Redstate

I can't believe how intelligent conservatives can say: "I'll vote for a passionately liberal Republican (Giuliani) before I vote for a politically-savvy guy like Romney who uses the English language to disguise how he feels about abortion and homosexuality but is clear about his positions on both issues when it is politically expedient for him.

Nor can I understand any Republican who can say that they won't vote for Romney because of his religion. That is just silly. Granted, I could understand the sentiment if Romney were a Scientologist or a Wiccan. But having been raised as a Latter-day Saint, I cannot believe the amount of bigotry I have encountered from people who greet me (and their Catholic friends) with kindness and then go around telling lies about what I (and their Catholic friends) believe.

If you want to investigate Mormonism, then do so. But don't just pass on hearsay. Catholics sometimes lie about Protestants. Evangelicals sometimes lie about Mormons. Some Christians (Henry Ford) have a reprehensible record for lying about Jews. Some Christians today say things about Muslims that aren't true. But to resort to passing on every negative thing that you here is loathsome. Attacking a person's religious beliefs is just as bigoted as saying, "I hate black people." Telling lies about their religious beliefs is wrong whether it is done by a knowing defamer or an innocent dupe of the same.

---

I guess we want someone who is a stalwart conservative who appeals to non-conservatives (only 40% of voters are conservative: that's not a majority).

Even Reagan was not an ideologically pure conservative either before or after he became president. He raised taxes as governor and as president. He raised taxes in his second term after painting Mondale as a "tax-hiking liberal".

Reagan got his gift for speaking as a 20-year veteran of acting and a 40-year veteran of the after-dinner-speaking world. We're not going to get one of those every time.

Romney is as gifted as Reagan when it comes to speaking. He is now clear on his position on abortion: he's against it abortion-on-demand. Giuliani was NARAL's "person of the year".

for Mitt's father's political career. I would hate to think that we have become more bigoted in the last 40 years.

I like Mitt Romney, and I am very, very pro-life. Before I really understood what "pro-choice" was, I was pro-choice also. So, I guess I flipped.
I will vote for him, despite his religion. I do know something about being a Mormon because I used to be one. I am now a born-again Christian and understand the differences very well. One problem I have with the Mormon religion is that its members insist on being called Christian's, even though they deny the Deity of Christ. Jesus and Satan being brothers just doesn't sit well with me-and it is not biblical. Jesus created Satan. Satan is a fallen angel. Jesus is God. Big difference.
Yet, despite the above, I like Romney. What I like about him is that he communicates well and he comes across very strong. I am tired of wishy washy and caving to the liberal crowd. Mitt, as governor, refused to provide state security to Iran's "Hitler" during his visit. That took guts. Yet, I may vote for Guilliani-but he bothers me a bit more than Romney. I've read that Guilliani can be quite nasty-yet, he understands this War that we are in and we need someone with a stomach made of iron. If either one wins the GOP primary-well, they have my vote, regardless of religious affiliation and/or their stand on abortion. I will swallow hard, hold my nose, and vote for the REPUBLICAN. I did in November, and I'm from New York.

given his history and the fact that many professing past Christian presidents' policies were at odds with promoting the judeo-christian values this nation was built upon. Romney promotes the shared values.

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

I deeply resent your deliberately deceptive presentation of Mormon doctrine. Particularly as you claim to be an authority on the subject as an ex-Mormon.

Too state that Mormons deny the Deity of Christ is a lie. Mormon doctrine clearly identifies Christ as divine "from the beginning" in a multitude of sources, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Mormon Sunday School manual and countless statements by the Church leaders over the pulpit. Not once do any of these sources deny that Christ is God. I repeat, it is repeatedly stated in all sources of Mormon doctrine that Christ is God.

What you really object to is that our concept of the Trinity is different than that proclaimed in the Nicaean creed. Mormons believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are three individuals, with separate substance, who are one God, with one mind and purpose. The Nicaean creed says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of the same substance.

Now you can quite legitimately say that the Mormon understanding of Christ as Deity is different than other Christians, perhaps even pointing out the actual disagreement. You could even argue that although Mormons profess the Deity of Christ that you feel the Mormon concept of Christ is logically inconsistent with Christ being God.

