Redstate

But I tell you what why don't we have democrats take over the school and terrorize the kiddies.

I don't suppose the idea that kids go to school to learn about the world as it is penetrates ? That giving kids a false picture of the world is harmful ?
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

The school was doing a drill in preparation that one of the STUDENTS would come into school guns ablazing. Now I don't know what the exact demographics on the Burlington student body are but given it is located in the middle of nowhere I am going to guess that there aren't a lot of non-Christians in the school.

The drill wasn't designed to prepare the students and staff to guard against a terrorist attack. If terrorists, of any stripe, were to go to this school the children would be quickly rounded up and used as hostages as would most of the staff. There isn't much a school can do about that.

However there are things a school can do in the event that a gun toting student starts a rampage. And that was what the drill was about.

But I'm sure none of that will hold back the Outrage!

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

First from the post.

“went to the school seeking justice because the daughter of one had been expelled for praying before class.”

From the article

According to a report in the local paper, The Burlington County Times, the mock gunmen pretended to gun down several students in the hallways before taking 10 students hostage in the school’s media center. Given that the drill was intended to test the disaster response of students, faculty and local emergency personnel, county officers were dispatched during the drill to realistically execute an emergency evacuation of the building.

The way you are portraying this is not in accord with the facts. The school wasn't any better, seeing as its legal for students to pray before classes and the school can't do anything to stop it, except maybe inculcating the idea that people that pray will be taking hostages.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Don't know how that happened.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

The school most likely intentionally made the issue a non-issue. They weren't looking to make a political statement.

The fact that you would mention PC is ironic. You are getting Outraged! over some minor factoid that had almost nothing to do with the exercise.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

is that there are only two sociodemographic groups in America that can be portrayed unfavorably: Christians and White Southerners. Of course, the two are commonly conflated. A third group not defined by sociodemographics who can be portrayed unfavorably is men, all of whom are silly, self-interested, and stupid.

Insert any other ethnicity in one of Jeff Foxworthy's "redneck" jokes and you'd be hung, drawn, and quartered by the PC Police. Make a woman look as stupid as men are commonly portrayed in TV commercials and the Feminazis would be screaming in outrage.

In Vino Veritas

The bimbo blonde is most assuredly alive and well as a stereotype.

The evil Arab is alive and well.

Men are portrayed in all sorts of ways. Some of you here focus on specific types in a minor bout of self-victimization.

nsert any other ethnicity in one of Jeff Foxworthy's "redneck" jokes and you'd be hung, drawn, and quartered by the PC Police.

Tell that to Chris Rock or to Carlos Mencia.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

have Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy use some of Rock or Mencia's material. And when was the last time you heard a bimbo joke other than among the boys at the water cooler or from a woman?

In Vino Veritas

So your point is that Americans don't like humor directed at others? I'll agree with that.

Denise Richards entire career is based on bimbo jokes.

Jessica Simpson? Same thing.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

No, it is not that Americans do not like "...humor directed at others" there is plenty of that in popular culture. It is that political correctness dictates who that humor can be directed towards. On a more pertinent (to this thread) note political correctness dictates who can be the villains in public entertainment/activities and who can be the heroes. It is PC to have a Christian fundamentalist terrorist (though just about non-existent in reality) and not PC to have a Muslim terrorist (though they are numerous today).

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

It is PC to have a Christian fundamentalist terrorist (though just about non-existent in reality) and not PC to have a Muslim terrorist (though they are numerous today).

Would you like a list of TV shows depicting Muslim terrorists? 24 and Sleeper Cell are the most glaring examples.

How many examples of Christian terrorists are there in popular culture? We got some high school in NJ that would have gone unnoticed if not for the diligence of some agenda driven website.

What else? The evil terrorists of 7th Heaven? For every negative depiction of Christians in television or film there are 20 positive depictions.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

The PC police went after 24  for their anti-PC depiction of Muslim terrorists.  Fox was forced to show several PC PSAs in order to buy off the PC Police.  One of these PSA even included the star of 24.  Sleeper Cell is a show that humanizes terrorists.  It makes them look like heroes it does not use anti-PC stereotypes.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

in which the main characters, other than the non-Muslim FBI agent, are planning to blow up a lot of civilians, a heroic depiction of terrorists.

I fail to see what the big deal is about the PSAs. So the fact that they are depicting Arabs as evil terrorists is fine because of some 30 second blurb?

