They're winding up FISA now in the Senate.

Took 'em long enough.

By Moe Lane Posted in | | | Comments (136) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

[UPDATE and bump]: Final vote is 69 Ayes, 28 Nays. A look at the final apostate list in a moment, but I'd just like to note something. There were two Senators who were serious Democratic Presidential candidates, and they both voted on FISA. One of them voted against telecom immunity - a matter of extreme importance to the netroots - all the way down the line (and despite the fact that Democrats in Congress have assessed the public mood, and have clearly decided that the bill must be passed). The other voted against it... except for the final vote, which is the only one that the population will actually care about. In other words, we have a case of actual integrity versus equivocation.

“The funny part is that the netroots went with the equivocator. Barack Obama brazenly lied to them, and they support him anyway.”

The funny part is that the netroots went with the equivocator. Barack Obama brazenly lied to them about his intent to filibuster FISA, and they support him anyway. And now they have to go give him some more money, so that he can lie to them some more. Funny, I don't recall Hillary Clinton being nearly as bad in that regard this election cycle.

Have a nice day.

-------

Senator Bond is finishing up his commentary, and we'll be seeing the start of the process of watching the amendments go down in flames any minute now. (Ooh, he just kicked the netroots!)

While we're all waiting for the inevitable, check out Jake Tapper's piece on the subject. Especially the bits about Obama's flip-flops on FISA.

[UPDATE]: Below is the approved list of Netroots-Acceptable Democratic Ideological Purity. To stay on it, all the Democratic Senators have to do is vote Aye on all three amendments, and Nay on the vote itself. Shouldn't be too hard, right?

Akaka Baucus Bayh Biden Bingaman Boxer Brown Byrd Cantwell Cardin Carper Casey Clinton Conrad Dodd Dorgan Durbin Feingold Feinstein Harkin Inouye Johnson Kennedy* Kerry Klobuchar Kohl Landrieu Lautenberg Leahy Levin Lieberman Lincoln McCaskill Menendez Mikulski Murray Nelson Nelson Obama Pryor Reed Reid Rockefeller Salazar Sanders Schumer Stabenow Tester Webb Whitehouse Wyden

*I think that he may not be present. Which would explain why McCain's not there, either.

On Dodd/Feingold: 32 Ayes, 66 Nays. Embarrassingly bad, that.
On Specter: 37 Ayes, 61 Nays. Not quite as bad. Not quite.
On Bingaman: 42 Ayes, 56 Nays. I guess that I got this wrong: the pro-FISA people clearly didn't need much in the way of cover at all.

...And Reid is recessing, in order to let the GOP go have its (delayed by the Helms funeral) lunch. Isn't he just the best, most biddable Democratic Senate Majority Leader that the GOP could wish for?

[UPDATE] Well, we're back, and I believe that this is the cloture vote (yup, it is). Bit garbled, but I heard 26 Nays; it clearly passed. Final vote - finally, the freaking final vote - coming up next.


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They're winding up FISA now in the Senate. 136 Comments (0 topical, 136 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »

I'd love to watch this stuff live on CSPAN. [I know they stream online, but that has been very unreliable with my internet connection.]



McCain for POTUS so the left can't ruin SCOTUS.

Cant see CSPAN right now, would you be updating this post with the vote counts for the other amendments and the vote also?

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Is it because I is black? - Ali G

While the guy currently talking has the same dearth of intellectual avoirdupois his positions sure are different.

Gee, I guess the netroots now realize what the Polish felt like at Potsdam.

"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report

schadenfreude
"malicious joy in the misfortunes of others," 1922, from Ger., lit. "damage-joy," from schaden "damage, harm, injury" (see scathe) + freude, from O.H.G. frewida "joy," from fro "happy," lit. "hopping for joy," from P.Gmc. *frawa- (see frolic).