But you did not do that. Instead you stated that Mormons deny the Deity of Christ, which as a ex-Mormon you know to be false. As you know, before any person can be baptized a Mormon they must first confess Christ in an interview with either a pastor or a missionary. Every two years, before a Mormon can enter the temple, he must confess Christ to his pastor. Yet you and others refuse to address your true disagreements with Mormon doctrine, instead you tell lies.

I apologize to the other readers of this site for my strong response. I do not wish to start a debate on the legitimacy of Mormon doctrine. However, I am deeply angered by those who spread falsehoods about my acceptance of Christ as my God. Christ is my God, and I must protest others telling me that he isn't.

I am wounded when people refuse to believe my confession of faith, because of liars like Renate who spread these falsehoods. When they are spread by the misinformed I try to be patient, but when they obviously know better and deliberately being deceptive I must strongly protest.

As Republicans we all know the difficulty of struggling against Known Facts. Well there are Known Facts about Mormons too, and I resent their presentation as evidence about Mormon beliefs- particularly by someone who knows better.

First, calm down already. The man you're responding to actually supports your candidate. You'd better hope it stays that way.

Second, FYI, the Nicean Creed [1](along with the Apostle's Creed,[2] which says much the same thing) constitutes the historic definition of Christianity. Now don't get your knickers in a twist, but the reason why the early church wrote these creeds is because there were a lot of contemporary groups which claimed to be Christian but were not. So the Church put together these creeds which spelled out in explicit language the basic tenants to which all Christians had to adhere.

My point is this: it matters that you Mormons don't adhere to those creeds. It matters that you don't accept the trinity. It matters because those creeds (especially the two I've mentioned) define what historic Christianity really is, and (just as important) what it is not. I'm not trying to offend you, but that means you don't belong to this particular club. That doesn't mean you're a bad person, and it doesn't even mean that you're wrong. Heck, I'll even admit you could be right. With the metaphysical realm anything's possible. Who knows? Maybe, when we both get to heaven, it'll be me that can't find a place to stay. Or maybe we'll both be on the outside looking in as the Jews get a pass through the pearly gates. But none of that changes the fact that Christianity, as an historical institution, does not include Mormonism. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.

[1] http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reform...
[2] http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reform...

A precedent embalms a principle.
- Disraeli

Cicero stated that you could argue the points you did and have a more legitimate argument. He even brought up the point of contention. He just wanted to be clear on his view of Christ which I think is understandable. You choose to define him out of Christianity and that is your prerogative. I guess your both now on the record now.

A Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever. -John Adams

and I was calm when I wrote that. I assure you my blood pressure was perfectly normal, and I don't know why anybody would think otherwise.

A precedent embalms a principle.
- Disraeli

Given that they reject that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. This isn't a quibble; the filoque clause was put in there by Rome as part of the repudiation of the Arian heresy, while Constantinople was always dealing with the problems represented by the Monophysites (who would probably be upset themselves to be not considered true Christians, if we could only ask them). It remains a... slightly touchy subject, even today.

I note this merely as a sidebar. :)

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

As good, red-blooded, Lord-fearing Americans, we are naturally concerned about whether members of a particular religion have spots reserved in heaven. We won't know for certain until later. In the meantime, how about we all shake hands and agree that:

"If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes,
They will find the streets are guarded by United States Marines."

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

and a markedly different religion.

I think you overstate the filioque controversy, not in that it isn't important but because the refusal of the Eastern Rite churches to adhere to its use in the Nicene Creed has never been used at least in recent centuries, anyway -- to call into question their Christianity.

If your assertion were correct, we Catholics would not recognize the priesthood of the Eastern rite churches to include accepting their priests as Roman Catholic priests.

so it sounds like a few more centuries with Mormonism around might do the trick then.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

but it will take a lot more than time to "do the trick."

from the mormons. if nothing else, it will hurry along a reconciliation.

for instance, mormons actually keep the Lord's sabbath holy (rather than, say, running out after church to go shopping).

for instance, mormons are remarkable at keeping themselves chaste until marriage.

it is admirable how well mormons put christ's teachings into practice, generally.

many other christians are admirable for the same reasons. two of my closest friends are deeply pious catholics who are the picture of all that is christian.

but the majority of christians no longer keep the sabbath. and quite a few fail to remain chaste. and then there are other questions of modesty of dress, modesty of language, and so on.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

I didn't think I'd get much besides indignation in response to that post...

Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only non-Mormon who sees this.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Baptist preachers and GC. One of the biggest mission fields for Christians is in Christian Church pews and in the homes of their neighbors on Sunday AM. I gain no comfort that we are better than Europe and am glad that African missionaries now come to America to win us to Christ!

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

When did that start ?
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

African missionaries at a luncheon in ATL

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

... but doesn't the story about Jesus healing on the sabbath suggest that keeping the sabbath was actually one of the aspects of Jewish law that Jesus was rebelling?

But don't take my word for it, I'm an atheist!

so long as it was necessary to prevent death or serious impairment of health.

And Christians always kept the Sabbath until the last several decades. Remember blue laws? That's just one example.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Well, don't take my word for it, I'm an atheist. But here's the apostle Paul in his letter to the Colossians:

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

I take that to mean that outward diplays of religiosity are spiritually meaningless, and are, in fact, the result of imposing human laws, not godly ones. What do you think?

and I can't say for certain what it means.

That said, here are my thoughts:

I'm not sure that Paul meant his statement to apply categorically.

"16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

Is Paul thinking of ANYONE making ANY judgment about what you eat or drink, or about what you do on the Sabbath? I would assume he's thinking more of the Pharisees in particular.

Also, we would need to look at other things which Paul said about the Sabbath, and the things Jesus said about the Sabbath.

Finally, Christians preserved the keeping of the Sabbath - not the Jewish keeping of the Sabbath but nonetheless the keeping of the Sabbath - for nearly two millenia. Were they just mistaken?

It's possible they were mistaken and it was always meant for the Sabbath to disappear entirely. I don't deny the possibility. We'd need more than this passage to prove it, though.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

I have to confess that I feel a little odd debating Christian theology ... I kind of feel like Lt. Scheisskopf's wife in Catch-22, who told Yossarian that "the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be."

That said, I suspect that you're right that this should be read a reaction to specifically Jewish rules about behavior, because early Christianity largely consisted of Jewish converts.

But given that the rules that the Jewish clergy were enforcing are those from what Christians regard as the old testament, I think it's difficult to reconcile a passage like this with the insistence of some that (some) of the old testament behavoural laws remain on the books, so to speak.

I also think it's striking that NO-ONE in the Christian faith suggests that they should ALL be enforced (read Leviticus in full!) ... it's always a select few. That makes me feel that the real authority lies with those doing the selecting, not the original authors of the rules.

there is nothing to reconcile. It isn't like the Mormon Church is a Christian sect. It isn't. They are a separate religion which, to one extent or another, uses Christianity as a point of departure.

Saying they are Christians is like saying Christians are Jews, because they share Scripture. Or like saying muslims are Christians because they acknowledge Jesus, though in a form Christians don't agree with.

I'm not a big believer in religiosity. Observing the Sabbath according to a peculiar way is not necessarily a virtue. Why, for instance, is shopping after church bad? Beats me.

As to the other, I think your comparison is pretty silly because you seem to think all Mormons are practicing. That is no more true among Mormons than it is among Christians.

None of this is to say there are not virtues in the Mormon religion. There are. But those virtues are not unique.

I'm in basic agreement with gideon on this point. I've always been impressed with the way that Mormons in general adhere to the tenets of their faith; not just the ones that are peculiar to their sect, but also some that many mainline Christians do a very poor job at following. They are also generally very optimistic people, and a pleasure to be around. I'm pleased to count several of them as friends, whatever I might think of their theology.

I also have some thoughts about this particular discussion, but I'll save those for a FP post.

------------
[F]or by the fundamental law of Nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred...

-John Locke

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

maybe you should ask yourself why for the better part of two millenia, christians kept the sabbath, and only very recently stopped keeping it.

maybe you're disregard for it has little to do with christianity and much more to do with following the current fashion.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

buy a clue and not argue subjects you don't really understand because at this juncture it is pretty obvious that you are just trolling.

