Redstate

There's proof positive that CfG is unfairly biased against Huck.

Maybe you should try reading all of them before you scream UNFAIR bias!

A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues.

Theodore Roosevelt

In the white papers, find issues where CfG criticizes Huckabee, but stays silent when the other candidates take the same exact position.

In the white papers, find issues where CfG criticizes Huckabee, but stays silent when the other candidates take the same exact position.

Any objective reading of the following excerpted comments from those eeevil people over at ClubForGrowth ( http://clubforgrowth.org/ ) that are out to smear Huck, clearly disproves your ridiculous insinuation ("In the white papers, find issues where CfG criticizes Huckabee, but stays silent when the other candidates take the same exact position.") that CFG is somehow singling out your boy for criticism and giving the others a walk on the same issues.

Since you want to continue making this unsubtantiated insinuation/intimation/claim and seem to be unable to mount any credible facts in support of said position, let me unsubstantiate it for you.

CFG has published 5 white papers on these Republican Presidential Candidates. I have chosen the first topic, taxes, from each paper, with the title and summary paragraph for each of the respective candidates.

You will kindly note that McCain(#3), Romney(#5),and Huckabee(#1) received less than flattering assessments. Giuliani(#4) probably the best and Thompson(#6), a little cooler reception.
Same issue,on all the candidates, some good, some bad, but nobody got a walk.

You could find out more about their reasoning (what a concept)and how they came to their conlusions by acually reading their whole position. Since you'll probably read the rest of this post the same way you read the CFG White Papers, I'll say this here and now.

Next time, stick your fingers in your mouth instead of your feet. And don't ever drive-by me with "homework" again. Put your facts up or shut-up. Thank you.

Taxes

The Club for Growth is committed to lower taxes across the board. Lower taxes on work, savings, and investments lead to greater levels of these activities, thus encouraging greater economic growth.

Presidential White Paper #1

Is Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee a Pro-Growth, Economic Conservative?

"Finally, Governor Huckabee opposed further tax cuts at a 2005 gathering of Iowa conservatives (AP 09/17/05). On January 28, 2007, Governor Huckabee refused to pledge not to raise taxes if elected President, first on Meet the Press and then at the National Review Conservative Summit. The evidence suggests that his commitment to protecting taxpayers evidenced in his early gubernatorial years may be a thing of the past."

Presidential White Paper #3

Arizona Senator John McCain's Tenuous Record as an Economic Conservative

"Despite his occasional constructive votes on tax policy, Senator McCain's vigorous opposition to and misguided rhetoric against the most pro-growth tax cuts in twenty years should make economic conservatives very worried about the tax policies that would emanate from a McCain presidential administration."

Presidential White Paper#4

Rudy Giuliani Enacted Pro-Growth Policies Despite Liberal New York Environment

"On balance, Giuliani's record of tax cuts outweighs what few indiscretions he has. It is important to remember that Gotham's economic revival was due, in large part, to Giuliani's determination to stimulate a stagnant economy by cutting taxes even in the face of fierce opposition."

Presidential White Paper#5

Romney's Record: Promise and Puzzlement

"Overall, Romney's record on tax policy is mixed. His record is marred by questionable statements and positions, and his fee hikes and "loophole" closures are troubling. However, his support for broad-based tax cuts in liberal Massachusetts together with his enthusiastic embrace of the Bush tax cuts on the campaign trail offers hope that Governor Romney's previous ambivalence on tax policy is more a function of Massachusetts politics than his core beliefs."

Presidential White Paper#6

Fred Thompson Senate Record is Generally Pro-Growth

"Given his recent doubts about McCain-Feingold, Senator Thompson will have to clarify his current position on political speech," Mr. Toomey continued, "and explain how he would deal with our expensive tort system given his philosophical opposition to comprehensive tort reform. That said, Fred Thompson's overall record contains the hallmarks of a pro-growth economic conservative."

A typical vice of American politics is the avoidance of saying anything real on real issues.

Theodore Roosevelt

"Finally, Governor Huckabee opposed further tax cuts at a 2005 gathering of Iowa conservatives (AP 09/17/05). On January 28, 2007, Governor Huckabee refused to pledge not to raise taxes if elected President, first on Meet the Press and then at the National Review Conservative Summit. The evidence suggests that his commitment to protecting taxpayers evidenced in his early gubernatorial years may be a thing of the past."

CfG slams Huckabee for not taking the ATR "no tax" pledge. But the CfG white papers are absolutely silent on the fact that neither Rudy nor Fred nor John McCain have signed the pledge either. This is obvious bias! An objective organization would judge the candidates by the same exact criteria.

And by the way, Huck has recently signed the "no tax" pledge, while Rudy, Fred and McCain still refuse to do so. I wonder why.

Thus, your Club for Growth information is both biased and outdated.

You know that you did not make the case that the Club's report on the Huckster was biased. You cited zero evidence of bias.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

Huckabee never met a government program he didn't like, never met a problem that couldn't be solved by government intervention and is a tax writer's best friend.

