The Shunning of Shunning.

By Socrates Posted in Comments (48) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

Repeat after me: We must be on offense, or we lose.

I should not have to write this. Why is this my job? I signed up to do thought pieces, big picture stuff about the role of communications technology in forming Man's ability to wage war, and other irrelevancies. That's all worth what you pay me. It's 2:30 AM, and I have to write this. So with all of that you can be assured that this is not my best work.

But this ... this ... kerfuffle over Ann Coulter (again). Haven't we learned? We must be on offense, or we lose.

Coulter stays on offense. Some would say she stays offensive, but many more pretend to be offended either A) for political advantage or B) for political advantage. That is, Democrats largely pretend to be offended by Coulter's remarks because they want to use it as a whip to keep Republicans on the run. Many of those so attacked pretend to be offended so they can use that pretense as a shield against the whip.

But guess what? We must be on offense, or we lose.

Coulter did not imply that Edwards was gay. But suppose she had. What harm is that?

Well, you say, it wasn't what she said, it was how and where she said it. She dared to use a particular word. She moved her mouth in a way that is simply not allowed for her to do. She knew that to move her mouth in that way would bring forth denunciation, calls for her to attend rehab, even the dreaded shunning.

She spoiled our big show at CPAC, you say. No, she didn't, or if she did, it wasn't much of a show.

Defending her is so patently not my job because I don't even care for Ann Coulter's work. She's a clever gal, but she uses her firepower as a loose canon. She mixes argument with humor, so that when I want to laugh, it suddenly stops being funny, and when I want to agree, she sucker punches her own logic. At least, that was the way of the one book, and also her columns.

But defend her I will, because we have some of the same goals. Just as I defend gay Republicans, whose personal habits I abhor. Just as I defend the President, in his role as Commander-in-Chief, even though I don't like some of his policies. Just as I will defend John McCain someday, even though I hypocritically attack him as a rule.

I am not just defending a teammate with enormous talent who sometimes makes a legal play the umpire doesn't like. I am filled with disappointment for the state in which we find ourselves, that this word or that word is acceptable or not depending on who uses it, and how. And that we accept the frame of the debate from the lefty MSM, instead of taking it to them.

Political Correctness is a pernicious evil, far more evil that making an offensive joke. Coulter is not in trouble because she committed a crime, she is in trouble because she used a bad word and described the penalty for using it.

And wanting a shield against the PC whip we accept the frame. The minute we do that, the battle is lost. We're on defense. And the shield is useless, because our backs are to the whip as we flee from it.

And we must be on offense, or we lose.

Just as I defend gay Republicans, whose personal habits I abhor. Just as I defend the President, in his role as Commander-in-Chief, even though I don't like some of his policies.

... my head hurts

their views when they are right, despite their personal unpopularity.

--


See the Academy.

As of now, I take your meaning to imply that you do not shun groups or individuals outright when your interests are in common.

I'm not sure how that ties in to your larger 'take the offensive' argument.

They invented it, own the board and change the rules at their whim. The only way we win is by kicking over the board and saying game over. Ann does that every time she speaks and the least we can do is show our support.

______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

And yet most people including myself expect decency from conservatives. I also welcome groups to our side that would be offended by various words that I won’t specify because they would be censored. There is a difference between being not PC and having a total disrespect for others.

Would we be defending Ann C. if she used a derogatory term in reference to blacks that is outdated? How bout one that is derogatory to Christians?

Now I agree with most people’s interpretation of her intentions but that doesn't change the fact that she purposely said it the way she did to evoke a reaction. In the end it seems that people who profane do it for the reaction.

Offence is all well and good but a blind lunge will likely get your arm cut off.

A Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever. -John Adams

...Joliphant, not you, told me the other day, on the subject of Ann Coulter that the along with fagg*t, the words k*ke and n*igger were also "acceptable in some circumstances".

Had to admit, I was suprised.

As you frequently did in that thread.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

...is that your position today.