For instance, contra your view, 1 billion Catholics believe this:

The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A bit of advice here. Before you toss out an abjectly stupid statement like:

maybe you're disregard for it has little to do with christianity and much more to do with following the current fashion.

take a couple of minutes to consider your own stunning lack of knowledge on the subject which is further compounded by the fact that you don't know me or my Sabbath practices.

We were having an honest and civil disagreement until now. It's not necessary to get hostile and condescending and dismissive.

I hope you will consider returning to a peaceful discussion.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

and not only to me, but to Gamecock and to the others in this posting who agreed with my comments.

I don't know why you think you are entitled to speak in such condescending, dismissive and insulting language, but you are not. We are conservatives here engaged in an open and civil discussion - or rather, we could be, if you didn't interrupt with such hostility.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

You can't take reasonable, calm debate. You have to resort to insults and arrogance.

You know a great deal about some things, especially the military. But your dismissive attitude toward everyone who disagrees with you is not a sign of your superior knowledge. It shows us only your weakness.

Other RedState editors also know a lot about some things. Yet Moe, Thomas, Academicelephant, Dan, Adam C and the others never seem to have to interject with such dismissive and hostile condescension. You should consider their examples.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

You just generally like my choice of targets.

Moe

PS: I don't approve of these sorts of posts. If you have a problem with another poster, take it to email. If you have a problem with a moderator, take it up with the Directors via email.

(Harvey Keitel)
So pretty please, with sugar on top.
(/Harvey Keitel)

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

it's not that i just like your choice of targets. it's that you actually have a sense of proportion and decency.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

It was an argument against one of Leverkhun's. :)

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

Firstly, I am a woman. Secondly, I stand by what I said. I am not trying to deceive anyone regarding the Mormon religion. It is when I started to truly question what I believed that I found the Truth in Jesus Christ.
I am truly sorry that you are offended. I know what the Mormon religion believes and teaches about Jesus Christ. I can defend my position on this point to you-however this is not the place for it. If you wish, you may e-mail me at Ren81124@hotmail.com, where we can discuss this further. I want to vote for Mitt Romney, for the reasons I stated earlier. Since he is running for president, I am sure that these discussions will continue. The Diety of Christ is only one of MANY difference that Christians have with Mormons. I can defend what I believe and am not incensed or angry when someone questions what I believe. I welcome it.

should refuse, as did JFK, to discuss theology. He has a long record of promoting judeo-christian values and many professing Christians (see Clintons and most elected DC dems) have long records of trying to undermine those values.

amen gal?

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

game,

With all due respect, Mitt needs to deal with the "Mormon" issue head on.

I think every day he holds a bible/Mormon theology class at the back of the bus. Anyone wanting to know about his religion is welcome to come, learn and ask questions if they want. Make it a real spiritual event and he can invite some heavy hitters in from his church, other churches and anyone he cares to assist him on the trickier parts of the brier patch.

Other than the once a day, or once a week session, Mitt needs to refuse outright to discuss his personal religion in a political setting, or at press conferences or greet and grins or any other time. The door is open during the time set aside to dialog, study and yes pray sessions to discuss matters of personal faith.

A move like that takes religion out of the political process and puts it where it belongs, as a one on one expression of faith. Don't run from it, embrace it, and who knows, might even win a few converts.

_______________________________
Dennis Miller for President...no more wimps!

due respect from a NON-dj

We don't do that to Christians or anyone else. Yes, come film our church service, but discussions of theology are irelevant and would be used, not to access his qualifications, but rather to gin up a debate about whether Mormons are Christians, which is irrelevant.

Mitt doesn't ignore "the issue", he just doesn't discuss theology. He points to his life record and his values.

We don't ask Hillary whether Jonah was in the whale.

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Game.

Well then we disagree. One way to confront bigotry in my book is to confront it.

Peace

_______________________________
Dennis Miller for President...no more wimps!

so naturally the question isn't asked

If Romney were Democrat, he'd get as many questions on Mormonism as Harry Reid does.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

To Mormons and Others:

I recommend the book: How Wide The Divide, A Mormon & an Evangelical in Conversation by Blomberg & Robinson

I am a Mormon, and I appreciate the arguments of others why I am not a Christian. Obviously I feel I am a Christian and obviously they feel I am not. Life goes on. My salvation is not dependant upon anyone calling me a Christian except Christ when I see him at my judgement.

