Redstate

If he HAD charged in, we'd have heard how he didn't trust the WOMAN governor or the BLACK mayor, so he went riding in like a cowboy, trampling over the people who were closest to the scene and better knew how to deal with it. Anything that went wrong would have been because he was a racist misogynyst instead of trusting Babineaux and Nagin.

At least it made it pretty easy for the MSM. They were able to prepare reports blaming Bush regardless of what the camera hog governor or the incompentent mayor did or didn't do.

Bush was warned in a meeting about "over-topping" (which equals getting your pants wet up to your thigh) but NEVER about "breaching" (which is what actually happened.) As normal, the press “mistakenly” reported that breaching was discussed in the meeting of the President with experts, but it was not discussed. They (the experts) expected the levees to work as advertised. The levees didn’t "over-top" with high water--they fell over.

From:
Investigators Link Levee Failures to Design Flaws
By Joby Warrick and Michael Grunwald, Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, October 24, 2005; Page A01

Today, exactly eight weeks after the storm, all three breaches are looking less like acts of God and more like failures of engineering that could have been anticipated and very likely prevented.

[...]

Experts now believe that Katrina was no stronger than a Category 3 storm when it roared into New Orleans, and Congress had directed the Corps to protect the city from just such a hurricane. "This was not the Big One -- not even close," said Hassan Mashriqui, a storm surge expert at LSU's Hurricane Center. He said that Katrina would have caused some modest flooding and wind damage regardless, but that human errors turned "a problem into a catastrophe."

[...]

Investigators now believe the walls collapsed when the soils beneath them became saturated and began to shift under the weight of relatively modest surges from the lake. And newly released documents show that the Corps was aware years ago that a particularly unstable layer of soil lay beneath both floodwalls. "These levees did not overtop, yet they failed anyway," said Peter Nicholson, an engineering professor at the University of Hawaii at Manoa and leader of the ASCE investigating team. "It's important that we find out now exactly what went wrong, because the Corps is already starting to rebuild."

[...]

"The depth of the pilings becomes important," said Bea, because the "tips of the sheet piles may not have penetrated the peat." Meanwhile, because the canal was dredged to an even greater depth, water was able to penetrate the peat layer from the inside, investigators said. "There was a gap where water could get through," said Ivor Van Heerden, the deputy director of the LSU Hurricane Center and the leader of the Louisiana forensic investigation. "Water was able to get around or through those pilings to the other side and start weakening the structure." Reports of problems with the soft underlayer began to surface even before the floodwalls were finished. In 1994, the now-defunct Pittman Construction Co., a New Orleans firm involved in levee construction, claimed in court documents that floodwall sections were failing to line up properly because of unstable soils. An administrative law judge dismissed the complaint on technical grounds in 1998, without specifically addressing the allegations about weak soils. Katrina's storm surge put the floodwalls to the ultimate test. Hours after the storm hit, water poured into the canals from Lake Pontchartrain and added enormous strain to the walls and levees. According to a scenario developed by Bea and other investigators, the already-saturated peat was the path of least resistance, allowing the water to burst through the wall from underneath. At the 17th Street Canal, truck-size chunks of the old earthen levee were heaved 35 feet on a carpet of sliding soil.

FEMA did NOT react heroically. It was an utter mess, and indeed interdicted other rescuers trying to go in and help. (It was the Coast Guard and Fish & Wildlife and many private rescuers who did a heroic job.)

FEMA is not law enforcement. That isn't their job, but for some reason, that's what they were expected to do. Law enforcement would consist of the NOLA police (Nagin), the state police (Blanco), and the national guard (Blanco). Remember, half the police force went AWOL. That was the part that wasn't exaggerated. Of course, that might have not been a problem had there been an evacuation. I guess Nagin's disaster plan was "every man for himself."

Even though the mass murders were exaggerated, there WAS rampant and horribly dangerous lawlessness and violence, with women being raped openly in the streets and gangs not just looting but attempting carjackings and violently breaking into houses.

So you mean it wasn't as bad as NOLA is on a normal day?

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"I am a great believer in luck. The harder I work, the more I have of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

For lying.
I had family friends and clients in NO as it happened.
You sir, are full of bs.
You are blaming FEMA for what the contractors's corruption did in constructing levees 40 years ago?
Well what families were in charge of the levee money?
Blanco and Landrieu, etc.
Your Bushie comments only show you to be yet another mindless lefty kosbot.