I used them EXACTLY ONCE, after you told me that "f[****]t" was acceptable, when I asked you if the same was true for n*gger and k*ke.

You're response was that you found them "acceptable, under some circumstances".

Would you like to retract that position now, cause I'll give you the chance?

But if I say its acceptable to use them my position is unacceptable. NB, once is one more time than I used them.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

(And for the record the redacting was done later)

ME:

Lots of words are acceptible, f****t is not.
Right?
Or is f****t, in your mind, an acceptible word?
And you can keep arguing the macaca thing, but it took down George Allen insomuchas LOTS of people who voted for him last time did not buy his explination of what he said.
He had a lead BEFORE the comment and it started eroding the moment he said it.
But macaca aside, I'll go back to the real question:
Do you believe the word f****t is acceptible?

YOU:
Yes I do find it acceptable. What I find unacceptable is small groups being able to impinge upon everyones freedom of speech. And just who on this earth do you think you are to tell anyone what is or is not acceptable ?

ME:
K**e also acceptible? And n****r? Just checking here.

YOU:
Under the right circumstances absolutely.

ME:
Cool. Then we know where we stand.

Look, you find it acceptable.

You said so.

Please, don't pull the "I was taken out of context"... "it doesn't mean what you said it means"... "I was just kidding" obfuscation.

Wubbies World - The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you actually aim for it!

Who needs to ? And why do you insist on digging your own grave ?

Yes I do find it acceptable, and by your actions so do you at least for yourself.

P.S. BTW thats 3 times for one and once for the other 2. Innumeracy is unacceptable
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

As I said so.

As I will do again and again.

Those words, the USING of those words, is unaaceptable.

The TYPING of those words is irrelevant (though I now understand it to be against the rules of this site and will abide) as not in context, not being used for the purpose of defaming others, the words are just letters in a string.

I'll drop it from here out, but at least it's clear on where we stand.

You feel its ok for yourself to dictate how others speak. You also feel its ok for you to break the rules you set for others.

I do not.

Its very obvious though that subtlety of this position is wasted on you.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

...a "pretzel" might be considered a position.

Whatever lets you sleep at night, though.

My position has been from the start that even hateful speech is protected.

Whats yours ? Ann can't use the words to make a point but you can. I am a bigot because I think the words are acceptable but refuse to use them, while you find them unacceptable but use them constantly ?

Your last post is little more than name calling which is exactly what you are asserting is unacceptable.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Others will decide the merit of them.

Did you say that with REVERB ?

Its hard to detect self importance over the web.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

STOP USING PROFANITY!

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

It takes two to tango after all. All I can say is, I had no Idea he would repost the garbage.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Folks, if nothing else - nothing else - think about this from a technical standpoint. One swear word in a comments section will probably not trigger commercial web blocking services. Umpteen thousand, on one page? Possibly a different story. How many of you read this site at work? How many of you would like to keep doing that? How many of you don't have to worry about formal blockers - but do have to worry about the boss seeing what you're looking at on your lunch break?

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

Starting in June, sleep becomes a reward for successfully appeasing my son.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

I made the team three times...sure glad that's over now! Now it is my daughters time to make the team!

Humble Apology.

Too early, and too much in general.

I stand corrected on word choice.

Wubbies World - The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you actually aim for it!

I guess the thing that bothers me most about this whole mess, is that when Ann Coulter uses the word "f****t" all hell breaks lose with denunciations and condemnation.

However, if a prominent Democrat uses the "N" word in an interview (read: Senator Byrd), the "I was just tired" excuse is excepted, and the whole thing is blown off. Or, if some other transgression (insert your choice from a long list) is committed by a Democrat, it is given a pass.

I am not about to tell someone how to react in this matter.

However, I am sick and tired of the double standards and hypocrisy of the media and the left!!!!!

I am also sick and tired of the circular firing squad the Republicans are engaged in to placate the left and the media too!!!!

If you want to call me a bad person for feeling that way, that is fine. That won't change my opinion on this simple principle.