The book I recommend helps it's readers to understand the differences and similarities between the sects and religions. It is not comprehensive and only covers 4 areas of interest. At 228 pages, it's easy reading. It's an invitation to understand and appreciate other's beliefs from those that know and are active in their beliefs.

I agree that Romney needs to handle the Mormon issue head on, but let's be realistic, what he says now is not heard by very many. In fact with the polls as they are, he is heard by very few. Romney will address this issue once the audience is listening. It will be interesting to see when his people feel that time has arrived.

Best wishes on the 2008 journey,
Nathan W.

as his saviour that he is not a Christian no matter my disagreements with his church's confession. The Bible says that whosoever believeth in him shall have everlasting life. My Bible also tells me to "Go ye" and that our duty is to win people to Christ, so I rejoice when any man professes to a world that deems the gospel a scadal and that despises Christ's message, that jesus is his Lord.

You, RS are my brother in Christ even if us Baptists have the theology right! smile

Romney also professes this, and so he is my brother too.

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Mike,

When I see Christ and he tells me I was wrong for being a Mormon, I will repent and ask what he would like me to do. Until then, I will enjoy my faith and fellowship. I'll even smile as you say your theology is right :D

Your Brother,
Nathan W.

What is head on besides an annoying TV commercial?

Romney needs to assure voters not of his faith that he will not be held to the proclaimations of the LDS president. This is a real and valid concern. It was a concern that JFK would be held to the declarations of the Pope. It was debated at the turn of the century in our US Senate when then Senator-elect Smoot, an apostle in the LDS church, was elected to the Senate. Would he follow the Mormon prophet in his role as Senator? After days of debate, the answer was no. His record stuck to that early decision.

What most people not of the Mormon faith do not know is how separate church and state are within the LDS Church. Some local politics in Utah and Idaho would disagree, but the leaders of the LDS church draw a disinct line in the sand when it comes to church and politics. Politicans are to act according to their conscience and not according to church leaders. Obviously, Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader and democrat, is a good example of that.

NPR's "On Point" discussed this topic at http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2007/02/20070213_a_main.asp.

For those who are throwing the "B" word around: I wonder where you folks see the line between bigotry and questioning the factual accuracy of the things that a person believes?

I find this question pretty acute when I contemplate mormonism. I've read the Book of Mormon and I am obviously aware of Joseph Smith's claims of how it came to be.

I find the whole story of the gold plates, the angels, the seer stones and so on to be absurd on its face, and the Book of Mormon reads to me like a cheap pastiche of the King James bible that was churned out by a second-rate hack.

I would go further and say that I think all of this is so obvious that I would doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of anyone who believes that Joseph Smith's claims were literally true (and I'd love for someone to ask Mitt Romney whether he actually does ... I bet he'd hedge).

Now, would anyone here say that my opinion is an example of bigotry?

If so, what, I wonder, is the difference between me having an opinion about the factual basis for someone's religious beliefs and having an opinion about their beliefs about, say, baseball.

christ never rose.

and according to many, the new testament reads like a "cheap pastiche", to use your phrase, of the hebrew scriptures.

i wouldn't say your opinion is bigoted. i'd just say it's not well-considered.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Well, Gideon, I might very well think that indeed: I make no secret of my atheism. But the topic is Mormonism, and I think the point is clearer than with Christianity because the circumstances of the origins of the Book of Mormon are much better documented because of their relative proximity to our own time.

I'm kind of surprised by your take, though. You're a Christian, right? So you must believe that Joseph Smith's claims are false. I mean, the two faiths make mutually incompatible claims. They can't both be right. If you are a Christian, you must believe that Joseph Smith made it all up.

So what to make of someone who believes that Joseph Smith's claims are literally true? What's your normal reaction to someone who believes something to be true when it is obvious to you that it is false?

In that light, is my take still surprising to you? (not a rhetorical question)

I wasn't necessarily saying what I believed. I was making an argument that perhaps some judge Mormons too quickly and by standards which guarantee bias.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Well, I obviously pulled the wrong rein there!