"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report

When did people on the right decide that they wanted the government to be able to pry into any private part of their life that it wanted to? 10 years ago you'd all have been screaming about how the government only wanted to do it so they could round up gun owners and now you are dancing in the street at the thought of giving the government access to you e-mail and phone records.

most of us are still wary of the government, but this bill, nor the patriot act gives government carte blache to spy on it's citizens. It gives them power to spy on communications with suspect people in other countries with a writ from a judge.

In fact the government has long had even greater power in combating drug crime, the mob etc.

So you see, it's not that we trust the government, it's that we have a realistic, and non-paranoid view of what this law does.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

...a fight like the one that you just lost can be distressing, especially since that the people that you lost to didn't spend nearly as much effort on winning as the people who lost spent on losing. Really, I didn't lose a night's sleep over this controversy, and I certainly didn't lose any time - or any money - over whether I was going to lose this one. Then again, I always knew that I'm no loser.

May I suggest that you try to lose yourself in a song?


The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

As someone who publicly criticizes politicians I hope the next president doesn't get vindictive against his critics and use his new powers on you.

And don't presume to lie to me: you quite badly want precisely that validation of your worldview to take place.

I'm afraid that I will require an apology from you now for your attempt to make said lie. Next post, please.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

If you will point out the lie I will happily apologize.

The right answer was "I apologize for lying to you." You folks really should do elementary oppo research; it might give you a clue about who the site moderators are.

On the bright side, we get to recapitulate the aftermath of the entire FISA tediousness: you have gotten your impotent whining in; the forces of Good have still triumphed; and the people with actual power may now go on to other things.

Bye.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

Dang. I wanted to see what his next "thought" about Pluto would be.

Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!

Since when was calls received from known international terrorsts considered 'any part' of one's private life?

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

to only use this on the so called terrorists, but since it removes all oversight the government can use it on whomever they want.

Well, the government can listen in on my phone calls if they want to, but it'd be kind of boring and I'd feel bad for whichever agent is assigned to listen to my phone calls. Most involve telling people that I'll be late because I'm working late.

or asking if they want me to get anything at the store.

Though, your "so called terrorists" bit really reveals you as the total troll that you are. They aren't 'so called terrorists' unless you also believe that 9/11 was an inside job.

Hinz rule. You are the weakest link.... Goodbye.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

I'm sure you wouldn't mind registering all your firearms either, right?

After all, you're not a crook, so what's the harm?

Have you added to the population of the McCain 2008 minicity yet today?

I drive a car powered by hydrogen - C8H18 to be exact.

- Because I personally don't particularly mind registering my firearms, assuming of course that "registering" isn't effectively a euphemism for "discouraging."

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

Could it be anything else?

Would you mind the government put cameras at every corner, UK-style? Or if they used cell phones to

Have you added to the population of the McCain 2008 minicity yet today?

I drive a car powered by hydrogen - C8H18 to be exact.

There's a big difference. Anyway, the disputed FISA law cooperation by the phone companies wasn't about listening in, IIRC. It had to do with written records of some kind. Lists of who called whom.

Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

...as part of the changeover. You guys done with him yet?

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

More like how the Czechs felt at Munich.

And seeing as how we are talking about Barack "I will meet with any dictator with no preconditions" Obama I think that is a more fitting allegory..

"Small town folks get bitter after which they cling to guns or religion, or antipathy to people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment"- Barack Carter Obama

YOU GOT PWNED.

thx, America.

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THIS IS THE SWEETEST FLIP FLOP OF OBAMA.

Remember how "Gallantly" and "Mightily" PROMISED to filibuster this Bill.

Well, promises of sweet deals especially during election can really change everything.

Never mind, the Old Man knew very well that this is GO even without him. My Old man is so wise!

Can someone please explain to me why conservatives are for this legislation (FISA)? Isn't this the biggest instance possible of big government? I really don't understand why the right is backing any of this, except that Liberals don't like it. Why would we want to immunize companies that broke the law by illegally spying on Americans? Why is that part of the legislation so vital to conservatives? Please explain.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

before asking these types of questions. You will find that you greatly misunderstand what FISA is.



McCain for POTUS so the left can't ruin SCOTUS.