I wouldn't care if the guy signed a "no tax pledge" in the blood of his grandchildren, he's a thousand times worse than our current Compassionate Conservative.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

Here:

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/radicalconservative/2007/oct/26/huckabee_a...

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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

that Huckabee didn't raise taxes. I never claimed that Huckabee was perfect on his fiscal record. In fact, I docked him in my first analysis:

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/anteater/2007/aug/13/objectively_grading_t...

is that the guy will make GWB look like Ron Paul when all is said and done.

He's good on the abortion issue. He's a good speaker. He's good on 2nd Amendment issues (although I really don't think that matters a bit). That's the end of the game.

He's lousy on (partial list):
* Tax policy.
* Government expansion.
* History of "working with" Democrats.
* Judicial policy - we have no clue where he stands.
* GWOT - no clue but I'm not excited about his history with Ds.
* Healthcare - we may not end up with HillaryCare, but he'll put in place the vehicle that will get us there.
* Entitlements - don't see any change with Huckabee.
* Conservative leadership - he's a joke.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

at the same time. :>)
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

I forgot:
* Immigration. To the left of GWB and McCain.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

You have made the claim that the Club's report of the Huckster is a product of "obvious bias." In order to make the claim that someone, or some group is biased you must first establish the existence of a bias. What is the Club's bias against the Huckster? Is the club biased against low taxes, and pro-growth policies? Given the Club's record of electing pro growth Senators, and several pro-growth Congressmen that appears unlikely. Perhaps the Club does not like Social Conservative, but that contradicts the Club's record. Many of their candidates such as DeMint are both economic, and social conservatives. Again, what is the Club’s bias?

P.S. Note I am being nice I have not made one weight loss, or band snark in this thread.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

But it's evident that they are. Not judging candidates by the same metric is, by definition, bias.

Maybe, just maybe, it's you who's biased, out there in Huckabee lala land. Just a thought.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

I'm biased in favor of Huckabee. Do you agree that not judging candidates by the same metric is bias?

Huckabee is so far out to lunch on the tax and expansion of government services issue the only possible defense available is to whine about what CFG didn't say about somebody else. Bottom line, in a "conservative" forum his record is indefensable. He needs to work on convincing us that he would hold the line on taxes and the expansion of the federal government, and that's a tall order.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/004053.html

He passed the largest increase in history and then tossed in a tax cut. Whoopee.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

below. And please, Huckabee is no Ronald Reagan.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

This bit is especially funny, in a pathetic sort of way:

By the end of his ten-year tenure, Governor Huckabee was responsible for a 37% higher sales tax in Arkansas, 16% higher motor fuel taxes, and 103% higher cigarette taxes according to Americans for Tax Reform (01/07/07)

A 37% increase annualized over 10 years is close to, if not less than, the annual rate of inflation. Why does the CFG not point that out. Are they intentionally being misleading?
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

Whats he saying? That the rate of taxation must keep pace with inflation?!?!?

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

The tax pledge was simply more of an issue in Huckabee's case given his long record of tax hike after tax hike... something the other candidates you mention do not have.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

To look at it another way, maybe the pledge has no value in Huckabee's case. I, for one, would be disinclined to believe him.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

The CfG famously slams Huckabee for the nursing home bed tax. But they are absolutely silent in their evaluation of Romney: Romney supported a nursing home bed tax too.

Also, governors should be graded on a different curve than everyone else, since they have to actually run the system. Between Gov. Romney and Gov. Huckabee, I would take Gov. Huckabee. Huckabee has been a consistent supporter of Bush's tax cuts, while Romney has opposed Bush's tax cuts while governor (before his recent flip-flops).

Also, governors should be graded on a different curve than everyone else, since they have to actually run the system.

That's fair.

Huckabee has been a consistent supporter of Bush's tax cuts

But that is what he says. In that instance his behaviour is no different from a legislator or a blogger. He has no actual responsibility.

Given a choice between what Huckster says about taxes - which is not bad - and what he does on taxes - which is disastrous - I will judge him on what he does.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

While not perfect, his record is not disastrous. Huckabee was a pragmatic fiscal conservative in a very economically liberal state with 86% Democrats in the legislature. He was willing to be pragmatic in order to fix the many problems in Arkansas (Clinton and Tucker left the state in shambles). Huckabee lifted Arkansas' infrastructure out of the third-world with the taxes. Seems like Arkansans were very satisfied by the way their taxes were being used; Huckabee was elected over and over as governor, and Huckabee's approval rating was high once he left office.

And Huckabee has stood for fiscal conservatism too. He passed the first broad-based tax cut in Arkansas history. And he has stood against the Democrats in many of their tax-raising schemes:

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/radicalconservative/2007/oct/26/huckabee_a...

He is a pragmatic fiscal conservative only if 'pragmatic' means 'not a' in your dictionary.

I have no interest in whether or not people in Arkansas liked their higher taxes or if he left office with high approval. So did Clinton.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

pragmatic pro-lifer.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

He has explicitly refused to be called "effectively pro-life". At least Huckabee has stood for fiscally conservative principles.

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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

What is the Club's bias towards Huck? Look, in order to establish bias, you must show that a specific bias exists. You have yet to name, let alone prove the existence of a Club bias towards Huck.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

Truth you don't want to deal with...
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

For sure me and him. For pretty sure, general. You'll have to speak for you. :>)
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

In this thread I am totally, and completely 100% unbiased. :)

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

How about the fact that they don't accurately report that the sales tax of '96 was because of a constitutional amendment and the sales tax in '04 was the direct result of a court order. They, also, fail to take into account the increased population when figuring the rate of inflation. Also, add to this the fact that they report Huckabee's "alleged" tax hiking record and yet refuse to hold the other candidates to the same standard. Finally, even as Huckabee was in the exploration stage of a bid for the nomination, he was the very first person that they examined over all of the much bigger candidates available at the time.

If we had held Reagan to the same standard he would have failed miserably. Where would trickle down economics be?

Courts have been known to order balanced budgets and even (occasionally) increased expenditure on a particular budget line. I have never heard of a court ordering increased spending overall or a tax increase.

Huckabee found himself in a bind. He chose to get out of it by increasing expenditure and taxes. He could have made different choices.

I agree that the CfG looking at Huckabee first shows bias. It shows they were bending over backwards to be fair to him. He is the only candidate in the race with a clear record as a tax-hiker. So they wanted to see what extenuating circumstances there might have been. Seems like they were being very fair.

The reason they didn't look at the tax-hiking records of the other candidates is that they don't have such records. Not even McCain. The blackest spot on his fiscal record is that he was once against a tax increase, but I don't think he has ever voted to put taxes up.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

There actually was a case in which the court ordered increased spending in an education case.

And my words take that into account.

I said that courts have ordered increased expenditure on a specific budget line. But I know of no cases in which they have ordered that overall expenditure needs to rise or that taxes need to rise.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

"Not judging candidates by the same metric is, by definition, bias."

No, its not. It can be a legion of things. It is also a legitimate practice in the social sciences.

P.S. Am I correct in assuming that you do not have much of a background in the social sciences?

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

I know why they are biased. They don't like tax-hikers.

Not judging candidates by the same metric is, by definition, bias.

No it's not. To quote, er, you, governors should be judged by a different metric.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

I was interested in Huckabee, until I ran across this article about his role in the release of a murdering rapist who went on to kill again...

http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=154e1aad-f...

That's some troublesome stuff right there.

And this is something that obviously has troubled Mr. Huckabee if you ever see him respond to this. They criminal had raped a girl, then was physically mutilated and unable to do so again. I think it just goes to show how sick and messed up some people are. You rape, get mutilated and then murder someone later after you're shown mercy. Just sick...

On the flip side, politically speaking, I wouldn't outright take Huckabee of your list for this one occurance. I would look at his efforts to maintain law and order, decreasing crime in the state; being the state to have the fewest criminal incidents among Katrina refugees due to his proactive response in Governance. I would also look at that fact that he did uphold the rule of law when those with convicted with the death penalty met their day of consequence.

McCain? Pawlenty?

Obviously they agree on things like opposing tax cuts and freeing immigration. Big, big, difference between them on national security issues - but maybe Huckabee would want to address his obvious weakness in this area.

Pawlenty is extremely unlikely. No governor ever has another governor as running mate (1948 was the last occasion). The ticket needs at least one person with some legislative and DC-based experience.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

"Obviously they agree on things like opposing tax cuts and freeing immigration."

Maybe McCain... Huckabee put through the largest tax decrease in Arkansas's history and favors putting a fence along the border up first, then ensuring businesses follow the law and ensure proper work authorizations.

For someone in the know, I thought you'd know that?

perhaps you favour taxing it.

Your first point is rather silly. Anyone can reduce taxes from a high level. If a mugger swipes $500 from you and then gives $50 back, you don't praise him for generosity. Huckabee reduced taxes from the level to which he had raised them.

So that would still be a higher overall tax burden than when Bill Clinton was governor, no?

You may be right on immigration. It is not an issue that moves me or on which I comment. I included it because it is often held against Huckabee and McCain by many people who see them as allies in this area.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

First, Huckabee has signed the tax pledge, a pledge which Rudy has refused to sign promising no new taxes. Second, do your research before you quote an improperly researched and biased report from the Cub for Growth. What the Club for Growth does not report is that the tax increase they refer to was part of a voter referendum voted on by the people of Arkansas not passed through legislation.
Finally, let's stop spinning the illegal immigration issue. What Huckabee actually supported was for children of illegal immigrants who had graduated from high school and were actively pursuing citizenship. Get the facts straight. These children did nothing illegal by coming here any more than the slaves did when they were forced against their will to come here. They are not to be held responsible for the sins of their parents.

First, Huckabee has signed the tax pledge, a pledge which Rudy has refused to sign promising no new taxes.

I think your focus on facts would look at what people do, not what they say.

Second, do your research before you quote an improperly researched and biased report from the Cub for Growth

Why would the Club for Growth have something against Huckabee? Something in his face? Or something in his policies? Before slinging around the accusation of bias, it might be worth asking why an organisation committed to pro-growth policies would be hostile to Huckabee.

What the Club for Growth does not report is that the tax increase they refer to was part of a voter referendum voted on by the people of Arkansas not passed through legislation.