I assumed from the way that you referred to the resurrection that you thought that it was an example of something that was self-evidently true. Perhaps you were making a slightly slyer point!

I think the interesting question here, which I think it inherent in your previous post, is by what standard do we judge the factual claims that religions make ... that is, do we treat them like any other factual claims, or do they receive privileged treatment (and if so, why)?

I'm genuinely curious, though, about how people of other faiths regard the factual claims of Mormonism, and what conclusions they draw about those who believe them.

i can't provide more than the beginning of an answer, but it's an important question.

my more immediate point to critics of Mormonism in particular is that they should apply the same standards to their own religious beliefs (or non-religious beliefs).

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

But that's easy for me to say!

for introducing me to that passage from the letter to the colossians. i'd never read it, and that's a particularly interesting passage.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Mere Christianity

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

I've also read a number of his other works on religion and literature. He's a personal favorite. I've been meaning to read his "The Problem of Pain" for some time. I've read a little and it's quite good, as one might expect.

My personal favorites are The Abolition of Man and The Four Loves. If you haven't read these, I highly recommend them.

(I subscribe to the faith of the original Gideon.)

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

Why stop with the Mormon books? Let's look at the New Testament. As one critic wrote,

"The Old Testament. Yes that is something quite different, all honour to the Old Testament! I find therein great men, an heroic landscape, and one of the rarest phenomena in the world, the incomparable naiveté of the strong heart; further still, I find a people. In the New, on the contrary, just a hostel of petty sects, pure rococo of the soul, twisting angles and fancy touches, nothing but conventicle air, not to mention an occasional whiff of bucolic sweetness which pertains to the epoch (and the Roman province) and is less Jewish than Hellenistic."

The point is that your own basis for finding the Mormon books "cheap" might itself be cheap, but you've come to accept it as not cheap.

A more objective evaluation might be merited before we conclude that the Mormon books are cheap.

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

Like that, what you don't do is try to drive them into the ground. I'll say (and apologize) right now for kicking sand into Newt Gingrich's face relatively recently. I'll listen to Gingrich if he decides to run. But in the meantime even though I know Romney is an imperfect candidate, I'm not going to let the Usual Suspects tear him down.

Both of my parents agree, and you can't find anyone in this country more conservative than my father. He's willing to step back for a few more months and give Romney the space to either emerge as the front runner or have his record prevent him from doing so. My mother likes him personally, and thinks he's head and shoulders above everyone else in the "speaking and charisma" department.

Those are assets we shouldn't flush down the proverbial toilet just because Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and John Edwards decided to declare so early.

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

According to the latest USA Today poll, 24% of Americans would never vote for a Mormon for President. However...

30% said they'd never vote for a guy who has been married three times for President.

40% said they'd never vote for a 72-year-old for President.

This proves one of two things, and I'll let you decide which. Either 1) Giuliani and McCain are even more unelectable than Romney, or 2) Questions in polls like these don't matter a whole lot because candidates become more than a generic description of their various qualities.

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After the 2006 elections, al Qaeda released a statement saying they were happy Democrats won. That should tell you all you need to know.

I'm not a South Park Republican, I'm a King of the Hill libertarian.

In 1960 the Catholic Church itself was viewed as technically a cult (narrowly defined as adding outside authority to the canon) by many protestants, esp in the South. But JFK carried a majority of southern states anyway.

This was at atime when there were much fewer catholics in the South. By contrast, most Southerners know Mormons and admire them for their conservative values and well behaved children.

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson

If you are correct, I will support and work for Mitt Romney until the last hour of the last day. It doesn't mean I think he can win, but I would do everything in my power to try for him.

But I took it as, "it's entirely possible we've been wrong these 2,000 years." I stand open to correction, but it didn't even ping my radar.

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Even those who learn from history are surrounded by those doomed to repeat it.

What I meant was that there's always the possibility, especially when we're dealing in abstract metaphysical concepts, that I am wrong and and somebody else (Mormons, Jews, Buddhists, etc.) is right. It was certainly not a slap at the Jews.
A precedent embalms a principle.
- Disraeli

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher