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

I have no trouble believing people in the Clinton camp would take pleasure in being able to use old foes to their gain.

Veritas magna est et praevalet.

Logically, they'd give the information to whoever would make use of it. That would not be salon.com. The information is out there now. Their work is accomplished. It doesn't matter where it gets published, so long as it does.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

are involved, quite a few of them.

In my opinion, it's legitimate to consider, but not to snoop into, Obama's early influences, and ditto for Rudy's father's occasional interactions with the mob, Hillary's days as a Goldwater girl, etc.

And if there's nothing there, which I believe is the case with all the candidates, then we should move on to more important stuff

then he is an apostate, subject to death under shari'a law. If this is true, then Clinton's smears could be but a prelude to what the Jihad says about him.

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And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

He MIGHT have gone to a Muslim school for a few years, which is highly questionable at this point, but he was raised by his Christian mother and spent most of his youth in the states in public high schools.

He has shown absolutely no inclination towards Islam in his life but has spent considerable time in Christian churches.

So unless he is some sort of Manchurian Candidate, this is nothing more than a smear.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

I said "if" he was raised a Muslim. I do not doubt the sincerity of his Christianity, for I have no reason to doubt and; indeed, I think it would a malicious thing to think so ill of a man I hardly know anything about. Moreover, I am very glad he is a Christian.

But the point is this. He was born to a Muslim father, raised by another Muslim, his stepfather, and received his first education at a Muslim school. His later deviations are immaterial. In the eyes of traditional Islam, he was originally a Muslim, and thus he must be regarded as an apostate. Islamic civilization, recall, does not place such emphasis on personal conversion as we do; its tribal core is stronger.

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And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

He was first in school in Hawaii. Then he went to a Catholic school in Jakarta and then he went to this other school.

He only met his father very briefly and he claims that his step-father was secular and uninterested in religion.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

I defer to your knowledge.

We'll know the facts eventually, and perhaps all this is a Clinton smear; but you are still missing my point, which is that this evidence of apostasy, if confirmed, will not be overlooked by the propagandists of the Jihad.

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And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

but I do know that which even the youngest child learning about Islam knows - you are muslim if you yourself recite the shahada with sincerity of belief. Your father being muslim, or some nebulous concept of being "raised as" a muslim, or even attending a madrasah for grade school, all of these things are irrelevant.

You may be amused to know that I was required to take communion and participate in mass while attending Saint Raymond's grade school from grades 1-2 as a young child. I did what the nuns told me; my parents didn't care as long as I got good scores on my math tables.

The point is that a religious school might actually - gasp - instruct its students in other matters beyond teh spiritual. Again I reiterate my lack of genius status but it is my understanding that Indonesia, a country whose name evokes exotic Others liike "Indo" and "Asia", is not that different a place to be an upper middle class citizen than suburban Chicago.

and what total nonsense is this?

Islamic civilization, recall, does not place such emphasis on personal conversion as we do; its tribal core is stronger.

Paul, sometimes you evoke a deep determination in me to accord you respect as a serious scholar of religion and history. This is not one of those times.

Now if you want a smear of Obama that really sticks, check out that 'FRO while goin' to play some HOOPS! Groovy.

--
Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

I've had some recently exchanges with our Flyerhawk that predisposed me to snarkiness. But I should have just kept my mouth shut here.

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And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

you were baptized Christian? And that you have gone to confession?

I'm amazed.

no by azizhp

my parents immigrated from India to Chicago in the early 70s. Thy enrolled me in a local Catholic elementary school on the recommendation of a Catholic neighbor. The school enrolled me happily, and my parents were not really concerned about my exposure to another faith. As far as I can remember the school being Catholic vbarely registered on my mind; I hated the school however for other reasons (not least of which a very mean nun who was so strict in class that I had an accident while waiting for her permission to use the bathroom. Ah, childhood...)

All my neighborhood friends had started going to John Jay elementary so I transferred there in 3rd grade.

as far as religion I have always been a proud Bohra. Attending mass and communion were obligations I had to do as a student, else invite the nuns' wrath. It didn't bother me, though (no disrespect intended) I found it boring. It wasnt a big deal to me though.. better than learning math.

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Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

because while it is unremarkable to find non-Catholic kids in parochial schools and they attend mass, to take Communion you have to be baptized as a Catholic or in a denomination with the same understanding of the Eucharist as do Roman Catholics (rules here) You receive First Communion in first grade and go to first confession prior to that.

So what you went through was doctrinally irregular to the point of heretical.

they just didn't want me to feel left out? It can be hard to explain things like this to kids sometimes. I honestly don't recall well enough. I don't think that even Crazy Nun was trying to actively convert me or anything, it was all very laid back. Probably just some sort of misunderstanding or something.

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Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

No. by Thomas

It's the "laid back" part that's the problem.

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A tribute to CO

That school put itself in a whole heap of a lot of trouble.

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A tribute to CO

hmm by azizhp

I recall walking to the altar and eating a wafer. I don't recall being actually baptized with water, and also I never drank anything. It's kind of hazy in my mind though.

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Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

involves a small amount of oil and water.

That you walked to the altar and ate a wafer is not on you; you were a child. The nuns who ran the school should be excommunicate.

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A tribute to CO

Maybe it wasn't as I recall it. Memory can be a funny thing. I certainly don't want to put the school in any kind of uncomfortable position. I'd hate to be responsible for getting a nun excommunicated. The people there treated me well, if a bit harshly, and I am sure meant no harm.

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Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

I was batized Presbyterian. I went to a Catholic elem/middle school and onto a Jesuit high school. I clearly remember receiving communinion in 4th/5th grades...because I didn't know any better...and nobody stopped me.

I remember the first time our class went to confessional and I didn't know the proper response...it was like an Abbott and Costello skit until the priest called me out of the confessional box and into a back room for a chat.....ahhhh....good times. LOL

PS...I think this is a shameful attack on Barack Obama. No better than the attacks on Romney due to his religion.

and, in a spirit of bipartisanship, I will gladly roll out the shag carpet for any Democrat who calls to promote their 70's retro economic policies, and let them cuddle the pet rock.

And now, off to the disco!

Tell the truth about what the Koran and the Haditha (writings interpreting and applying the Koran) prescribe for apostasy.

One Muslim does so at http://egyptianobserver.blogspot.com/2006/03/once-muslim-always-muslim.h...

"In Islam, it is forbidden to convert to different faiths. The idea is that God slowly provided the world with his divine words progressively through the Bible, the Torah and lastly the Koran. Islam is the faith which EVERYBODY should follow because it is God’s final words. Thus, it is completely blasphemous to revert back to the ‘old’ and ‘outdated’ faiths...."

See also islammessage.com/zad/Christianity/religiontruth.doc:

"Apostasy from Islam is a grievous crime punishable by death. One who commits apostasy from Islam rejects truth after he had known it, thus, he does not deserve life . . . . "

And how about this charming entry in the haditha, specifically Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

"Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'WHOEVER CHANGED HIS ISLAMIC RELIGION, THEN KILL HIM.'"

(http://www.ishwar.com/islam/holy_hadith/book84/index.html) (CAPITALS ADDED FOR EMPHASIS)

at nutpicking, sir.

(no, not a typo. google it.)

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Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

Come on, we all know these are emotional issues, but attacking the argument would be welcome over slurs like "nutpicking."

Luckily, a lot of professed Muslims don't believe or act on such vicious exhortations, and good for them. But let's not deny the text of those sources. The Koran and the Haditha say what they say.

There ARE Muslim scholars who present supposedly contrary passages, or who would interpret even this passage differently. You could bring some of that evidence to the table instead of calling me names.

Btw, to be fair, there are some pretty vicious and extreme passages in the Old Testament, and many Christians simply ignore & don't follow them, as well. And it's a good thing. (such as Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.")

I suppose that, following the same line of reasoning you apply to Obama's Muslim education, we also need to worry about the fact that he went to Christian schools. After all, even the smallest chance that he wants to introduce policies based on Leviticus would be a risk too far. Right?

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

Would that be some Muslim nations, or Christian ones?

We've proven that we don't "enforce" that sick passage from Leviticus through government. Many Muslim nations haven't shown us that.

Obama is not a citizen of a Muslim nation so your point here is utterly irrelevant to your previous post about the 'smallest risk'

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

of engaging bigots in debate. That's all I really have to say to you at this point; you've comported yourself most dishonorably in this thread. For shame.

--
Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

of engaging people in debate who spend more time name-calling and making up cute words than addressing the argument. I haven't called you "dishonorable" or "un-American" and the like, and I don't intend to. Just unrealistically sanguine, in my view, about the threats posed by Islam domestically. See you, guys -

Great word.

Re: In the eyes of traditional Islam, he was originally a Muslim, and thus he must be regarded as an apostate.

I have known several people in the United States who were raised Muslim but left that faith, either for Christianity or simple American style secularism. I have a friend living near Chicago who is married to a Turkish doctor; this lady is about as atheist as they come now. I also knew a family of Iranians who became Christians. And a gay ex-Muslim who wants nothing to do with Islam any more. In the Middle East this would be dangerous (although the Turkish doctor has no problems visiting her family in Istanbul), but in America it's a non-issue.
And frankly I rather like the idea of having a high-profile example of our religious freedom and toleration for the Muslim world to contemplate.

Or at least, this cannot be the ideal reaction of individual Republicans, and Americans in general, who bear the sovereign authority of the Republic.

Again, if true, this fact will certainly be an important one to our enemies; and their interest makes it also an important one to us.

__________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

I am a Muslim born and raised and I consciously took the Shahada in my teens, i.e.
  "La illah ha illa Allah, Muhammad rasul Allah"

Speaking as someone who prays five times a day, fasts during the month of Ramadan, has performed the lesser Hajj (i.e. Umrah) - and plans to be in Makkah in the next few years for the Hajj - I have to disagree that being a Muslim in any way prevents one from being a patriot.

{smile} Provided, of course, that one is a Conservative Republican.

Either way, I simply fail to see the significance of where Obama went to school when he was six years old unless there's evidence that alumni of that school tend to grow up to be terrorists or terrorist supporters.

I have to disagree that being a Muslim in any way prevents one from being a patriot.

You must be disagreeing with someone else, because I do not think it prevents American patriotism either.

_______________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

To your credit, you have never said that being muslim is incompatible wiith being a patriot. I think you have examples aplenty where the two qualities coexist.

However Martin's point is more this:

Either way, I simply fail to see the significance of where Obama went to school when he was six years old unless there's evidence that alumni of that school tend to grow up to be terrorists or terrorist supporters.

And that's really the point that needs to be addressed.

--
Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

that Mr Barack is some sort of Manchurian-style terrorist in senatorial clothing?
Um, I think we are entering "Clinton Chronicles" territory here.

Ive been trying in my own way to argue against that idea. Maybe I'm doing a poor job.

--
Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

And I apologize for even thinking in that direction about you.

I am well aware that the character of my arguments may at times alienate some patriotic Muslims. I regret it, but feel that it cannot always be helped.

______________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

On the other hand.

I don't mind saying the Madrasa is a little bit worrisome and I would want to know more about the particular one he attended.

Veritas magna est et praevalet.

Martin, conservative muslim voices are generally lacking over at eteraz.org. Your participation in that venue would be a positive thing. May I invite you to join and register there? It's basically the RedState/Dailykos of the Islamsphere.

--
Dean Nation is now Nation-Building: Purple politics, muscular liberalism, principled pragmatism

Obama is a Christian-I've sat in church with him time and time again before his election and after. This is a smear and really does not belong on this site. I didn't vote for him, but I think he is a very likeable guy and what happened when he was 6-10 in some other country is irrelevant. And I say all of this as someone who is voting for Brownback-why don't we debate Obama on the actual issues then trying to invent his connection to radical Islam which quite frankly, isn't there.

Don't mess with Texas.

After all, I'd never vote against Mitt Romney, simply because he's a Mormon. Likewise, I wouldn't vote against somebody simply because they were raised, as a young child, to be Muslim (or, for that matter, if they still were a Muslim).

I think the issue here is that he hasn't been forthcoming about this part of his history -- which is an issue because he's been so forthcoming about so many other parts of his life.

Why not come forward with this piece of information when you, for instance, came forward about taking cocaine?

Certainly I've been raised a Christian all of my life, but if you asked me what the most significant part of my life when I was ten, I'd say baseball and basketball practice. Most children do not retain or understand the importance of religion at least until they are in or a couple years away from high school. Come on guys, think back to being that age, its only ten years ago for me and I know for me church was something you did because your parents made you, and you sat there and didn't really pay attention. When religion becomes important, as it is for me now, that's when you talk about it. For Obama, I would say religion for him became important when he gave his life over to Christ, and I think really he divulged what was signficant. Look, like I said I'm not voting for him-but I think he's a good person and I'd rather debate the real issues-he has a very liberal voting record on guns, taxes, the death penalty, abortion, and I think we should be talking about that, not whether he attended a Muslim school 25 some odd years ago for 3 years when he was still a child.
Don't mess with Texas.

to the rumor from the Hillary camp. I think someone in that camp might have been thinking of doing a political smear. I would hope that they did not realize that they would be putting Sen. Obama's life in danger. There are many Muslims who believe that once a person is a Muslim they must remain a Muslim. If they do not they are considered an apostate and subject to being sentenced to death. Maybe this risk of putting yourself and your immediate family at risk of being murdered by jihadists is the reason Sen. Obama has not made public too much information. I do not know this for a fact, but I would not be critical of him if this were the case.

You’re a persistent cuss, pilgrim.
John Wayne to Jimmy Stewart in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

Yes, there does seem to be a murder epidemic of those who were once Muslim and later convert to another religion.

I like flyerhawk ...

However, there is hardly anything that terrifies me more than finding myself agreeing with him.

But I have to agree with him here. You are a bigot and your comments here have dishonored this site.

I also think he's a good person -- and I'm very impressed with what he's accomplished in his life. He not only graduated from Harvard Law, he chaired up the Law Review while there. Nobody's given him a thing and I think he's a genuinely admirable man.

And I'm right there with you on the general issue of him having attended a Madrassa at the tender age of 6. Obviously, he had no choice in the matter -- and it wouldn't have mattered even if he did. He was 6 and simply doing what all sons do when their parents send them off to Sunday school. Hell, it may even be to his advantage to have that experience.

I'm not taking issue with his experience here even one bit (if it's true). I'm taking issue with his apparently having left that out of his bio -- and, let's face it, he's been doing a lot of self-portraits these last few years.

It just seems like a glaring thing to have overlooked -- considering the dominating storyline of this generation's events.

I'm not taking issue with his experience here even one bit (if it's true). I'm taking issue with his apparently having left that out of his bio -- and, let's face it, he's been doing a lot of self-portraits these last few years.

He specifically said that he went to a Muslim school. While he did not say it was a madrassa we don't know it it was a madrassa at all. And also remember it was written over 10 years ago at a time when talk about madrassa and Islam in general wasn't quite as volatile.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

You wrote:

While he did not say it was a madrassa we don't know it it was a madrassa at all.

Haven't we already been over this? As I've said several times now, I'm operating on the assumption that this report is accurate. That doesn't mean that it is accurate, nor does it mean that I'm accepting it as such.

You question it, which is just fine. But I'm arguing here under an assumption.

And also remember it was written over 10 years ago at a time when talk about madrassa and Islam in general wasn't quite as volatile.

A fair point, I suppose. But his life wasn't nearly as scrutinized then, either. I would remind you that we had been attacked, a couple times, by radical Islamists ten years ago. I would also remind you that he's had 5+ years since 9/11 to say he went to a Madrassa, if he did.

The point I'm making is that he has omitted that from his self-portraits. And he's had ample opportunity to put this out there. But, for whatever reason, he's declined to do so...although millions of people know such trivalities as the ancestry of his parents.

I guess I fail to see how any politician is expected to provide that level of disclosure. We aren't talking about some political group he joined in college to get chicks. We are talking a school he was forced to go to as a grammar school student. Not to mention it happened 35 years ago.

I guess I just don't see how his not disclosing this information is deceptive in any way or expected.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

Damn I spent all that money on a sports car.

Veritas magna est et praevalet.

Really only works with undergrads.

"There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why... I dream of things that never were and ask why not." George Bernard Shaw

I haven't seen Mormons engaging in widespread murder, torture, imprisonment, beating, and intimidation of Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc., in dozens of countries around the world.

So, of course, Romney's Mormonism isn't an obstacle to voting for him. A candidate's adherence to Islam is an obstacle, as is any attendance at a Muslim propaganda mill.

Let's apply it to, say, Catholics -- which I am one. Would you not vote for a Catholic because of what the IRA has done?

Or what about the Peasants' War inspired by Martin Luther's criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century? These were Christian peasants, ostensibly following Luther's lead, fighting noblemen and other patricians of the Holy Roman Empire.

If you want to argue that moderate Islam has been far too silent and conciliatory while their radical brethren are murdering in the name of their faith, I'll second you.

But part of the beauty of being a conservative is the respect of individuality -- eschewing "group politics" in favor of a one which champions, and holds accountable, each man on his own merits.

Let's leave the broad-brushing to the other side. They're the ones who can do little more than look at people as members of some group -- either empowered or oppressed.

Obama released these facts in his book. He went to a Catholic school for 2 years and a Muslim school for 2 years while living in Indonesia.

If the school really did teach Wahabbist teachings, then there would be a problem. As it is, it's all speculation. Someone should just ask Obama specifically about it and get this over with.

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After the 2006 elections, al Qaeda released a statement saying they were happy Democrats won. That should tell you all you need to know.

... but it does speak to his electability.

The main reason Bobby Jindal's not governor of LA right now is because plenty of Bubbas can't (and won't) distinguish between a Hindu (at birth) and a Muslim. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying it's a fact.

Republicans should sit this one out. Let the Dems eat their own.

to comply with the standards of Lousiana politics.

Hopefully, those standards may improve.

Those stupid bubbas. Won't they ever learn how to vote like sophisticated urban liberals?

Run like Reagan!

Once you say that you don't have to cite any evidence or sources, right? That's the rule.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

...doesn't Bobby Jindal have like a 30-something point lead in the polls right now over his nearest challenger for the governorship?

Didn't he win his house seat, going away?

Those two being the case, I'm not sure they support your point. While it's not hard to imagine that there were people who voted against Jindal for ethnic/religious reasons, the best we can do is speculate.

But something must've changed between then and now. Because Jindal seems to be doing very, very well in Louisiana politics -- I imagine he could win just about any statewide office he ran for there right now.

Personally, I'd say the reason he lost had more to do with age and political experience than anything else.

...I'm a Louisiana voter and I know people who came out & said they couldn't vote for Jindal because of the ethnic thing. In 2003. It was more a matter of unfamiliarity than anything.

2007 will be a different story. He proved himself in Katrina, was one of the few pols that was not a basket case, despite losing his home.

Inexperience? Check his resume. That young man (36) has accomplished more than Osama Obama & the Breck girl put together. Throw in John Cary for good measure.

That for someone at the top of American politics to have detailed knowledge of Islam is something of an advantage.

If I were advising one of the GOP campaigns I would be very keen to recruit Martin A Knight to the team, as his knowledge, along with his articulate expression of GOP values would be a considerable asset.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

This discussion reminds me why the separation of Church and State has value.

And how it motivates him ? I know christians and conservative jews are the last safe groups to attack but isn't this a little blatant for a double standard ?

Veritas magna est et praevalet.

If President Bush had faith, then the admissions of his bad judgments wouldn't have been so difficult to make. It's just because like so many others who blindly support him, he cannot admit fault. If he admits to human error, then that challenges all of his other beliefs, which is just what the Christian Conservative Movement is about. It's not because they're under attack; it's because other life-styles are flourishing around them successfully. That's the essence of the so-called attack on Christians

Barak Obama did not attend a madrassa. He attended a regular Indonesian public school which was secular with a gender mixed student body as well as a gender mixed teaching staff. This other rot is from the anti-muslim leadership, which doesn't fancy a person who might have lived comfortably with Muslims and is also black. It belongs to the likes of the Swiftboat campaign, the anti-black attacks on Harold Ford as well as the anti-woman attacks on Hillary Clinton. None of these ad hominem attacks serve any purpose, but to attempt to turn attention away from the miserable situation this nation's in and the deadly price young Americans are paying in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq, because of a string of bad judgments.

You are confused on a number of points.

I make no comment on Obama's education, as I have no information on it. However, you are totally wrong about Harold Ford. There were no 'anti black' attacks on him. Even the DNC could come up with only one advert with so called 'racial overtones' and they were all imaginary. It was an ad that made a point about his playboy lifestyle.

I have also never seen any 'anti woman' attacks on Hillary Clinton. If you want to make a point about sexist attacks on people and their lifestyle choices look to Barbara Boxer's remarks to Condoleeza Rice. If you are looking for racism, try all the attacks on Michael Steele, or Harry Belafonte's attacks on Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice. These are real ad hominem slurs. Policy points about Hillary Clinton, or drawing attention to John Kerry's grandstanding while American soldiers were being tortured in Vietnam is nothing of the sort.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

Soon to be locked in a space duel to the death with the Farrakhan Mothership?

What--or who--are you talking about? And how about sprinkling some links among your Talking Points? That is, if you're still here.

 
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