Sir, I had family and friends there, too. As a matter of fact, my brother became a minor national celebrity for NEVER leaving. Meanwhile, for you to call me a lefty kosbot is just effing idiotic. You have no clue. I've done more for the conservative cause and worked longer in the conservative vineyards than just about anybody around. I've been published dozens of times in National Review Online. I'm the executive editor of The American Spectator -- are you saying the AmSpec is a left-wing Kosite rag? I could go on, but what's the point if all you are going to do is launch ad hominem, fact-less attacks? As for the "families in charge of the levee money"-- huh? The engineering flaws were the fault of the Corps, 40 years ago, even before MOON Landrieu was mayor. And the Blanco "family" wasn't even remotely involved in politics back then. I did not blame FEMA for those engineering failures.

all thee hot air you want.
On this topic, you are full of it.

to read his creds and take heed because right now you're damaging yourself from where I sit.

Then liberal professors on campus would be the wise men we dare not challenge. Can we debate these things on the merits of the arguments as opposed to who has the best credentials? I found his list to be a rant. I can understand why being emotionally close to people on the ground, but it was a rant none the less.

I'm just sick of hearing everyone personally touched by New Orleans and Katrina whine and rant. MS may be no better off, but at least I don't have to hear them whine and rant all over again one year later.

cannot be plain, bad faith wrong?
And I am supposed to bow down before a blow hard who claims to be a big time conservative when he is simply parroting the bilge of lies about Katrina?
No thanks.

The point is that this guy's been vetted by enough credible right-wingers that you can't write him off as a nut.
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If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

that doesn't mean he can't be wrong or misguided and hiding behind his credentials.

Elsewhere on the site is a list of seemingly intelligent, rational highly credentialed people who are convinced 9/11 was a put up job. They have credentials too but that doesn't prevent them from playing on those credentials to propagate a lie.

I will agree that it is foolish to question his conservative 'bona fides', but I see nothing wrong with questioning, in the strongest terms, false or misguided assertions about other matters.

YMMV, SAR, BNI.

John
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Why would God invent a thing like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.

By all means, challenge his statements, but don't just attack him personally and dismiss what he writes as delusional ravings.
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If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

Appealing to your alleged pedigree, in the complete absence of fact, really is beneath someone as wonderful you proclaim yourself to be.
The entire city of NO, I guess excepting knuckleheads like your brother, was basically evauated in about a week.
I know of Federal gov. responses being flown in to NO for rescue as the storm ebbed on the Monday prior to the levee collapses.
I know that the FAA was flying in emergency response into NO bby Tuesday AM to re-establish the airport.
I know that significant federally coordinated evac was occurring on Wed afternoon, becasue the 80+ my brother in law sheltered and rescued at his church were on buses by Wed. eve.
That is less than 48 hours post Katrina landfall, for the record.
The city was basically empty by Sunday.

Why would a self-proclaimed briliant person buy into the bs position of thumb twiddling?
Pooh on that, sir.
And pooh on NO.
I will help people in Mississippi all day long.
I will continue to put money and effort there.
I will not drop one nickle on the corru-pt racist quagmire that has been allowed to fester in NO.

not all of the NOLA area is bad...Cooter Browns has one of the best selections of beer I've ever seen.

that the State of Louisiana and every political subdivision thereof has something styled as an Office or Emergency Management or a similar title or a functional equivalent under the Adjutant General or the Public Safety Department. Those offices have been recieving anywhere from significant to outright massive federal funding for many years, mostly through FEMA, but also NGB/DOD and DHSS and sometimes USDOT. There is an army of Planners, Emergency Response Managers, and Disaster Relief Specialists or whatever the particular government chooses to classify them as.

For those same many years, but especially since Clinton discovered all that beautiful money that FEMA had now that the need for nuclear attack response had receded, huge grants and contracts as well as ongoing funding have poured into the the State of Louisiana and every other state for comprehensive, formal disaster plans and frequent table top exercises with state and local disaster management teams and FEMA Type I incident command teams. Every state has this structure and has had access to that funding for many years, so it ain't like poor LA was left out by the evil Bush Administration.

Now they either used that money for its intended purpose, had the staff and plans in place and just failed to execute the plans or, in a fashion for which NO/LA is famous, they used the money for some other "purpose."

Let's be honest here; which is it? Did they fail in executing the plan? Did they try and just become overwhelmed? Or did they just create a bunch of do-nothing patronage positions and steal the rest of the disaster response money?