Wubbies World - The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you actually aim for it!

because Coulter addressed an important gathering of conservative constituents who by their far from center poltical alignment are suspect by many to be hypocrites and bigots.

Try finding this story on washingtonpost.com.

What if Coulter next calls Obama a [racial epithet not starting with "n"]? Is that just combating political correctness? Would we be engaged in a "circular firing squad" if some of us objected?

And DO NOT DARE SAY that she wouldn't say something like that, because she is a bomb thrower and as said things just as bad in the past. Lie down with dogs, get fleas.

So you are sick of some things? Yeah, well I am sick of people who call themselves conservatives, who say that morals and principles are important, who idolize really nice people like President Reagan. But then who laugh when some mean, shrill woman gets off a stupid ad hominen attack.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

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Kyle, I know you're trying to make a point. Even so, there are words I don't want to see on this site. Thanks. -blackhedd

She did exactly the same thing we're doing here. She used the word in talking about whether or not it was allowed.

"Bad names (in general) will get me in trouble. So the kind of things I would have to say about Edwards to describe him would really get me in trouble."

But they don't play well.

It doesn't matter what she was trying to say. She intentionally chose to use hostile rhetoric when it was completely unnecessary.

She could have just as easily have avoided the use of the word but that wouldn't got her coverage on CNN.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Let's just stick to facts, and not play "what if's". It seems like everyone is playing the "what if" game. What if Vice President Cheney was assassinated by the bomber in Afghanistan? What if I was never born and was not posting here? I am not interested in "what if's"

Please understand that no where in my post did I say I approved or condoned what was said by Ann Coulter. I did specifically state I was not about to try and tell others what to think about it. Just for the record, I about wanted to throw up when I heard what was said, because I knew it was red meat for the left.

I think that DAHmich made a great point in his posting on the very idea of the circular firing squads. You can read about here in his post.

I happen to agree with the posting. However, he specifically addressed political candidates, but I think it goes to debate in general. I believe in the idea of "a public debate of ideas, and may the best idea win". I am not into scorched earth, destruction debate. That being said, in the case of Ann Coulter's speech, I think the axiom of smear politics you will normally see a candidate engage in, is to ignore and not acknowledge this kind of stuff. They will not give it anymore life than it already has achieved. Talking about it only keeps it alive, and I will definitely not give it any life that it does not deserve. That is why I will not play "what if".

The only way you are going to stop a person from making these kinds of verbal assaults, is to marginalize them and stop having them around. I think it is called the "cold shoulder". When they realize what they are doing is not wanted, and conversely, they are not wanted, they will stop. However, having Republicans standing around shooting at each other is only entertainment for the left, and I for one will not be party to it.

Wubbies World - The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you actually aim for it!

So sick of people saying this. It's only an ad hominem if it is presented as a refutation.

"You can't be correct because you are ugly."
That's an ad hominem fallacy.

"You are ugly."
That's called an insult.

Anyone that uses ad hominem incorrectly is ugly.

absentee

That comment was supposed to be in reply to kyle8.

absentee

Coulter did not imply that Edwards was gay. But suppose she had. What harm is that?

Well from a strictly political view when Coulter says things like that and Conservatives choose to defend her, that allows the other side to paint all Conservatives as bigots.

As a general rule if you choose to be a flamethrower you should accept that you will be on your own.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Geez, I was TRULY basking in the warmth and praise of Conservatives by the Left, before Ann Coulter's speech. And for that matter, before she was old enough for a training bra.

For years and years and years, Lefties, Liberals, and Socialists have always adorned us with love and admiration. Never ever, ever, ever calling us bigots or homophobes, or greedy war-mongers. And Lord, I don't recall ever being called a racist ... until, you know, SHE came along.

Now we are doomed. (yawn)

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FP Watergil

I highly recommend a scorched earth policy for the Republicans. That will surely get you a lot of votes.

Perhaps you should use 4 letter pejoratives on a daily basis. Since everyone is so gosh darn mean to you, you might as well enjoy the ride.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

I swear, back in the good old days they knew their place. Now look at 'em. Always back-talkin' and sassin' their betters. Boy, there oughta' be a law. If we don't put 'em back in their place, the world is gonna burn. You just mark my word.
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FP Watergil

You poor victims have it just as hard as blacks in America.

How you are able to persevere is a testament to your willingness to overcome the challenges presented to you, the downtrodden.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

Because you crave it so much. In your words, for example:

"get you a lot of votes"
"scorched earth policy"
"4 letter pejoratives"
"victims"
"blacks in America"
"downtrodden"

... had nothing at all to do with my point. Not even close. These are your thoughts and words. Your attempts ... to what?

Let me summarize my point for you. There is nothing that Ann Coulter could do or say, or not do and not say, that would change how Liberals, Lefties, Progressives, Democrats, and Socialists view us Conservatives, Righties, and Republicans.

Have at it. You can't resist.

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FP Watergil

For you to suggest that you weren't drawing an association between how blacks were treated in America and how Republicans are being treated is utterly disingenuous. You can't possibly be serious.

It isn't about what the "Liberals, Lefties, Progressives, Democrats, and Socialists" think. Most of them don't like you and never will. It's about what the soccer moms and BBQ dads think about you. And it's about how those aforementioned Liberals et al. will use these types of comments to portray the Right as being hostile to gays.

You want to defend it, go for it. But don't cry foul when those who oppose you use your defense for their own purpose.

Oh, and spare me the passive aggressive "I'll let you have the last word because you soooo need to". If you really wanted me to have the last word you would have, you know, NOT RESPONDED. Instead you tried the tired attempt at trying to get the last word in by suggesting that I would be petty for even responding.

Maybe you can tell us more about the plight of being a Republican in America. It is truly a hard life you live.

There are those who look at things the way they are, and ask why ... I dream of things that never were and ask why not. - Robert Kennedy

"Have at it. You can't resist."

BINGO

just because the democrats lay big flaming piles of dog poo in our yard, we should go stepping in it.

as long as you're moving the ball toward the correct end-zone.

What was the purpose of Ann's statement? Did what she say serve that purpose? And if so, does that purpose have anything to do with furthering conservatism?

Fighting political correctness is a good thing, in my opinion. It can be done effectively. I don't think Coulter did it effectively.

...you've just made the same argument that the nutroots made for defending Amanda Marcotte. The exact same argument. It could have been copied and pasted.

Look, I don't disagree with you that we have to stay on the offense. The problem is that we disagree over whether or not Ann Coulter's behavior at CPAC was actually staying on the offense. I think what she said and did was actually detrimental, and now it has put us on the defensive. She's nothing but trouble for the conservative movement. All she cares about are her book sales.

Regards,
Nate Nelson
Reality Mugged Me

What argument are you saying that I (?) made that Marcotte and friends made?

--


See the Academy

Daily Kos and the other nutroots argued that Amanda Marcotte should not be fired despite her offensive language because liberals needed to be on the offense, not the defense. It was time for liberals to stop apologizing for saying bad things about the evil, evil religious people. That, in a nutshell, was the whole argument for not firing Amanda Marcotte, an argument that Edwards bought - to his great detriment, believe me.

I think it's the same situation here with Ann Coulter. What Edwards didn't understand then and what I think you're not understanding now is that Amanda Marcotte wasn't part of their offensive line, and Ann Coulter isn't part of our offensive line. She's so out there that she is now actually part of their offensive line, just as Amanda Marcotte actually became part of our offensive line insofar as she gave us some serious ammunition to use against them. I'm all about being on the offense, but I think we need to recognize which players are on what team. Yes, Ann Coulter is technically a conservative; but the stuff she spews on a regular basis hurts us and helps them, so is she really playing for our team? I don't think so.

Regards,
Nate Nelson
Reality Mugged Me

 
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