This is not remotely germane to the issue. The Club for Growth's report is not on the Arkansas legislature, it is on Huckabee. The question you should be looking at is whether Huckabee campaigned for or against the tax increase. If the tax increase was introduced against his resistance, then this would be a major point in his defence. If he campaigned hard against the tax increase, but it was adopted anyway, then maybe he should be off the hook. But you didn't say that. This would, of course, apply if it had been adopted by the legislature over his veto. That's why I say the question of the referendum vs legislature is not the point.

So, did he campaign against it? If that is your point, you didn't make it very well.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

Maybe I need to be a little more clear, so allow me to quote the source directly.
"saying outright that Huckabee raised the tax would be inaccurate. Fund refers to Huckabee’s “efforts to raise taxes to repair roads” and cites a state senator who said Huckabee urged him to “back a gas tax increase.”

What Fund omits from his column is that this tax was a referendum in 1999 put out to be voted on by the people of Arkansas, not something imposed by a state legislature and signed into law by a governor. The people of Arkansas spoke at the ballot box, and through direct democracy, imposed the tax on themselves.
If you want the bottom line on Huckabee’s tax policy, as Fund points out, Huckabee has signed the Americans For Tax Reform no new tax pledge. Rudy has not signed the pledge.

As an Arkansas journalist for nearly a decade, I had a unique opportunity to observe Huckabee’s character. I believe Mike Huckabee is a man of his word and if elected president, will not raise taxes.

Fund, quoting Arkansas Business scribe Blant Hurt, points out that Arkansas spending rose faster than the inflation rate and sales taxes were raised during Huckabee’s tenure. Both of these facts are true, but the tax increase was the result of an Arkansas Supreme Court order in the Lake View school funding lawsuit that Huckabee fought, but lost – another fact Fund failed to mention."

http://roebuckreport.blogspot.com/2007/10/funds-column-assassination-of-...

I get that it was a referendum, not a vote in the legislature. Honest. I get that. I also realise that the governor can't veto it as he could have if it had been a vote in the legislature.

But where did he stand?

If he campaigned for it, it is just the same as him asking the legislature for a tax increase and getting it.

If he fought hard against it and lost 80-20 it may say something about his leadership skills, but not about his stand on taxes.

If he stood aside and allowed the campaign to happen without his participation, this is such an utter abrogation of leadership that he is not worth considering for the White House, notwithstanding any other merits he may have.

So tell us. Where did your guy stand?

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

Huckabee as governor pushed the first comprehensive across the board tax cuts in the history of the state of Arkansas, to the tune of 90 million dollars benefitting Arkansas families, and he left office leaving an 800 million dollar surplus.

I am beginning to get the impression you don't want to answer the question.

As I understand it, there was a very major tax increase while Huckabee was governor of Arkansas. Where did he stand on this tax increase?

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

let's hold off on the attacks and name calling. If you can't see the water for the ocean it's not my problem.
As far as the bot crack goes, a little over the line.
I am the proud husband and father of six kids, I come from a very conservative upbringing and raise my family the same way. I vote my convictions, and challenging me as a bot or somehow less intelligent than you is not going to change anything other than create more heated divisions. Huckabee's record speaks for itself. Period.

You've done absolutely nothing but bot for Huckabee since you got here less than a week ago. I suppose you can deny it all you want, but it is pretty obvious why you are here from your posting history.

You might be a great guy with a wonderful family, but that doesn't mean you aren't botting for Huckabee. Some people just get so excited and fixated on their guy they can't see any faults in him. He can do no wrong. Every criticism of him is the work of some conspiracy of haters and must be defended against. There's an excuse behind everything he's ever done in his life (or at least a way of deflecting the point). That's what botting is. It's certainly not my thing, but hey, a good number of people get sucked into it. That doesn't make them bad people, it just means it is as pointless to question them as it would be to question a brick wall.

I noticed you still didn't answer his question.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

into a 'bot' discussion.

It is possible he was just about to answer my question, before you did that.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

Here is your answer, although irrelevant as I have now been demoted to the position of bot (which I assume is somewhere south of neanderthal). It was not my intention to avoid your question. I, rather, assumed that you were getting at a larger point than one particular instance of a tax increase and inferring that Huckabee is for higher taxes period. I was responding based on that impression, instead of answering the direct question. My apologies for the misinterpretation.
The answer to your question, as I'm sure you must already know, is yes, Huckabee was in favor of a tax increase in this particular instance. Whether or not he campaigned for it or not, is not clear. However, I do find instances in which he is purported to have responded favorably to the idea, and it was after all his signature on the voter referendum that was signed into law.
Based on those facts, the answer is simply that he obviously supported it. Now, we could argue with each other all day as to whether or not the tax increase was necessary, unfair, and makes Huckabee a fiscal liberal. I obviously, will disagree and argue my opinion, and I suppose that makes me a bot. I make no apology for my stands or my belief in my chosen candidate. If I am thus a bot, let it be so.

Not that I'm the definitive dictionary here, but as I've inferred from the various comments here of time, a bot (short for "robot") is a commentator whose comments seem like that are the product of a machine intelligence (or brainwashing/cult mind control).