Recent history indicated that terrorism can be fully thwarted if calls from questionnable nations could undergo surveillance. You need cooperation by telecom companies on this regard. But telecom companies will not participate if they have 100% legal immunity.

Democrats hate that because of their Privacy.

Whether this Bill is passed or not, you still have your original FISA Bill since 1970s.

Conservatives supports this bill for three main reasons:

1. Terrorism is real.
2. No privacy for terrorists and those who harbor terrorists.
3. STRINGENT SAFETY NET AGAINST ABUSE.

On Item 3, if the government leak used its power under this Law to unfairly usurp my privacy... I will get paid. Because I will sue them with more money. American Dream, brother. (JUST JOKING)

Downside: It will benefit Obama if Obama becomes the President. He had to make a compromise on this thing. Remember the Nixon watergate? This Bill could be a much better tool.

Conclusion: DON'T DO ANYTHING FOOLISH WHEN USING YOUR PHONE. AND DO GOOD BUSINESS. That way, you are 100% assured that the Law will not hit you... whether your are dem or rep.

That's why I support this Bill.

First, this argument that the telecoms won't help unless they get immunity is nonsense. Under FISA, if the government had a warrant they could not refuse to help. What you are saying is, "If we don't give them immunity for past lawbreaking, then they might refuse to break the law in the future."

As for your #3, stringent safeguards, If the government is secretly spying on you how would you know? And even if you did know, the government just has to say it would compromise national security if your lawsuit went forward and it is thrown out of court.

I can guarantee that whether ther is a dem or a repub in the White House this will be abused, because it gives them absolute power with no checks or safeguards.

already had for years, they just have to get a judge to Ok it.

Take the tinfoil hat off, there are a lot worse abuses in government that have been going on for decades.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

It is as though they expect this to happen:

(Setting: little room where a guy is listening to tapped lines of a known terrorist in some 'stan' country)

Guy 1: (excited) Hey, he's calling someone!

Guy 2: I'll trace the call, keep listening.

Guy 1: Ok.

Guy 2: Wait, quick! Hang up! This known terrorist that is actively trying to blow up the united states has called a number inside of the United States!

Guy 1: Holy Crap! (hangs up phone) I wouldn't want to accidently hear what was being said!

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

Your entire statement requires that we accept that they broke the law.

Please prove that they have done so when they were cooperating with the government in a legal investigation regarding international terrorists who called domestic phone numbers from overseas.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

Photobucket

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

Those who control energy, control society.

Or are they just crawling out of the wood work today?

In Vino Veritas

...FISA came up. Hopefully, now that it's over they'll find another bitter bone to chew.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I understand exactly what it is, now why immunize telecoms for illegal spying? Why immunize any corporation for law breaking?

As Moe says: Try Google.



McCain for POTUS so the left can't ruin SCOTUS.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

1.) "Reply to This" is a GREAT thing to click on.

2.) The company did not break the law, they cooperated with the government in the process of a legal investigation regarding international terrorists contacting domestic phone numbers.

3.) The protection is from the terrorist-supporting (via impediment of investigations and morale boosts, if not also financially) groups launching lawsuits against telcoms for cooperating with the government in the process of a legal investigation regarding international terrorists contacting domestic phone numbers.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

When the FISA law was written following the revelation of abuses in the 60s and 70s the wording specifically made the participation of communications companies in such a scheme illegal and removed the defense of "innocent because the government told us to do it." This was because Western Union was copying every single telegram and sending it to Washington.

So in fact these phone companies were clearly and knowingly breaking the law.

In a civilized country the president is not supposed to be able to order you to break the law.

Nope. You still need to prove that they were breaking the law when they were cooperating with the government in a legal investigation of known international terrorists who were calling domestic phone numbers from overseas.

Since the call originated from overseas, it is not protected in the same way as me calling my father to tell him "Happy Birthday!"

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

ignored the requirement to get warrants they were breaking the law, there is simply no other way to put it. They could have done the exact same thing legally, but they chose to do it illegally.

You don't need a warrant to tap the phone lines of a known international terrorist.

Nor should that terrorist calling a domestic number require that you hang up and wait a few hours until a warrant arrives (by then the phone call is over)

Give it up, hack. You're recycling old arguments so useless that I don't even have to analyze them, I just quote the rebuttals from memory.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

just like the idiots around the Guantanamo debate, they just can't get into their thick skulls that non citizens don't have the same rights as citizens.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

That's because they believe in Global Citizenship....instead of that outdated belief in citizenship to only one chunk of land.......lol.......;^)

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

Yup, but it is fun to note that they are upset over a legal action in a legal investigation thwarting the plans of known international terrorsts.

Just so they understand that they are supporting terrorists while they pretend to support liberty.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

Next thing, they'll be wanting to get a court order for Eisenhower to launch the invasion on D-Day. Or to actually use the Enigma machine to decode enemy messages.

Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!

We beat you. It's over. Your opinion doesn't matter.

And we didn't even break a sweat doing it, either. You guys were like kittens up against a tank.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I just want you to explain why you support immunity for telecom companies that broke the law, and yes they did break the law, if they didn't it would not be a deal breaker. I can't understand why any American would want to retro-actively immunize a large corporation for obvious law breaking before the facts come out.

1). Learn to thread posts properly. Reply to This is your friend.

2). Nobody cares about what you want, and you can't force us to revisit a fight that we've already won. Deal with it.

Moe Lane

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

If you are incapable of understanding how to use the "reply to this" button than you should not even bother trying to understand the FISA bill...let's take this one step at a time....ronpaulronpaulronpaul!!!!!.......;^)

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

You've been duped by the whole "Bush as evil dictator" narrative...

The longer the Democrats are in power, the more that narrative will continue to falter (on FISA, on the war, on energy -- name it...). If FISA is what you think it is, then why is the Democratic leadership letting it pass in this form?

The answer is, of course, that the left's self-serving narrative about FISA is and always has been false. There was no way to know this when Republicans held the reins, because Democrats simply played along with the paranoia to forward the "BushHitler" narrative. Now that they are in power, they simply can't hide there any more.

They seem know this, but you don't seem to.

I think the right was appropriately concerned about FISA, but in the absence of the BushHitler narritive, they had to discuss the issue sanely.

--
We would also like to know your advice for somebody like my daughter, who's going to graduate in two years, advice that you would give a young person.

SEC. RUMSFELD: Advice for a young person. Study history.

into the mud by telling me I just don't understand or haven't done my research, why not just explain why you support specific parts of FISA so I can better understand your position. Especially retro-active immunity for telecoms that broke the law.

....come on super sleuth you can do it...or si se puede if you like that better.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

You've asked a question I can't answer.

It is not my fault he can't comprehend the truth. You seem to have the same problem. Now if I were you I would get off the internets before "they" find you.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

is not a good place to start. The first question is, did they break the law? With that dealt with, it would seem in the public interest to protect these entities that are performing an act deemed to be in the interest of our national security from the tender mercies of noble organizations like the ACLU and the plantiffs' bar.

In Vino Veritas

Nobody has ever put forth any evidence that a single american citizen has been spied on by President Bush. Why would he even care to? We want to kill terrorists and make sure they don't hurt us again.

Retro-active immunity is a way to shield american companies from frivolous lawsuits that can cost millions of dollars, even if the companies are innocent. Why would these guys help the USA if they will be punished finacially for doing nothing wrong?

Why is the left obsessed with class-action law-suits? hhmm..campaign contributions from shyster lawers maybey?

How about this?--Nobody broke the law.

Now, nobody has to worry about frivolous, politically-motivated lawsuits as a result of cooperating with a Government request for assistance in fighting the War against Terrorists.

Now, go sit down and stifle for the rest of the hour.

Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!

to you calling Pluto a planet. It is just a very large rock.

Why does your opinion not surprise me?

You seem to be consistently wrong.

Pluto, the Ninth Planet - Forever!

I can't think of any reason that a corporation deserves immunity for knowingly breaking the law. Now, instead of trying to insult me, why don't you voice an opinion of your own, so I can better understand why you feel it is vital to immunize law breaking.

you're not worth bothering to insult.

In Vino Veritas

Please explain why cooperating with the government in a legal investigation regarding international terrorists contacting domestic phone numbers is breaking the law.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

This has already been demonstrated because you signed up about 20 minutes ago and obviously haven't read the posting rules. You continue to jack up the thread because of your inability to use the "reply to this" button at the bottom of each post. Who are you even talking to? What poster are you trying to converse with? Before we can have a discussion you need to understand how to post. Does that clear things up for you?

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

I am here to get an understanding of why conservatives, which I consider myself, are supporting these ridiculous bills. Especially why we support immunizing companies without first knowing what they did wrong. Why is that so essential?

So that they will continue helping us. They really don't have to, you know. Plus, the Telecoms only gave our govornment access to their hardware...that isn't illegal. If anyone broke any laws, it was our govornment (I don't think they did) and too-bad, so-sad you can't sue the govornment.

These people hate the fact that they lost - again - and they figure that whining about the results can blunt the force of our schadenfreude. Shake your head at 'em and move on.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

It is a genuine desire to know why the right threw out their principles and embraced authoritarianism.

We're not your psychoanalysts, and we have zero interest in your mental health.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I care about the young man's mental health, and I have some advice. Hey, fellow, read the National Review, and put down that copy of the NYTimes, and that copy of Mother Jones. It will do wonders for your constitution.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

There is a price for safe and free society. History taught me that.

You have to pay the price.

Price is "nada" if you're not doing anything. That's the original FISA Law of 1974.

Price is everything if you are a terrorist. Are you? If yes, FISA Law of 1974 or its amended version if all for you.

Choose the right thing. Don't do anything silly and you are free.

If the government does you silly thing. Sue it and you get your compensation.

Stop brandishing something which is not true.

"Stop brandishing something which is not true."

But then he would have nothing to say.....;^)

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

with a warrant, they have to comply. They are already immunized from any wrong doing as long as they are presented with a court order. Why by-pass the court?

As posted above by a few others...the telecoms were cooperating with a legal investigation at the request of our gov't this is not illegal but regardless of the legality the telecoms could have a civil lawsuit against them brought on by corrupt lawyers out for their own good instead of the countries. The FISA bill closes the loophole that would have allowed for the frivolous law suits. Otherwise the telecoms would have been dragged into court to prove that they didn't spy on American citizens. Now if you think it is fair to drag a company to court to prove a negative than fine go vote for RonPaul.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

Get going! Get a move on! This just passed, which means that you need to get up to a basic educational level pretty darn quick if you want to keep up with the people who've already done your homework.

Seriously, kid: you lost, we won, we're not here to hold your hand for you.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I just saw it as a simple thing really, you don't put companies in jeopardy for doing something the government told them was legal. After all, if the justice department tells you it's legal what the hell are you supposed to do?

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Besides, you aren't one of the inevitable bitter-enders that show up in FISA threads trying to fight a war that they lost filthy.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

Photobucket

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I am not a big Bush supporter, but he makes the lefties so damn crazy I would like to hang that poster at the local college! LOL

Watch them all start to twitch.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

on the front page

" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

The free exchange of ideas inevitably yields both heat and light.

Then put away your keyboard, take a few deep breaths, and trying reading a bit before you start typing again.

BTW the immunity is not from criminal or civil wrongdoing. Rather it's a method of protecting these companies from lawsuits alleging wrongdoing, or rather spelling out a summary defense from lawsuits for these companies so they don't have to spend millions of dollars against frivolous lawsuits.

Feel better yet? If you spend more time at rational sites like RedState reading the posts and discussions (we've had many discussions on FISA here, which you can find in the archives), you wouldn't get yourself tweaked out unnecessarily.

And Rightly So!

The Bush Administration, through some black holes, pays us on a per name basis and we want the money. Is that clear enough? Prolly not, but hey.

By the way, watch who you call. And that *82 thing won't keep us from tracking you. Did you know your cell phone has a GPS device in it that allows us to pinpoint your pinhead within seven feet? Heh.

The black helicopters are coming...
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

If you consider yourself a conservative as you claim then you need to drop the victim attitude. I didn't attack you I simply urged you to understand the posting rules before you come out trying to make waves. Next I expressed my opinion that you are either a RonPaul supporter or a disciple of the Obamassiah. Lastly I told you my opinion about you not being here in good faith because if you were you would have read the posting rules before screwing up a perfectly good thread.

Sorry I didn't sugarcoat my comments as to not offend your sensitive victimized nature.

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

Man, she's *COLD*. Truly a worthy opponent.

Man is free at the moment he wishes to be. --Voltaire

I came to the wrong place...Just looking for a new perspective. This is obviously a place where you can only preach to the choir and no actual ideas are exchanged. Sorry, I should have just got in line and started cheerleading.

Try countering why you think it SHOULDN'T be passed maybey.

Door's over there.

P.S. If you do not learn to use "Reply to This," you will be moved through it against your will. Your last warning on this topic.

Mgmt.

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Sorry you apparently didn't understand the answers, but decent reading comprehension and some basic legal knowledge are kinda minimum requirements here.

In Vino Veritas

Well, the rationale of immunity to telecoms is to ensure that they will not pay the price of legal suits that may emanate once they report private information that may be related to the surveillance.

Without it, no telecom will cooperate in the overall intelligence.

After realizing that they delayed the mediocre May numbers as long as possible, you haven't noted that the June numbers are likewise being delayed? And that his net traffic looks like this:

link

No, I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of money coming from the Netroots (*insert evil cackle here*)

And as soon as I figure out how to pry the relevant numbers out of the McCain campaign, I plan to start discussing it further. :)

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/9/122030/7402/425/548765

If your connection is fast enough and you have enough Ram you should really check out the crying and name calling and hateful comments from our progressive friends.

Clinton voted 'NO' on the final FISA vote. But so far I didn't see any 'embrace the lady' comments from the disheartened, rejected, emotionally distraught progressives yet.

They need shoulders to cry on now.

See ya in court!

William Howard Taft. The people who call themselves that today are best just known as lefties.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

I'm just being politically incorrect when I use the term they like to be called. Sure, they change the definitions of words to fit their intentions, but as long as the rest of the thread calls them what they are, spiders will pick up the comments and they will be found many ways. Go RedState Ranking!

;-)

"Socialist" was a perfectly good descriptive term. It fit them so well people could actually understand what they intended. So they had to drop it and corrupt the perfectly good word "Liberal." Now that we've wised up and self-identified "conservatives" outnumber "liberals" 2 to 1, they've abandoned it and are trying to corrupt another perfectly good word -- "progressive." To me they're still socialists --- or generic "leftists," if you prefer.

Are there any examples of wiretapping occurring without FISA authorization? Perhaps some examples of 'working around' the deficiencies of the current law?

Is the argument against this whole thing that if we pass immunity - we will never know if something bad was done? Seriously?

I confess to not paying attention to this - as I don't really see the problem. FISA works - its being updated so that it works better. Someone help me with the counter argument. Devil's Advocate if you will.

If you are talking to terrorist, FISA will get into you.

Other than that, It can't be used in any court as source of information, such as your conservations with your GF no. 2 or wife no. 2, and so on.

You can relax.

That's what they want you to believe, man!

Like, I checked out a book on free thinking and casting off the oppressive militaryindustrialcomplex and I had, like, white vans parked across the street for a week!

I mean, sure, they said "Al's Painting" on the side and my neighbor was having his house painted, but it was all a front, man!

They were spying on me and tapping my phone lines!

*puts on tin foil hat*

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

it is a written document. I happpen to be a lawyer and I know what am saying.

Go to your lawyer to understand the implications of the law in your daily life.

Now, stop your conspiracy theory.

You should only get worry if you are a terrorist or planning to become one, in any way.

BY THE WAY, THE MOTHER LAW HAS BEEN IN TACT SINCE 1974. If something wrong will go on... blame your democrats who altered the original context of the law.

I'm sorry, I thought the *puts on tin foil hat* bit would have been enough to show that I was not being serious.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

You're all clowns, like my fav pres bush. That joeyp guy was really annoyed since he couldn't follow on your exchange of jokes!

What are you on? Seems you're all so happy. Beware, if Obama wins this FISA can give trouble to us all. It's really a double-edged thing. Do good... that's the only advice I could give.

I am all amped up on HOPECHANGE™......n/t

"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

Oh so you're the ones who were going to bankrupt the telecoms with your frivolous lawsuits. For shame.

When is Obama going to pay a price for his chicanery?

BTW, check out this new website, www.notwrightforamerica.com. It's great, and I expect to hear a lot more about how Obama is not WRIGHT for America. It's a terrific slogan! And that was one of his first flip flops--first he stood by Wright, then he dumped him when it became too politically costly to stick with him. A recurring story with Obama!

So... let me see if I get this right.

They had a vote before to determine whether or not they would have a vote on cloture.

Now they're having the vote on cloture.

No wonder why Congress can't get anything done. They have to discuss and vote on any discussion and voting.

Then, in between such discussion and votes, they go on another vacation.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

Hang around here for a couple of more years and that kind of thing will become an *encouraging* sign of progress, swift and forthright action, where Congress is concerned.

And I'm only exaggerating a little.

Well, long ago, Rush said that the american people benefited the best when Congress was in Gridlock.

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Dependence is Slavery.

Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.85

I flash on this image of Congress and it's usually an image of this enormous, Terry Gilliam-esqe machine that takes up entire city blocks and for which the all the blueprints as well as the specifications and books describing the theory of operation have been lost: a vast, churning powerplant that has been hybridized with a directed-mutation cyborg, with surrealistic people walking around inside of it, hideously screeching bearings running dry and parts banging around for no discernable purpose other than to waste as much energy as possible, belching steam and noxious gas, straining the grid at its connections, causing lights to blink out whenever certain huge parts of it blink on and off, clacking and whirring and grinding into motion and then suddenly falling silent, seemingly at random.

So this made Congress look like a Singer sewing machine by comparison.

Defend Liberty -- Join the NRA | Live in Massachusetts? Join GOAL.

there are these elephants that stick there trunks in my pocket and take out my money, there are these evil, scary looking clowns who try to stuff me in a little tiny car, there are people throwing knives at me through a burning constitution, and there is PT Barnum laughing at me, saying "There is a sucker born every minute"

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Seriously....those are totally incredible.


The Unofficial RedState FAQ
“You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say. ” - Martin Luther

This is not "unconstitutional", the paultards are either ignorant or dishonest trolls trying to help the far-left and our nations enemies.

See this debate by Constitutional Scholars on the subject of FISA and the Constitutional history behind such measures.

http://www.fed-soc.org/debates/dbtid.13/default.asp

I didn't think it was ever in doubt that the telcos were not going to get immunity. They are too powerful of a lobby to let something like this not pass. Were their actions under the President's wiretapping program illegal? Don't know since it was secret and looks like it will stay that way.
There's nothing wrong with trusting the government on this one.

The're possibly the ones who convinced Obama. For Obama, it's all about business and campaign finance, you know.

Who is the WH bipartisanship message suppose to play to guys? Is that some type of play for the middle? Perhaps those disgusted with Congress? Honestly, are you only thinking about what people might want to hear?

This is about leadership and a few people who stood against Democratic leadership that does not have our countries best interest at heart. It is about superiority of ideals and principals.

You spin in as some type of melodramatic, hand holding, kumbaya, why can't we all get along event. Do you truly believe that adequately conveys our message?

Really, stop reading the polls and get you behinds off the chair. I for one am growing tired of you throwing victory into the jaws of defeat.

"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report

So the guy believes that it is better for him to P!ss off the nutroots and the Clinton folks and the liberals, as if the center really cares about FISA?!! One would think depressing the money and energy of the Obamorons would be worse for him than just staying consistent.

Now he is not only showing he will lie about ANYTHING, but that he can not be trusted on ANY ISSUE he has ever taken a stand on.

Add this to the rest of the people who have been thrown under the bus. "that was not the FISA I knew 20 days ago!!"

"Small town folks get bitter after which they cling to guns or religion, or antipathy to people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment"- Barack Carter Obama

"J. Edgar Hoover would have loved this. The Clinton administration wants government to be able to read international computer communications – financial transactions, personal e-mail and proprietary information sent abroad – all in the name of national security.

In a proposal that raises obvious concerns about Americans’ privacy, President Clinton wants to give agencies the keys for decoding all exported U.S. software and Internet communications. . . .

Not only would Big Brother be looming over the shoulders of international cybersurfers, he also threatens to render our state-of-the-art computer software engineers obsolete and unemployed.

Granted, the Internet could be used to commit crimes, and advanced encryption could disguise such activity. However, we do not provide the government with phone jacks outside our homes for unlimited wiretaps. Why, then, should we grant government the Orwellian capability to listen at will and in real time to our communications across the Web?

The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value. . . .

Every medium by which people communicate can be exploited by those with illegal or immoral intentions. Nevertheless, this is no reason to hand Big Brother the keys to unlock our e-mail diaries, open our ATM records or translate our international communications."

-John Aschcroft

Patriot Act.

Obviously you are therefor misusing this quote.



McCain for POTUS so the left can't ruin SCOTUS.

"Get over it."

-Moe Lane

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I wonder if the American people aren't the ones referred to as "you lost" in this case. I don't trust John McCain with this power, I don't trust Barack Obama with this power, and I sure as hell don't trust Hillary Clinton with this power.

My concern isn't so much this plausible affront to the Consitution -- but frankly, the blatant attitude we've seen from the executive about having its hand caught in the cookie jar. What other kinds of crap are going on that we *don't* know about... that's my question. And given Mr. Ba-Rock Star Obama's very strong likelihood of capturing the White House this fall, we need to stop and think... have we just been had? Have we just given the Dems a route to, perhaps, listen in on private GOP phone calls and e-mails? You *know* they would do it in a heartbeat given the chance.

To quote George Lucas, "I have a bad feeling about this." Perhaps it's not justified... but history is not exactly comforting with respect to these kinds of questions. And really, I have more questions than answers at this point. I just hope we don't end up rueful of this day.

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I'm NetRanger, and I approve this message. Unless it has bad spelling, grammar, or I just plain screwed up some of the facts in it. In that case, it wasn't me.

Well, you and the rest of the anti-FISA folks certainly don't.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

And we wonder why we're going to lose this fall...

---
I'm NetRanger, and I approve this message. Unless it has bad spelling, grammar, or I just plain screwed up some of the facts in it. In that case, it wasn't me.

Jeebus, but you anti-FISA people love teh drama.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I'm always amazed at the number of people out there who think the big bad government is going to spy on them. Like the government really gives a rat's hind end about their lives. Clearly not people who have actually been a federal employee. If they had they would have witnessed enough apathetic waste of oxygen that they would realize how stupid they sound. Hell I personally watched Clinton fail to get something implemented by the cabinet secretaries because a bunch of GS-12s refused to rise above their laziness.

"If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country."

NetRanger

Can you tell me where in the Constitution you find this right to privacy that would seem to underpin your angst?

Once you've found that argument, can you tell me what system of checks and balances (aka courts of law) you'd like to see put in place to protect you?

Or is your angst just of the generalized, I feel this is so and nothing can change my mind because this is how I feel about the matter and you know feelings...nothing more than feelings.

Or maybe not.

______________________________________

NObama...no way!.....McCain '08 !

What exactly was won here? How is this good for small-government conservatism?

Fortunately this constitutional breach will be tested in the courts.

 
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