In Vino Veritas

So the people of New Orleans didn't choose Nagin to be mayor again, it was the responsibility of the Bush Administration?
The people of New Orleans just aren't responsible for much of anything that happens to them. They certainly look like a bunch of people with no control over their own destiny. Actually, it was the people of New Orleans that condemned themselves to four more years of Nagin. It's called an election, otherwise known as the "will of the people".

Maybe you can show up for the next hurricane as commander and show us all how it's done. I'm sure the people at FEMA will be blessed to have such insightful leadership.

Number 6 is opinion but number 4 is not?

As for number 5, well yes, that's the point. Don't entrust everything to the feds, particularly physical safety at the local level.

Number 2, you're not making the case for New Orleans, which as a Democrat machine city looks like a third world country when it gets hit by a hurricane as evident by all the rape and pillage you insist happened. If you don't want to be raped and pillaged after a hurricane, move to a red state.

FEMA's problems were not that it was expected to provide law enforcement. It's problems were that it was utterly unable to provide humanitarian relief.

The first would seem to be a precondition to the latter.

For the record, are you Quin from AmSpec?

It's problems were that it was utterly unable to provide humanitarian relief.

Law enforcement has to come first... if there is lawlessness, how is FEMA supposed to dispense aid?

Meanwhile, there WAS a mass evacuation, and by historical standards a very effective one.

Sure, an every man for himself evacuation. There was no assistance for those who couldn't evacuate themselves. They got to ride it out in the SuperDome... great plan.

Finally, your comment about new orleans on a regular day are beneath comtmpt.

Have you been there? Have you left the tourist areas? If you do, be sure to remember your bulletproof vest. NOLA is a dysfunctional city 365 days a year. Of course a hurricane is going to be more than they can cope with.

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"I am a great believer in luck. The harder I work, the more I have of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

But you likely have no conscinece, to match your lack of facts.
The evacuation of NO was utterly dependant on fedeal coordination, thanks to the Gov. and Mayor's abandonment of their jobs.
The buses were coordinated in by FEMA.
There was basically 0 'every man for himself' evac, since there were no open roads.
Go sell the swill you like at Kos or other malignant lying sites.

We're all on the same team here.

And all of their lies and whining have displaced a great deal of needed aid to the areas that were hit much harder over a much larger area.
Mississippi stepped up, shut down the looting, got aid going in pronto, and coordinataed with FEMA.
The lazy corrupt lying pieces of filth in NO are seriously making allegations of levees being blown up etc. Instead of working to rebuild their lives, they are lying around in free apartments in Houston, with all bills paid gratis, talking about the evil racist plots. Meanwhile, people in Miss. are working their fannies and getting on with their lives. I don't want to hear anyone who claims to be conservative, or even a patriot, claiming that FEMA was doing nothing, was not acting incredibly fast, or that aid got to NO inspite of the incompetents in NO and the La. Governor's office.
This reflexive need of some to beat up conservatives to keep things fair when liberal slimebots are out causing things to get worse really annoys me.

FEMA did NOT react heroically. ... (It was the Coast Guard and Fish & Wildlife and many private rescuers who did a heroic job.)

I'm sure you know that FEMA has no ships and helicopters of its own. It's role is to coordinate the activities of other agencies, including the Coast Guard. So when the Coast guard rescued all those people, that was FEMA at work.

I think you are on better ground with your comments on the recovery.

FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program.

Often FEMA works in partnership with other organizations that are part of the nation's emergency management system. These partners include state and local emergency management agencies, 27 federal agencies and the American Red Cross.

FEMA is not some organization with it's own fleet of ships or squadrons of helicopters. It's role is to coordinate the actions of other government agencies, and also of private relief groups such as the Red Cross and Salvation Army.

There is an argument to be made that this is an inefficient system, although it is not one I agree with. If you think it is inefficient the responsibility lies with those who created it - Congress.

and funding agency. It has what are styled Type I Incident Command Teams that do have initial management and coordination duties when a federal disaster is declared. The Type Is move in and coordinate with State and local disaster agencies and do have some command authority over federal or federalized resources.

The way it's 'sposed to work is that each state and political subdivision thereof has some sort of emergency/disaster response function and an emergency response plan ready to roll out. FEMA funds this planning activity and provides much of the operational funding through grants, contracts, and cooperative agreements. There are also cooperative agreements/compacts between states and localities to provide resources and staff when needs exceed local resources.

When an emergency occurs, the local government is the first responder. If the need exceeds local resources - and it always does for usually purely financial reasons, sometimes even true - then the local political authority calls on the Governor who has the state's emergency response resources and the National Guard at his/her disposal. At this time the Governor may and usually does issue a disaster declaration which places all state and polisub resources under state authority. If the need exceeds state resources, the Governor can, and usually does, request a federal disaster declaration. The President may or may not issue a disaster declaration. President Clinton almost always did if there was even a glimmer of a political advantage to it, whether or not it was warranted as a genuine need; President Bush has been much less willing to allow FEMA to be used as a political ATM. In any event, when the President issues the federal disaster declaration, federal resources as well as interstate resources under the cooperative agreements and compacts can be brought to bear.

In summary, FEMA has no "First Response" type capabilities; that is strictly a local and state matter. When a federal disaster is declared, FEMA does have the Type I incident command structure to bring immediately on scene for coordination of response activities but beyond that has no resources of its own beyond the federal checkbook and access to federal stores and logistics. The only "first response" capabilities, e.g., pulling people off roofs, are the National Guard if placed under federal command, the USCG, and the active military if the situation is that grave. Only the USCG has independent rescue authority and isn't subject to posse comitatus limitations.

I've had to deal with the personnel issues associated with disaster response many times and my wife for a long time was the Finance Officer for the Incident Command structure. We had a "disaster" in Alaska about once a week during the Clinton/Knowles Era, so we got a lot of practice - and saw a lot of outright fraud. My wife refused to authorize a single payment on the Koyukuk Flood "disaster" when they threw $70MM into an area with precisely 209 souls, but the house rep from that district was running against Don Young. Don't worry, the political appointee above her authorized it all.

We were watching the Katrina thing unfold and both of us were discussing what a damnable position GWB was in. It was evident from the beginning that NO and LA were about to be overwhelmed - they would have been even without the levee break. But Bush had to wait for the request for a disaster declaration since as a matter of law he could not bring federal resources to bear or put the LA NG under federal command in the absence of either a request or a state of insurrection. As best I understand it, it did go ahead the evening before the hurricane struck and make the federal declaration so that federal resouces could be brought to bear.

All emergency first response is a local and state responsibility and NO and LA simply failed. FEMA has never been anything but the disaster ATM beyond the planning and funding responsibilities. Since Clinton loathed the military, he always put Witt out front in his blue and gold FEMA jacket to make it look like FEMA was doing something other than writing checks, but even when the disasters went federal, it was the local and state resources, the USCG, and the NG doing all the real work.

The Bush Administration was simply mau maued on Katrina.
In Vino Veritas

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"I am a great believer in luck. The harder I work, the more I have of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

An informed and reasonable response.
What a nice contrast from the chest thumping posers.

I can understand a certain emotional involvement in the issue if you are from there, but ...

In Vino Veritas

Auiko and I agre on how good the lead post is.

Are you suggesting that FEMA does not coordinate the entire federal effort from within the DHS, much less the rest of the federal government not to mention state and local resources? I believe that’s the purpose of the ICS (Incident Command Center) which is covered in FEMA’s online training at http://www.training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/IS/is100.asp.

As authority over resources is granted to FEMA, they take over the logistics in this scalable model. This granting of authority is exactly what Blanco refused to do early on and explains the mess in coordinating state and local resources. FEMA simply did not have the authority to move state and local resources, including the Guard, which is why the Bush Administration actually considered invoking Civil War era martial law powers to gain that authority. They were considering the option of declaring Louisiana so lawless that it was no longer a functioning state with any sovereign authority. The Left would have loved that one.

But you’re telling me FEMA’s ICS didn’t control all of DHS’s resources during Katrina, particularly the Coast Guard which was moved to DHS following 9/11 so DHS could have direct control? Is that because Chertoff didn’t grant that authority or didn’t have the power to grant it? Were you able to confirm that in your interview with Secretary Chertoff?

So Chertoff doesn't grant FEMA the authority to control the rest of his DHS resources, but he expects the rest of the feds, the state and the locals to relinquish theirs? Is that his direction or does he not have the authority to put the Coast Guard under the operational control of FEMA? Since you seem to have the direct line to everyone who's anyone in the beltway, I really want an answer. It's one or the other.

I am in the same industryin Texas. This storm makes me wonder if we are not just one bad turn away from a similar 'tax'.
Did Rita do much up your way?
You are spot on about the Katrina kids. Some of them pistol whipped a neighbor lady of mine in April. They trashed our neighborhood school last year.