The key characteristic is that a bot tends to repeat the same arguments (or a very limited range) over and over again in response to a variety of different comments, questions, refinements. (In brief, the same response(s) to various stimuli.)

I can accept that you genuinely misunderstood the question, since you did actually answer the question (although I did find your playing the victim somewhat annoying, or at least unnecessary; after all qlangley and others did rephrase their replies/questions multiple times, to which you appeared to be giving the same response - they understandably lost patience.)

So I think a pull-back and mutual forebearance is called for here. radicalconservative, please no more whining about how what you say is irrelevant because you've been sentenced to eternal "bothood". Rather, going forward try to make an extra effort to be responsive to changing nuances in the writings of those you are in dialog with. And I trust that others here will give you a reasonable hearing, in turn. Fair enough?

Tip: a sense of humor goes a long way...

And Rightly So!

Fair enough civil truth. It wasn't my intention to come across the way that it sounded, although it is understandable upon reading the comment I posted. I was definitely distracted chasing the children around today and trying to keep up with all the posting. I have six ages 5 and under, and they are definitely a handful. I have been trying to make sure that they have a fun weekend and am still not really trying to be the most eloquent being in the world, since they are all in bed for the night and I am off to join my wife to enjoy a movie and some quiet time. Good night everyone and God Bless.

Enjoy what one-on-one time you can snatch with your wife. Much higher priority. See you around another day.

And Rightly So!

My question was not intended as rhetorical, so I am glad you have answered it. The answer is the one I had suspected, but I was not sure.

Huckabee has been widely criticised for his record on taxes, and no-one that I have seen has previously claimed this criticism is unfair - as they presumably would have if he had opposed the tax increases. But you added something new. You said the criticism was unfair because the increases were adopted by referendum. That implied to me that you were saying they were adopted over his head. But since you did not actually say so, I wanted clarification.

The clarification leaves me a little puzzled as to what your point was meant to be. Merely that these tax increases were okay because they were popular? I don't find that persuasive. There are many policies which are popular which I still consider wrong in principle. A president should be a leader, not a reader of polls.

Popular in Arksansas or not, these were Huckabee's tax increases. Labelling him a tax-hiker is not only fair, it is an accurate description of his record.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

The fact that he supported a gas tax increase (according to club for growth 3 cents) does not necessarily make him a tax hiking fiscal liberal. This and the couple of other tax increases coupled with the fact that he pushed through the largest tax cut in the state's history, to the tune of 90 million dollars, indicates to me that he is actually just the oppposite. We all know that taxes are necessary, just not the excessive taxation that burdens the nation due to liberal agendas aimed at enlarging the size of government and expanding welfare roles. The gas tax, in particular was aimed at solving road conditions which were terrible and are the responsibility of state and local government.

According to CFG the voter approved referendum was about the sale of bonds, not on the fuel tax increases. And I don't see a 3 cent figure anywhere. Of this doesn't even addresses the sales tax (several times), income tax, and cigarette tax hikes he supported.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

there were no other programs that could be killed or delayed to "pay" for the road problems?

The point here is that I feel the same way about tax increases and expansion of government services as I do about abortion "No".

The difference is that there are really limited things a POTUS can do with respect to abortion. There's a bunch he can do about revenue and program expansion and the idea that he would support any program expansion and "pay" for it by making government more efficient is a bad joke (goes for Romney too).
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

And the tax cut you keep bragging about was much smaller than his tax hikes. What kind of guy brags about cutting your taxes by $25 after he increased them by $200? The fact that he increased spending more than 65% and still ended up with a surplus pretty much says everything you need to know about Huckabee and taxes.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

he supported a tax increase in several areas, including the gas tax, the cigarette tax (which I disagree with), and a few others. I am simply pointing out that there are inaccuracies in calling Huckabee a fiscal liberal based solely on the tax increases he is quoted as having supported or "allowed" to pass, as he is responsible for the "Largest" tax cut in the history of the state of Arkansas. Even in the Club for Growth's "White Paper #1," they stop short of claiming that Huckabee is a tax hike candidate, but rather claim that based on the "mixed bag" of policies and his refusal to commit to the pledge, which he has since, that one must wonder what direction Huckabee will follow with regard to taxes.

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2007/01/a_report_on_mike_huckabees_fis.php

I, also, point out that the tax increase for education was the result of an Arkansas Supreme Court decision and the mandated, resulting increase in spending was a large portion of the spending figures. Link for source listed below.
http://roebuckreport.blogspot.com/2007/10/funds-column-assassination-of-...

it would be a fairly minor point against him.

But, as a matter of principle, supporting tax increases does put you on the wrong side of this question. You can argue away about how far one has to be on the wrong side of this line to be a 'liberal' if you like. I consider that a pointless argument.

Huckabee's record is one of increasing taxes. Increasing them from the levels he inherited from Clinton and Tucker. Spin it any way you want, this is a bad record, and not a recommendation for his presidential campaign.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

"poke for itself" we wouldn't be having the discussion. Obviously it says different things to many of us than it does to you. Frankly, based on his record in AR, I wouuldn't walk acros the street to spit on the guy. He's worse than Ron Paul because he'll actually try to work with the Ds to accomplish something. For the children.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

"Huckabee's record speaks for itself. Period."

If that were truly the case then you would have no trouble answering qlangley's question.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

It did not reflect well on his candidate.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

the War on Terror bogus and says maybe we should convert to Islam on his own blog. Right.

and on his record of favoring the expansion of government is akin to listening to a guy who's been married and divorced five times appealing to a potential new bride: "Honest hon, I've learned my lesson. I'll never commit adultry again!"

Were you attacking Huckabee or Rudy?

I don't know if Huckabee is a patent liar or just an opportunist who thinks we're dumb enough to give him a pass on every issue because he's prolife, but those are the options.

Come on use something with a little more substance.

substance so it would compare well with the arguments made by Hucks supporters to the effect that we should ignore everything he's ever done and just pay attention to what he now says.

Four years of Huckabee will be the absolute end of conservatism in the US.

No thank you very much.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

sense.

why you'd feel that way.

Huckabee is a one trick pony (as is Tancredo) who has a record as an elected official that is as far from the base as one can get so now he's playing "hide the Governor". And his supporters are in full "hide" mode as well.

He's THE prolife candidate left in the field. He's good on 2nd A issues (though I really think that's a major afterthought for most of his supporters).

His RECORD on fiscal issues, on immigration, on the role of government in general and on his willingness to "work with" Democrats absolutely S.U.C.K.S. He has no record on matters relating to the war, so we pretty much get to draw whatever conclusion we want.

Elect Huckabee and four years from now we'll be scratching ourselves and muttering "...but I thought he was a conservative..."

And by the way, we don't even have a clue about his nomination standard for the judicuary, so all this feel-good stuff about how prolife he is could easily go up in smoke with a HM moment or a new Souter. After all, he might want to work with the Senate for "consensus" nominees. Wouldn't want to not be bipartisan and all that.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

and applies to pretty much all of the candidates, as to what they will actually do when elected. However, based on track records, I still choose Huckabee anyday hands down. If it's Rudy, I go third party or sit this one out. Sorry, but I have done my research, and my conscience will allow nothing else.

P.S. I do appreciate all of the good debate you have offered here as it has forced me to definately think about what I believe and to research my own beliefs about my chosen candidate. Thanks, and I hope that the nominee is someone we both can support.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/08/politics/main548369.shtml

Not a difficult choice for me.

Between this post and the one following, you should look up "credibility".
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

"Gov. Huckabee clearly possesses the courage to act upon his convictions," said Grover Norquist, ATR president. "I commend Gov. Huckabee for the choice he has given the taxpayers of Arkansas: Contribute additional income to the Tax Me More Fund or don't.

"In the meantime, the government will cut spending. State government officials across the nation should take note of Gov. Huckabee's example of how to handle a spending shortfall."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/22/182422.shtml

Sounds like Huck was the one who thought up of this brilliant idea.

You must be talking about Fred, as Fred has voted 1) for amnesty 2) for guest worker program 3) for reducing fines against employers of undocumented workers.

Roy Beck of Numbers USA has praised Huckabee recently for taking a firmer approach.

and four years from now we'll be scratching ourselves and muttering "...but I thought he was a conservative..."

As opposed to electing Mitt, Rudy or McCain? They each have their own liberal skeletons in the closet as well. It is much more of a stretch to paint Huckabee a liberal than the three mentioned above. Romney ran to the left of Ted Kennedy in '94 for crying out loud.

He is a two trick pony.  He is using the FairTax as a major campaign issue .  Many of the current candidates have said that they will sign the FairTax into law as President, but Huck is the most prominent candidate to actively campaign on the issue. In consequence, the FairTax campaign has urged its activists (there are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of FairTax activists) to campaign for Huck. These FairTax activists have given Huck a pop in the polls, blogs, etc., arenas, but their support is shallow (they are not donating money), conditional, and easy to steal (other candidates that jump on the FairTax bandwagon will steal their support from Huck).

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

I was not aware of his repentance for his pro-tax positions. I thought his campaign was just libeling anyone that points out his economic record.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

However, in a general election in a country which will not soon forget the image of a collapsed bridge in Minnesota, a candidate who nudged up gas taxes to vastly improve his state's transportation infrastructure will be seen as wise, not wasteful.

I can tune into Air America if I want to hear the I-35W collapse used for political purposes like this.

16% higher motor fuel tax... Isn't that the one that was one-eighth of a cent per gallon?

I'm guessing math isn't your strong suit. A 16% hike in the gas tax being 1/8th of a cent per gallon? I don't think so.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

the voters through a referendum.

So, he worked for the referendum to pass.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

Please check your facts a little deeper than the likes of that junk "Club for Growth" delivers.

The referendum was voted into play by 80% of the people of Arkansas because the interstates really really really SUCKED! By far, they were some of the worst interstates in the country. I know because I used to hall haz mats thru there.

Try I-30 South from Little Rock in 1998. Hopefully they raised enough money to fix that 3rd world nation mess.