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

The PSAs were pro-PC propaganda. They were enough to satisfy the PC types for a brief period, but not forever (the PC types are after 24 again). I am not sure if the show depicts Arab-Muslims as terrorists or some other type of Muslim as terrorists. It is most assuredly fine to depict Muslims as terrorists in a TV show about a terrorist hunter set in the near present day. It would be absurd to have a TV show set in the near present day about a terrorist hunter that did not ever depict Muslim-terrorist. If the show was about a terrorist hunter in 1902 then it would be absurd for him to not hunt anarchists (they were the terrorists then). If the show was set in the 1960's-70's then the hero should be after communist terrorists like the Red Brigades. This show is set in the era we live in today, an era where "not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims." To attack, pressure, intimidate, blacklist, etc 24 for depicting Muslim terrorists nears the apex of PC absurdity.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

Examples of Christian terrorists in the Media. 1 , 2 ,

P.S. I need a good way to search for these. I can recall examples from episodes of Charmed, Family Guy, and a lot of movies, etc., but I am unable locate them on the internet with out the expenditure of an insane amount of labor.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

As I said I'm sure there are some negative images, although I fail to see how Item 2 is an example of your point, but they pale in comparison to the overwhelming positive image of Christians you find in most shows.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

2 is another example of a PC concept "Christian Terrorists" being pushed by the PC types despite its lack of existence in reality. Once you get into the meet of the article the writer admits that "...none believe that such views are shared by more than, at most, a few hundred people," and from there the article degenerates into citing admitted speculation as evidence of "Christian Terrorists."

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

I am sensing some sophistry in your prose. Is it intentional or accidental?

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

I think that the point was that there are only a few politically correct (will not get you sued, protested, blacklisted, etc.) stereotypes left in the USA. While the evil-Arab stereotypes does exist it is not PC. Public utilization of the evil-Arab stereotype will run you afoul of the PC police (which will not advance a career in public education). On the other hand creating/using/reinforcing stereotypes that are PC (like many anti-Christian ones) will not usually harm one's career in public education (it may help it).

P.S. Political Correctness does allow one to utilize otherwise anti-PC things pertaining to one's own heritage. Carlos Mencia has made a career out of being anti-PC. Chris Rock does use a lot of stereotypes, but I think they are all PC stereotypes.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

is on the front line in the war waged by Christian fundamentalists.

(Note: I understand the girl's prayer was that the good Lord assisted her to get the hell out of New Jersey)

It was a drill and not a political statement.

But I could be wrong.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

see clever male-bashing ad

I thought it was bashing the purveyors of manufactured outrage. Maybe I should be outraged about that. I'll have to meditate on it.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

...ad about some wine spigot that is so clever that "it must have been invented by a woman" ad. I guess it has wings or something.

Drink Good Coffee. You can sleep when you're dead.

And can you direct me there so I can get a larger one for my desktop wallpaper?

Fides non in bonus intentions , tamen in bonus factum

For more common sense conservatism, visit the Show Me Conservatism blog.

that even you can understand.

Imagine that a public high school in Alabama did a "terror drill" and the fake terrorist involved was a Democrat high school student who was so upset that he couldn't come to school wearing nothing but an American flag wrapped around his loins like a diaper. Do you think that the level-headed "socialists" at dKos would take that lying down?

You ask the dumbest questions sometimes. I'm convinced that you're unemployed. Please prove me wrong.

For putting this discussion into terms even I can understand. Sometimes it is hard to follow you smart Conservatives.

I guess that some of the Outrage merchants over at DKos would get upset. Then again it would be a little hard to deny you are making a political statement when you are using a political party as your hypothetical.

Also I hadn't realized that Dkos was the standard by which the Conservatives of Red State wish to be judged upon. I learn new things everyday.

You ask the dumbest questions sometimes. I'm convinced that you're unemployed. Please prove me wrong.

Of course I'm unemployed. I'm a Liberal. By definition, that means I'm unemployed. Someday I hope to have a job so I can be just like you.

Just curious but was there a purpose to your invective?

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

We know nothing about you other than your username and your opinion that conservative, particularly Christian conservatives, are always wrong.

I thought that I'd give you the opportunity to share a little info about yourself.

One of my beliefs about the internet is that the anonymity it provides is toxic to the goal of genuine constructive information sharing. The internet forum is conducive to merciless attacks by people that don't really connect a human being to the subject of their attacks.

I thought that if you had the opportunity to share a little about yourself, it might open up everyone's eyes as to where you're coming from.

Either you are legitimately unemployed or you're just another sarcastic liberal. Well, my crusade to change the tone ends here. Good luck in all of your endeavors, flyerhawk. I hope you find the redstate crowd to be more humane to outsiders than the liberal blogs on which you post.

You normally are more honest. The questtion is why would any religion be interjected into the exercise?

This is just another extension of the craven reaction to the cartoon riots. Rather than focus on fanatics who really don't believe in separation of state and religion (radical Islamists) or, as would be preferable, avoid any religious connection at all, this school system took the coward's way out and dumped on people unlikely to do anything other than complain.

These cretins deserve all the crap heaped upon them, and I pity children educated by these morons.

The organizers were trying to give it a context.

But that isn't acceptable to you. You, and others here, demand that people make political statements in everything they do.

The drill was not about fighting Christians. It was about dealing with a terrorist situation.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

The organizers were trying to give it a context.

A drill doesn't any context. Have you ever participated in a fire drill? Did the organizers come up with some story about how angry Christians were burning books outside and accidentally set fire to the building? No? They don't need to invent a story to do a drill. The story was created and disseminated to make a political statement.

The drill was not about fighting Christians. It was about dealing with a terrorist situation.

Then they should have left out the Christian parts. What if the context was some minority group (say black people played by white students in black face) taking hostages in the school? I guess that would've been alright with you, because, hey, it's not about race. It's about terrorism.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

A political statement was inserted--but you know that.

Since the school has shown Insensitivity towards Christians, would you support manditory Sensitivity Training for those that chose the scenario?

Maybe require that they have to attend church every Sunday for 3 months?

I'm just saying.

---
Internet member since 1987
Member of the Surreality-Based Community

Why in the world would I demand that? When is anyone obligated to attend Sensitivity Training other than to keep their job?

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

So we should be demanding that those that came up with the scenario be fired, and settle for them attending Sensitivity Training. Got it!

---
Internet member since 1987
Member of the Surreality-Based Community

Unless you live in the Burlington Township school district.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

What if your tax dollars helped pay for this little exercise?

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

It is/was actually part of the curriculum of several public high schools (as of the early 1990's).

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

made it a political statement on the part of the school. If you run a terrorist drill to not make a statement, the ACME Terror Cell group has stormed the school and taken hostages. The school made a blatant anti-christian statement, and is being properly castigated for it.

It seems to be located within the "filthadelphia" media market.  That is not exactly the "middle of nowhere."

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

This type of thing is unexcusable. There was absolutely no need to depict the attackers as having any particular agenda. Sometimes you really need just keep you liberal/left apologetic text generator turned off.

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

I'm make I never depict the attackers as having an agenda ever again.

You may continue getting upset about what some school system nowhere near you does.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

But since you aren't a member of the Offended Group, you have no right to criticize their Pain. In fact, by failing to acquiesce to their criticism, you're as guilty as the offending school.

Yes, I'm exaggerating, but folks from your side of the political aisle have been pulling that one out since forever, so we've racked up some free uses of it by now.

---
Internet member since 1987
Member of the Surreality-Based Community

I think that people overreact about all sorts of things on both sides of the aisle.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Hm, who has the most posts in this thread?

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Internet member since 1987
Member of the Surreality-Based Community

I had a lot of people respond to me. I try to respond to as many people as I can.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

not yet enough of a hassle to to justify taking out in the back yard and shooting, but picking up the c**p really gets old.

In Vino Veritas

I just spout crazy theories and propaganda.

You guys get annoyed by me because I challenge your sacred cows and it bothers you because you believe they are true prima facie. And since I don't engage in silly Lefty talking points you are forced to defend your positions rather than turn the discussion around.

Tell me that I am too dumb to understand the points or that I MUST be unemployed or saying that I all I do is crap in threads is childish invective and nothing more.

Sadly I consider you one of the most intelligent and interesting posters here. But the fact that you can't even see the faux outrage of this story and think that I am being nothing more than petulant in pointing that out, is disheartening.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

You just come from a place intellectually that most of us don't share. Experience has taught me to see the world in very black and white terms; I have no need for subtlety nor nuance. You seem driven to find the shades of gray in the shades of gray. I don't want to understand people with whom I fundamentally disagree. Likewise, there really is no reason to talk to people with whom you have nothing in common. You don't see it that way. Oh, well ...

In Vino Veritas

Personally I think we all have far more in common than in difference. And I think we tend to focus far too much on the differences rather than the similarities. It is that sentiment that we come from fundamentally different places that I disagree with.

I will certainly grant that I am someone who sees the gray in most things.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

However, since they did use a religiously motivated terror spree, I wonder why they didn't use the elephant-in-the-room Islamic fundamentalist that we see every day in the news?

Is the real story that they are scared to do this?
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Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes

They probably don't have any Muslim students in their school system.

The idea is to make sure that the students take the risk seriously. A crazed Christian student is far more likely than a crazed Muslim student in a school that doesn't have any Muslims.

I did like this comment....

Pawson explained that the scenario created by the Burlington school officials could never realistically happen. “Why could it never happen? Because, as all Burlington school officials know full well: It is perfectly legal for any student or staff member to pray in a public school. They know that no student can ever be expelled for praying before class. Hence, the contrived reason for the mock attack is bogus.”

So Pawson believes that crazy people are logical and that they would never do such a thing. I think Mr. Pawson misses the point.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

not a Christian student gone nuts. They simulated an organized terror cell attacking a school.

carry out a mock ‘hostage situation’ drill at their school. The drill invoked disapproval from Christian students as the student body was told that the alleged gunmen were “members of a right-wing fundamentalist group called the 'New Crusaders' who don't believe in separation of church and state.”

Not saying it couldn't happen, but they are definitely avoiding a 300 lb gorilla here. I'll agree with you about Pawson, but I think you are making the same mistake he did. The issue should not be about people attacking a school about the "issue" of school prayer, it is about an act of terrorism being committed by an organized group of religious fundamentalist terrorists that just happen to be... Christian?

Why are they scared to say the obvious?

___________________________________________________________
Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes

I must admit I misread the article and thought that it was students and not the parents of the students.

Not sure it really changes things a whole lot but I do admit that I misread the article.

Just seems to be much ado about nothing.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

... to something.

Of course, you'll never admit it ... but you and I both know why the supposed terrorists were not fundermentalist Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Rastafarians, Hindus, Scientologists or some completely made-up religion like Evilarians, but Christian fundermentalists.

Now, like you say, I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that there was no deliberate political message behind this.

But it does reveal a certain mindset, doesn't it?

George W. Bush: He's A Folder ... Not A Fighter.

85% of Americans self-identify as Christians so it isn't terribly surprising that they used Christians.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

...if you'll excuse the roundoff error for the .0001% of violent nutjobs, would completely repudiate violence over school prayer.

85% of the nation "self-identifies" as right-handed. What would be the point of a scenario that had a school being taken over by right-handed Americans? It would be totally irrelevant to the drill in question.

As is their religion. So the "of course they were Christian because it was in a majority Christian community" dog just doesn't hunt.

The majority of Americans are women. I guess a radical feminist group taking hostages because of unequal funding of college athletics would be a fine, and perfectly logical scenario for a school to play out, in flyerhawk's book.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

Seems kinda silly, particularly in a High School, but to each there own.

I may get upset about it if I was attending the school or paying for the school.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Feel free to get upset. There's plenty of Federal dollars going to that and every other public school.

Whether or not you'd personally get upset about having a feminist group portrayed as the attackers, it WOULD certainly be a political statement, not an accident. Just as this is a political statement.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

State tax dollars as well. I have paid taxes to the state of NJ.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

you didn't even understand the implications of what you misread, nor have you exhibited any aptitude for enlightenment.

Why not try using something else for a moral benchmark than the lowest common denominator of human hypocrisy?

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

Your statement about the Muslim population of the school does not sound reasonable.  There is a significant Muslim population in New Jersey as a whole.  

P.S. I am looking for township level religious demographics.

.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

There are some notable pockets of Muslims in NJ but once you leave those pockets they become mostly non-existent. According to this site

only 1.3% of the school population is not white/black/hispanic/indian.

I will concede that I confused the location of this town. I thought it was in the pine barrens region of the county. My mistake on that.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

only 1.3% of the school population is not white/black/hispanic/indian.

Since Islam is not a race, I'm not sure what any of that has to do with anything.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

I could not find where the site stated that  "only 1.3% of the school population is not white/black/hispanic/indian." The Census describes a great deal more ethnic diversity than that in the Township.  Why would its one public high school be less ethnically diverse than the township?

P.S. Ethnicity has very little relation to religion in the US.  

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

I might of made a bad here. The census data might be for the county not the township. My computer will not let me reaccess that pdf file right now to check.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

How he combined white/black/indian/hispanic into one group... So the number he is using is not a measure of "diversity" at all. I'd guess he was trying to filter it down to Arabs, but I would expect flyerhawk to be smart enough to know the difference between Muslims and Arabs.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

Remember in 2002 when the movie version of "The Sum of All Fears" replaced the radical Islamofacists in Tom Clancy's book with neo-Nazis who were planning to blow up the Superbowl?

Why do you suppose the change was made?

Because post-WWII, industrialized nations have developed a culture of sympathy for oppressed groups. And the media gets to decide which groups are "oppressed". Therefore, Democrats, liberals, Muslims, Jews, ethnic minorities (except for Asians, most of the time), and people with disabilities are "oppressed".

Christians will never be declared an "oppressed" group by the media even if they live in a country like Iraq where they're outnumbered 500 to 1. The media has already decided that Iraqi Christians could easily just migrate to the U.S. and become millionaires.

If we don't speak up about this nonsense, then no one will.

Give 'em hell.

is that what you just said is certainly nonsense.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

the vicinity of the City Limit sign. My Christianity Grace-o-Meter tends to the Richard the Lionheart peg.

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

I hope this is better, apologies for the over quoting. I don't how to do a block quote or a link, I wish I did.

Learning by doing, and all that. I'd suggest playing with those buttons just above the comment box, or else take a gander at Neil Steven's excellent breakdown of htmling found here and here.

Hope this helps.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

I clicked on the links and am denied access.

Thanks.

snotty.

I had deleted some text asking you to post different links so that I could access the pages and inadvertently left "thanks".

like accessing some of my old diaries as well. You can get to them usually by logging out (or like me just using IE instead of my normal Firefox) and then trying the links.
______________________________________
The CIA has better politicians than it has spies - Fred Thompson

.

Hadn't even noticed.

Anyway, here is the original advanced tips link:

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/neil_stevens/2006/dec/26/advanced_html_and...

You should be able to track it down from there.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

three of the links you give and get "Access denied" every time.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

back up, you will see where Darin H. recommends logging off and then clicking on the links.

It works.

How did you get that they were conflating Christian, fundamentalist Christian, and skinhead from the story?

I agree that they could have avoided the Christian thing and probably should have. I don't know why they used it and neither does anyone on this website.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

I agree that they could have avoided the Christian thing and probably should have. I don't know why they used it and neither does anyone on this website.

Think hard about why they might have chosen not to "avoid the Christian thing," as easy as it would have been for them to avoid. The options are pretty limited. I can only think of one: somebody wanted to make a political statement and nobody in control saw a problem with that.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

I would be willing to bet at some point there was a dustup about prayer in that particular school. The anti-prayer forces lost and this was how one or more vented their spleen.

Never underestimate the pettiness of a thwarted bureaucrat.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

the student body was told that the alleged gunmen were “members of a right-wing fundamentalist group called the 'New Crusaders' who don't believe in separation of church and state.”

The left loves to say anything and everything is a "code word" for some real or imagined offense. Can you veil it any thinner than saying this group of not necessarily Christian terrorists is called the "New Crusaders"? GMAB!

the left and CAIR wouldn't be up in arms if the group was described instead as:

the student body was told that the alleged gunmen were “members of a asian fundamentalist group called the 'New Jihadists' who don't believe in separation of church and state

I doubt the township's and school district's "the word Muslim" wasn't used excuse wouldn't fly too far either.

Lots of people either feel a need to rationalize or deny things that they believe discredit their views.

I don't really understand why people get upset about various kooks being assigned to either the Left or the Right. Being evil or crazy isn't tied to your political inclinations.

Personally I don't care much for assigning Pol Pot or Joe Stalin to either side of the spectrum. They were straight up brutal dictators far more interested in furthering their own power than advancing any specific political philosophy. But to each their own.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

I understand where you're coming from. Your response actually follows the exact same template of the majority of the people who chimed in on BlackVoices.

First, loudly claim that Hitler should be a source of shame for the Right because only the Right can produce such a genocidal monster - Hitler's program of conquest, racism and genocide is the logical outcome of Conservatism.

But after pointing out Pol Pot and Stalin were genocidal monsters who were on the Left, most (including a great deal of the folks who made the Hitler => Right argument) immediately scrambled to an above-the-fray situation, declaring that it's not "useful" to assign either Left or Right to dictators.

That said, flyerhawk; these school officials called their terrorist group, the "New Crusaders" - Right-Wing fundermentalists enraged at the separation of Church and State.

You can pretend all you want that this reveals absolutely nothing about the politics of the people who planned this exercise; you can pretend that the terrorist group are clearly not Christian; you can even pretend that the reason they made the terrorist group identifiably Christian is because Christians are the majority - though I don't see how.

But I doubt all your attempts to convince anyone that there's nothing to see here or that this is not something for Christians to be concerned about, like say CAIR would be if the Terrorists were, say a group called "The Prophet's Sword" are making much of a difference.

I doubt you'd be saying there's nothing to worry about to NAACP members if the school had made the terrorist group some offshoot of the Black Panthers.

George W. Bush: He's A Folder ... Not A Fighter.

Good job projecting.

If it makes you feel any better I most certainly consider Mao a Leftist as well as Lenin.

As for Hitler is more difficult to place on the ideological barometer. Yes his public policies were generally Rightwingish but he wasn't afraid of implementing a lot of socialist policies as well.

As I said I think putting ANY of these people on one side of the ditch or the other is an exercise in futility. I strongly doubt that anyone on the mainstream Right identifies with Adolf Hitler or Mussolini. Likewise, no one on the mainstream Left identifies with Mao or Lenin. I don't think any sane person would identify with any of these people or Stalin or Pot or Amin or Duvallier or countless other evil human beings that have risen to power by being brutal and amoral.

As for the school you guys don't seem to get my point. While I personally doubt there was some political agenda behind using right wing fundamentalists I will grant it is a possibility. But my question to you is, so what? Why does it matter?

You guys constantly rail against political correctness and chide the various groups that you feel engage in it(CAIR, NAACP, NOW, etc) for being too sensitive but when something occurs that offends you sensibilities, you use them to justify your outrage.

As for the Black Panthers, racial politics in America are a very sensitive subject. African Americans have a lot more reason for concern when they see racially based characterizations than any other group in this country.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Totalitarianism and mass death is often the result of leftist policies gone wild. And Hilter's public policies tended more towards socialism and state control (read the history of VW for an example).

"While I personally doubt there was some political agenda behind using right wing fundamentalists I will grant it is a possibility. But my question to you is, so what? Why does it matter?"

This is a public school. It's role is not to inculcate any specific ideology into our children (or has your side's stance on that changed?).

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

Leftists are the scourge of the planet.

If you want to call Fascism a leftist policy, have a great time. You aren't likely to find many political theorists that agree with you, but enjoy it anyway.

Regardless neither one of them are my boys in any way shape or form as there is hardly a single policy of either that I would embrace.

This is a public school. It's role is not to inculcate any specific ideology into our children (or has your side's stance on that changed?).

Nope. And if the school board and parents of that school system are unhappy about the choices of the school system, they most certainly should do something about it.

Since none of the people on this board live in the township I fail to see why it concerns you.

FTR, I hold this position on just about any curricula related matters*. If some school in Kansas wishes to teach their kids that we were brought to this planet by flying spaghetti monsters, so be it. Doesn't bother me in the least. I feel sorry for the kids, since it probably help them much down the road, but either we support locally controlled school systems or we don't.

* - There are some exceptions to this. Public schools should not teach anything that is illegal nor should they proselyti . They must also adhere to the standards of the state to receive accredation. But I don't much care about them teaching political dogma as I think that is up to the parents and if the parents of a community want to teach their kids that Liberals are really bad I don't see why we should stop them.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

For the record, I think Fascism is really a blending of the worst features of both the Left and the Right. [ God help me; it's like something a "moderate" would say - ed]

For example, Fascism recognizes private property but arrogates to the state, control of that property - so a man can actually own a house but have the government assign somebody else to live in it with or without his consent.

What's the operational difference between that and outright communism?

George W. Bush: He's A Folder ... Not A Fighter.

What's the operational difference between that and outright communism?

The biggest problem with Communism is that all applications of it have been completely corrupted and rather quickly. Now this should come as no shock to anyone who has ever studied human nature for more than 5 minutes, it is difficult to discuss the few aspects of Communism because they are overshadowed by the totalitarian results that will occur whenever Communism is attempted.

This is why I said that Stalin really isn't a Leftist because Stalin really wasn't a Communist. Communism is a system of government in which the proletariat have control of the means of production and of capital. In theory the people are supposed to collectively determine the best use of production and capital. In reality that authority is ceded to a central government with an oligarchical structure that rather quickly turns into just another dictatorship in which the people own nothing and have essentially no individual rights.

Truth be told, in the case of the Soviet Union, they discarded true Communism very early on with the last vestiges of true Communism leaving when Trotsky was exiled.

FTR, I don't care much for the State Control = Left Non-State Control = Right spectrum. That is far too simple.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Oh well ...

In that case, and by that standard, Hitler wasn't really Right-Wing either.

Either way, I guess your point just proves that communism, socialism or any other kind of political system of government and economics that is based collectivism is impossible to implement and is destined to devolve to pure evil.

After all, one cannot name a single Communist nation that is not operationally a dictatorship with totalitarian control over its people - instead of the other way around.

George W. Bush: He's A Folder ... Not A Fighter.

You will never see me arguing in favor of Communism.

The old adage "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely" still holds true. Doesn't much matter what the -ism is.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

well that is going to come as a hell of a shock to a lot of historians.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling

but that doesn't mean he was a communist anymore than China is a Republic because they call themselves "The People's Republic of China".

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

One of the basic definitions of a republic is any non-monarchy. Under that definition China is a republic.

Stalin was a Bolshevik long before they ever gained power. He went through exile and the other difficulties the Bolshevik leaders endured. It is hard to say that he was not a true believing communist. You can claim he was only a Bolshevik for the power but he was a Bolshevik long before they ever had a realistic chance at power. Communists and their apologists may not want him anymore, but he is one of their own.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

Just because someone is a Democrat doesn't mean they believe in democratic principles.

Your points are too close to the "Communism is OK if you just do it right" stance for my taste. In my view, Communism not "pure" then corrupted - it is inherently corrupt because the premise defies the natural rights and responsibilities of the individual.

"FTR, I don't care much for the State Control = Left Non-State Control = Right spectrum. That is far too simple."

Simple, maybe, but it holds true in every instance I can think of.

Where did I say anything that even approximates "Communism is OK"? Some of you guys just can't help but knee jerk a response on this.

Simple, maybe, but it holds true in every instance I can think of.

Theocracies are Leftist forms of government? Colonial/mercantile expansionism is a Leftist form of government/economic rule?

Left and Right are just labels. We should stop trying to use them as pejoratives.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

The biggest functional problem with Communism is its reliance on central planning. Planned economies are not effective in the long-term. There are innumerable other problems with Communism not limited to flawed assumptions upon human nature, insane incentives, inability to grasp the nature of capital (particularly as it is impacted by invention/innovation).

P.S. In the US right = individualism and left = collectivism, that is not the same as "..State Control = Left Non-State Control = Right."

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

I wasn't trying to posit a defense of Communism. I think it is a terribly flawed system. I was simply pointing out that all attempts at Communism quickly devolved into garden variety dictatorships.

P.S. In the US right = individualism and left = collectivism, that is not the same as "..State Control = Left Non-State Control = Right."

Really? So abortion control laws are a Leftist policy? Morality laws are Leftist policies?

As I said, too simple a construct. Libertarians are an aspect of the Right, although they also can be construed to be on the Left depending on you look at it. That's why the double axle grid is a better indicator of ideology than simply Left and Right.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

"Abortion control laws" are a defense of the individual's natural right to life. Abortions are defended/justified usually on collectivist grounds, such as: society will suffer from the birth of unwanted children, teenage girls who give birth will become a burden upon society, etc.. I need examples/definitions of what you include under the rubric of morality laws in order to respond to that aspect of your comment.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

No Bolshevik is a true communist. By definition Bolsheviks like Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky all hoped to create a "communist paradise" in a pre-industrialized country (Russia). According to the marxist dialectic communism can only be created in countries that are already industrialized. In addition the Bolsheviks also believed that a communist country could be created through the use of a small, disciplined, and dedicated, group of revolutionaries. This again contradicts the Marxist dialectic, which dictates that communism can only be created through a mass revolution led by the majority social class.

P.S. Even though the Bolsheviks were not 100% consistent with marxist dogma, they were members of the communist party, their stated goals were communist, and their actions were intended to establish a world wide communist system, as a result all the Bolsheviks must be considered communists.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

for the most part. I would argue that Lenin and Trotsky were true believers where Stalin was a cold ruthless Machiavellian character who would have used whatever means necessary to gain power.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Universal sufferage
Voting for women
A state that sanctioned an eight-hour workday for all workers
A minimum wage
To show the same confidence in the labor unions as is given to industry executives or public servants
A strong progressive tax on capital

The other items in the Fascist manifesto are more specific to Italy of the 1930's, but are definately of a socialist nature such as:
Armaments factories are to be nationalised
The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

Universal sufferage - What's the point of universal suffrage if your vote is meaningless?

Voting for women How does this differ from the previous point?

A state that sanctioned an eight-hour workday for all workers - Not in favor. While I think that a standard work week should be identified it should not be legally enforced.

A minimum wage - Mostly indifferent to it. It doesn't do much and certainly not worth the political fighting.

To show the same confidence in the labor unions as is given to industry executives or public servants Not sure what this means but neither Hitler or Mussolini paid much attention to unions.

A strong progressive tax on capital While it sounds nice on paper I think it virtually impossible to tax capital which is why we tax the transfer of capital.

To be clear we were talking about Hitler and Mussolini not about abstract principles that were never put in place.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Universal sufferage and voting for women were listed separately on wiki page refering to the fascist manifesto so I listed them separately. But there is a difference. Universal sufferage refers to voting rights for all racial and social groups, not just based on sex. Voting rights for women would fall in as a subset of universal sufferage, but I assume it was considered a separate issue at the time and the fascists felt a need to point it out.

This happens to be a fascist principal I agree with. It's probably the only one, but I won't completely rule out the posibility that I'd agree with one or two other fascists policies.

I'm a bit surprised you don't support minimum wages, power for unions, progressive taxes (OK on income rather than capital), etc. Why are you a Democrat if you don't support such things? In particular, how can you support Obama if you don't support such things? (Maybe this really belongs in a different thread).

That's why the fascists gained so much power. They had SOMETHING that appealled to everyone. And they used propaganda to sway public opinion in their favor in both subtle and unsubtle ways. Things like say, portraying one social group as being radical enough to commit terrorist acts upon a school....

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

As I have said many times here but no one seems to believe I am not a Democrat. I am a Liberal. These are not synonomous terms.

Not sure how you got that I don't believe in equal voting rights from my comments. I made no such claim.

I am in favor of progressive taxes and I am in favor of unions as I see no reasonable argument to suggest that labor should not be allowed to collectively bargain.

I am indifferent to minimum wages, at least in this country, because I think they are largely ineffectual in the reality and that the people that argue for or against them do so purely on political terms.

I support Obama because I support many of his beliefs on social issues and, IMO, he takes very rational approaches to problems, at least for a politician.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

I am not sure if Stanley G. Payne is a political theorist, but he certainly
is a distinguished historian . He wrote this about fascism.  I think you should check it out. He claims that Fascism originated on the left. (Sorry for the threadjack)

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

This is what he says of the origins...

Italian Fascism began on the left, seeking to combine strong nationalism with modern developmentalism and an aggressive new style of activism that prized violence, idealism, and anti-materialism. While reenforcing Italian colonialism, Fascism originally embraced national liberation and rejected extreme imperialism and racism. Mussolini did not create the movement but skillfully guided himself to power as its Duce (Dux, or leader), at the same time moving the party to the right and engaging in practical compromise with Italy's established institutions. Though Fascists invented the term "totalitarian" for their new system, Mussolini was unable to complete a Fascist revolution and instead presided over a somewhat limited, semi-pluralist political dictatorship.

So its origins may have been from the Left, which is generally the source of political change, the term is used more to define what Mussolini created rather what it was originally intended to be.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

cause any harm to any individual, it matters, probably because in our new PC world, the PC police extent victim status to everyone and everything other than Christians or white males.

The PC police would have been screaming their heads off, had the group been muslim. The ones statistically more likely to cause violence over the world, and even recently, the big news producing violent acts in the US have either been committed by somebody with a very muslim sounding name, but their "religion was unknown," or because they were kooks, when exactly was the last time a fundamentalist Christian actually committed a shooting crime in the name of their faith?

But schools continue to think "tossing in an evil Christian" isn't going to hurt anything, because Christians are the majority blah blah blah.

I do think you are right that having the group be Christian probably wasn't planned, or intended to be intentionally insulting (and it is insulting given that there just really aren't that many Christian groups in the US out there killing people). But I don't think it really turns into much of a defense, because if they made the choice, and didn't even think about the implications of insult, what does that really say about their bias in the first place that they thought nobody should be troubled, bothered or offended, if the group was Christian?

I think that is the real problem we are seeing. It isn't some kind of "I'm a victim too" ideal, although for some Christians it may be, it is this idea that somehow Christians are the "real" threat to the world at this juncture in time. And this belief isn't unique.

That is the danger and that is the problem.

Good job projecting.

You sure do like to psychoanalyze, don't you, flyer? I can't count the number of times you've admonished someone for "projecting." I'm waiting for someone to start "telegraphing", "reflecting", "e-mailing" etc.

But I like you. I'm almost always 90% sure you're not actually being disingenuous on purpose. But it's nonetheless always "interesting" arguing with you. You're the type of guy who agrees that 2+2=4 but then disagrees with 2+3=5 ... from my perspective at least.

As for Hitler, well, he was a National Socialist. My own conclusion on him was that he was as much a creature of the Left as he is of the Right, meaning that he was an a**hole either way.

Why does it matter?

I've come to the conclusion that it does matter, actually. These sort of things add up.

It's like low-level propaganda that if not challenged swiftly becomes part of conventional wisdom. "Republicans are racists" for example. "Bush hates black people", "Pro-lifers support bombing abortion clinics", "Christian fundermentalists would resort to terrorism for school prayer ...", etc.

Look, in this same thread, I conceded that it's likely that there was no deliberate attempt to infuse a political message into the exercise, but it found its way in there nonetheless - personnel being policy and all that.

And as for CAIR, NAACP and NOW ... well, sauce for the goose and all that. While this is not personally directed at you, I must confess that I'm a bit impatient with Leftists demanding that Conservatives take the high road and eschew tactics the Left continues to unapologetically use.

It's like that martindorbit character on the "Help Send Redstate To Iraq" thread who was whining that even if the MSM was slanting its reporting on the Iraq War to the Left, Victoria and Jeff should promise that their reporting should not have any slant because "two wrongs don't make a right."

George W. Bush: He's A Folder ... Not A Fighter.

It's like low-level propaganda that if not challenged swiftly becomes part of conventional wisdom. "Republicans are racists" for example. "Bush hates black people", "Pro-lifers support bombing abortion clinics", "Christian fundermentalists would resort to terrorism for school prayer ...", etc.

I think this is the real harm.

It almost makes me sense that saying the decision to use christian fundamentalists didn't raise any flags, as if there really are tons of Christian fundamentalist groups out there just waiting to take over schools, shoot people and blow things up, is the real problem.

The fact that nobody spoke up and said "hey guys, do you really think it is wise to use this group for the excerise? Do you think it might be insenstive to them?" Says more about their bias than anything.

I think it is your point that it is low level propganda. Meant to gray the perception that something is true, even if it has very little basis in reality.

The fact that nobody spoke up and said "hey guys, do you really think it is wise to use this group for the excerise? Do you think it might be insenstive to them?" Says more about their bias than anything.

So the school should have been mindful of offending people outside of their school district?

Propaganda implies a willful attempt to deceive. I don't believe that was the case.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

referenced in an earlier post, you will see it is worse than that. They took a generic police scenario and INSERTED Christianity into it. Somebody at the school has an anti-Christian agenda and saw an opportunity to proseltize the entire school body with public funds. Nobody on the school board saw that, and Flyerhawk can't quite seem to understand that either.

You sure do like to psychoanalyze, don't you, flyer? I can't count the number of times you've admonished someone for "projecting." I'm waiting for someone to start "telegraphing", "reflecting", "e-mailing" etc.

I don't you realize how often I am assigned all sorts of political beliefs because I represent "The Left". Views that I often find anathema are often assigned to me as my hidden agenda. When you compare me to guys that play the "Your dictators are worse than mine" game then you are misconstruing my positions.

As for Hitler, well, he was a National Socialist. My own conclusion on him was that he was as much a creature of the Left as he is of the Right, meaning that he was an a**hole either way.

I said essentially the same thing upthread.

It's like low-level propaganda that if not challenged swiftly becomes part of conventional wisdom. "Republicans are racists" for example. "Bush hates black people", "Pro-lifers support bombing abortion clinics", "Christian fundermentalists would resort to terrorism for school prayer ...", etc.

Or "Democrats hate America" or "Democrats are Communists" or "Pro-choicers support killing babies in their 3rd trimester"? This knife cuts both ways.

And as for CAIR, NAACP and NOW ... well, sauce for the goose and all that. While this is not personally directed at you, I must confess that I'm a bit impatient with Leftists demanding that Conservatives take the high road and eschew tactics the Left continues to unapologetically use.

Personally I just want to see consistency from either side, which I don't usually see. If you wish to play in the Outrage! market then you should accept the debits as well as the credits.

As I have said before Political Correctness is defined as "That which offends others but doesn't offend me". Applies to both sides.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Flyerhawk-I spend all day working with autistic children,which most people believe takes patience, but I gotta tell you that I am in awe of your patience when discussing issues here.