I suppose you must think he should have told the people he served to forget about what they were demanding because he might want to run for president some day.

Huckabee did very well with the mess inwhich he had to work.

Jim Tomasik

If he couldn't do what was right in Arkansas, then I have no reason to think he'll do what's right when faced with the national press, and quite possibly an entirely Democrat-controlled Congress.

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Let's nominate the Nash Equilibrium for President.

A proven inability to stand up to lightweight State politicians and fuzzy, mediocre small state media is is supposed to inspire some sort of confidence?

It's like pulling a Class B pitcher with an 80mph fast ball up to the majors as a World Series starter.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

Huckabee is utterly unacceptable.

Gee! He's GWB who can communicate. Yeech.

Just what we need. More expansion of government, more entitlements, a bigger government that REALLY cares about the poor. You bet.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

I think Huckabee would be better at taking his case to the American people.

Better than Bush? A wooden spoon would be better than Bush. Let's hold the next president to a higher standard.

Drink Good Coffee. You can sleep when you're dead.

NewTone™ II.

If there's one thing that is attractive behind Giuliani (and it's the only thing, as far as I'm concerned), it would be the end of the nicey-nicey.

I used to be such a sweet, sweet thing
'Til they got a hold of me.
I opened doors for little old ladies,
I helped the blind to see.
I got no friends 'cause they read the papers.
They can't be seen with me and I'm gettin' real shot down
And I'm feeling mean.

No more Mister Nice Guy,
No more Mister Clean,
No more Mister Nice Guy,
They say he's sick, he's obscene.

I got no friends 'cause they read the papers.
They can't be seen with me and I'm gettin' real shot down
And I'm feeling mean.

No more Mister Nice Guy,
No more Mister Clean,
No more Mister Nice Guy,
They say he's sick, he's obscene.

My dog bit me on the leg today.
My cat clawed my eyes.
Ma's been thrown out of the social circle,
And dad has to hide.
I went to church incognito.
When everybody rose, the Reverend Smith,
He recognized me,
And punched me in the nose.
No more Mister Nice Guy,
No more Mister Clean,
No more Mister Nice Guy,
They say he's sick, he's obscene.

Jindal/Palin '16

then all hope is irrevocably lost.

Then it was lost 20 years ago, back when Ted Kennedy got up and viciously attacked Robert Bork.

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Let's nominate the Nash Equilibrium for President.

not completely dead, obviously. Otherwise, there would not be people on here saying that they are rooting for Rudy to bring an end to "nicey-nicey."

being "civil" and kissing the tush of the Dems at every turn. GWB has done plenty of the latter, and this is where he needs to toughen up...and that doesn't necessarily mean being uncivil. But he's a lame duck anyway, so his behavior is irrelevant now.

Like I said, a tough stand with the Left is what Giuliani has going for him. But I won't vote for him for other reasons that are not germane to this thread. I prefer Thompson, and I believe he can/will also take a much firmer stand than the King of the NewTone™.

"A divided country can't fight the war on terror..." Tell ya what Sus. Get off your duff and replace the leaders of your party. THEY are the problem. As a matter of fact, they are the enemy, domestic version. Just exactly what difference do you think replacing GWB with GWBII is going make to Harry & Nancy?

And as far as finding someone to "work" with your party, NO THANK YOU. Elect some Democrats who will agree to privatize all entitlements, shut down the DoEd and a dozen other agencies and forever keep their filthy hands off health care (including killing the SCHIP program) and we'll work with you.

And as for the fact that you don't like like the way Rudy treated his wife so you're willing to let a complete mush try to run the WoT, you're the poster child for why women shouldn't vote.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

Every other post I see by MBecker is a personal attack.

That is a clear violation of the posting rules.

Is that the message we're supposed to take away from this post?

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling

The message is that YOUR rules clearly state that personal attacks are not allowed.

Am I wrong on that?

Let me know when you think you've got the part I'm asking you to look for.

------------
The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.

the section that states "The proprietors of this site are the sole and final judges and enforcers of this policy."

My question was why do the mods allow the personal attacks by MBecker to continue? I'm not talking about flaming the RP morons, or the obvious Moby posters.

I'm referring to comments such as the last line of his post to Susannah...."poster child of why women shouldn't vote."

I now see that Thomas seems to agree on this.

I enjoy the site very much and look forward to contributing my viewpoints in the future. You can be assured that I won't be indulging in any personal attacks against anyone for any reason.

If I'm out of line by asking why these attacks are overlooked than I apologize and will move on accordingly.

Respectfully,
Sy

of certain moderators in compromising positions. Rumor has it, sheep are involved!

Don't fight city hall!

=========
About the Author

Lord Vegas is a true American. some would call him a Mutt, but he prefers the term mixed breed. He respects Franz and tolerates becker.

And Rightly So!

so why are you asking us?

There's a link up top to a CONTACT FORM. Ask them directly.

--------------------------------------
I'm not voting for Ron Paul because it's not expressly prescribed in the Constitution.
-- Mark Hemingway, The Corner (NRO)

I just got done telling someone else to tone it back. Same has to go for you.

-----------
We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!

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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

... but man, you gotta chill sometimes.

You could have set Susannah aright just as firmly with the mbecker-meter at -1. I humbly suggest you henceforth reserve the white hot fury levels for Ronulans, mobies and Kossacks.

after he read the comment so I'm typing with one hand now.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

...ever since writing that McCain diary.

It's such a fine line between stupid and clever. - David St. Hubbins

..will bring a "new tone" and be a "uniter not a divider"? And you base this on his record as governor of his state?

Wake up and pay attention to this, Susannah: That is exactly what a Republican candidate (and inauguree) named George W. Bush brought to the table in 2000.

Bush promised a new tone, and has turned the other cheek and tried to reach across the aisle at every opportunity (even allowing Ted Kennedy to write important pieces of legislation, like NCLB). Bush's track record as governor of Texas was as a uniter that could work with Democrats as effectively as he could Republicans.

What people need to realize is that, when Bush brought his new tone, Democrats took his promises to "unite, not divide" not as a promise -- but as a challenge.

What in the world makes you think that Huckabee will be any better, I'd like to know.

Well, if he is true to his record and pushes tax hikes though Congress instead of tax cuts, that might reduce the tension with the Democrats. And of course we got the carbon caps... another great tension reducer. We can unite with the Democrats if we are only willing to adopt their agenda.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

I would agree that Huckabee might well be able to craft a message in the general election that would attract more swing voters (esp. swing women) than some of the other Republican candidates, such as Rudy.

However, that alone is not a sufficient reason for Republican voters to select Huckabee in the primaries. The same goes for those who make electability arguments for Rudy, Fred, etc.

"Electibility" is only one of many factors that a voter has to consider in their selections process - and it is one of the most amorphous because it it largely based on intangibles and subjective factors that can change depending on the opponents.

What is much more subject to testing are the candidate positions on issues and their underlying philosophy of governance, and any party's nominee has to convince the voters in his party that he best represents the ideals and goals of that party. After all, attracting some swing voters doesn't compensate for losing too many from your own party, which is something that the primary process is designed to try to prevent.

In other words, Mr. Huckabee is going to have to convince enough Republican voters that his set of positions represents their views sufficiently to merit nomination. (Same for Rudy, Mitt, Fred, John, and the others.) And with different candidates and their supporters fighting it out, this process gets rough and tumble.

But as the old saying goes: politics is like sausage making; you don't want to watch to closely how it is made.

So please continue to advocate for your preferred candidate as you see fit, but realize that others have strong views too and may take serious exception to your advocacy, but that's just an indication that people are taking the process seriously - and most of the time, don't take it too personally. I do think that we have fair-minded regulars here at RedState who will step up if someone crosses the line between fair and foul.

And Rightly So!

And you honestly think the reason the roads were so bad was because taxes were too low? Give me a break. The roads stunk because the government was corrupt. Feeding the beast isn't the answer.

I may be out of date, but the license for a car used to be something like $30 in the Pelican state. I'm not sure what the taxes were on gasoline, too long ago.

You can't have decent roads without the dollars to build them. I had this argument with my late father, a Democrat for a long time. He agreed but it was a "right" for him to have cheap plates....go figure.

______________________________________
Proud member of the Barry Goldwater wing of the party !

it's still something like $35-40. Maybe the problem with New Orleans wasn't so much the tax rate as the failure of those dollars to make it all the way to the road maintenance department.

lesterblog.blogspot.com

You don't have to gouge people on registration to pay for roads. States have a lot of ways to confiscate your money.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

I think my last set of plates, actually a sticker was over $200, and of course I pay at the pump, and of course the fund that all that money is going into gets raided.

But Louisiana used to have the worst roads in the nation and refused to raise taxes to pay for improvements. Taxes are not a dirty word, just taxes and then spending those taxes on stupid stuff is.

______________________________________
Proud member of the Barry Goldwater wing of the party !

"Before I started medical school, I lived in New Orleans in the late 1990's to 2001. The roads were soooo bad there that I would spend between $500-$1000 per year in car maintenance due to the crummy roads. Between you and me, I would have much rather have paid a few cents more per gallon for gas. :-)"

Greetings my leftist friend. I have something to tell you. Once upon a time I lived in PA, which is usually in the running (some years PA wins) for worst roads in the union as voted by truck drivers. Now PA's roads are not in horrible condition, due to lack of spending upon them, or low taxes. PA's roads are an insult to motorists because PENNDOT is staffed by one of the most corrupt, incompetent, and motley collections of union, and patronage workers that one can imagine.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Let's nominate the Nash Equilibrium for President.

We have five signifiant candidates right now. You can't say they're all doing *well*.

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Let's nominate the Nash Equilibrium for President.

off leash. I got one of them pinned down and drpooed Franz' leash in the process. I saw the second one coming in for The Prince but I couldn't see him. All of a sudden I hear "grrrrrrrrr" and see a white flash. Franz jumps the attacking Dobie, lands in the middle of his face and bites the living daylights out of both of his ears. Last seen was a yelping 90# Doberman headed south as fast as he could run with 7# of snarling, killer Maltese fast on his heels.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.