The US owes Carthage reparations for the Punic Wars

After all, we're as responsible for that as we are for what the Japanese did during WWII

By Jeff Emanuel Posted in | Comments (40) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

[UPDATE] Well done - the vote on H.R. 1595 has been postponed until tomorrow. Don't stop calling, though - make sure to let your Representative know that you don't want money taken out of your pocket to pay reparations to everybody injured by every war in history.

Note: Look here for your "important action alert." I guess this (or this) can count as the "vicious rant" portion of this notifier ;-)

In 146 BC the third Punic War, between the rising Italic city of Rome and the waning North African power of Carthage, came to a brutal and complete close. Provoked by little but suspicious memories of two previous wars with the Phoenician colony, Rome descended on the city with swift and terrible force, laying seige to Carthage and, following the immortal words of Marcus Portius Cato ("Carthago delenda est"), committed to remaining until the total destruction of the city had been achieved.

Thousands of Carthaginians died fighting against Rome, or from starvation as a result of the seige. In the end, Scipio Aemilianus, the adoptive grandson of Scipio Africanus (the hero of the second Punic War, who fought against the brilliant general Hannibal), stormed the city, burning the remaining people out and selling the survivors into slavery, after which he cursed and supposedly salted the ground, declaring that it would remain barren and uninhabited forever.

Call 202-224-3121 today and ask for your Representative's office. Tell your Congressman to oppose H.R. 1595.

We shouldn't be paying for other countries' atrocities.

There are no pure descendants of the people of Carthage remaining today. However, there may well be those left alive who are descended in some form or fashion from those brutally conquered North Africans - and, if they can be found, the United States needs to pay them reparations for their suffering at the hands of Rome from America's own treasury.

Are you wondering what the heck I'm talking about? I mean, seriously - what in the world does the US have to do with this anyway, and why in the world would we owe reparations to a country for an action that we had no part of?

That's a question for House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) and his eight compatriots, all of whom have co-sponsored a bill that would require that America pay reparations to the people of Guam for - get this - the actions of the Japanese in World War II.

According to the bill (HR.1595, the "Guam World War II Loyalty Recognition Act"), the people of Guam:

suffered unspeakable harm as a result of the occupation of Guam by Imperial Japanese military forces during World War II , by being subjected to death, rape, severe personal injury, personal injury, forced labor, forced march, or internment.

For this reason (?), "the Secretary of the Treasury shall make payments" to WWII survivors and their descendants on Guam for the brutal actions of a third party.

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? After all, the US is the largest aid donor on the planet; it's only logical that we should rebuild, repatriate, and reparate every country that has been hurt by every war that we can find. Let's not stop with Guam - let's include everybody from Carthage on up to the present. Should we pay reparations to the Koreans for the Mongol invasions of the 14th century, and to the Spanish for the loss of their Armada in 1588? Why not?

And while this bill holds up $126,000,000.00 for the repayment of the people of Guam for what the Japanese did (as well as $5,000,000.00 for "the Secretary of the Interior [to] establish a grants program [to]...award grants for research, educational, and media activities that memorialize the events surrounding the occupation of Guam during World War II, honor the loyalty of the people of Guam during such occupation, or both, for purposes of appropriately illuminating and interpreting the causes and circumstances of such occupation and other similar occupations during a war"), our soldiers can't even get a dime in supplemental appropriations.

Way to go, Democrats. Your "blame America first" (even for things we have nothing to do with), anti-US soldier attitudes, actions, and mindsets have just been taken to a new level.


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The US owes Carthage reparations for the Punic Wars 40 Comments (0 topical, 40 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »

Expect diversionary funding bombardment on American Samoa to commence shortly.

Whether reparations are the right thing or not, even a casual search suggests that the United States may have some connection to the issue because it signed a treaty in 1951 that cut off the rights of people in Guam (and other places) to seek reparations from Japan. And, Congress previously approved reparations in 1945, but apparently did so with conditions that made it unlikely that many could seek them.

Also, has the US made reparations to other occupied places?

And who are the co-sponsors? The link to the bill didn't work for me.

Harry Reid on Iraq: “I say we’ve lost. Let’s bring our boys home in, oh, say 18 months. In the meantime, no more funding for them.”

......What will they think of next????????

"You never need a firearm,until you need it BADLY!"

Got nice polite words from their office staff. Hopefully it does something.

______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Filipinos want a slice of this pie! Guam?...sheesh....give me a break!!

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

The Philippines received reparations from Japan in 1956. The difference for Guam is that a treaty between Japan and the US in 1951 barred similar reparations for Guam.

about me?..I'm emotionally scarred, and it's been very tough since 1965...

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

on Guam for three days when he was in the Marine Corps.

We want ours, too.
____
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

I admire your strength...our time is now...we will get ours.

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

1/4, anyway. And not only was there that Trail of Tears thing (kidding aside for a moment -- that was a truly nasty business, that), but I think I can personally saddle the blame on Harry Reid for my people not getting a 'plum' piece of the Indian Territory. I'll be checking my mail.....

It's war -- so when can we start shooting back at the enemy Democrats?

I think I visited Guam as a child! Stroke the check, suckas!

Perhaps the Democrats believe in reincarnation; that might explain why they believe we should pay for someone else's atrocities.

And, just for kicks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW7mbK5cuaA

Since he's a cosponsor.

Again, a little homework can be your friend. This issue isn't new as there was apparently Congressional action on this as early as 1945.

Sensenbrenner is wrong on this. However, let us be clear, it is the Democrats that are bringing this bill to the floor for a vote.

I did my homework, Purple Vet; and this issue belongs in the history books, not the House Floor.

Why not bring it to the House Floor?

we should never pay reparations for ancient sinc committed by others.
This is simply setting the groundwork for new slavery reparations from American Slavery.
Guam is just a test. thiking this has anything at all to do with justice, equity or fairness to the people of Guam is fooling one's self.

Maybe I'm just resistent to the idea that something that happened in my lifetime is "ancient" but it's really not that long ago. And since US action apparently cut off any claims these folks would have otherwise had, I don't see why debating it is such a crime.

And since the "groundwork" for these reparations was laid in 1945, I don't see how you can claim that it's a ruse for some kind of slavery reparations.

The Japanese were punished for their sins, and America did the punishing. Let's face it, if anything Guam owes the U.S., not vice versa. Not that we want their money; freedom and democracy is a gift from God, and I'm happy that the U.S. was the tool used to give it to Japan and other Asian countries.

My ancestors were American farmers. They struggled after immigrating because they did not receive farm subsidies, obviously a necessary human right. I demand reparations from the U.S. government, because my family would be wealthier had the government taken more wealth from Carnegie, Morgan, Vanderbilt, et al, and giving it to my family (despite the top marginal tax rate reach about 90% at one point).

I'll be waiting for my check.

********************************
And statesmen at her council met
Who knew the seasons when to take
Occasion by the hand, and make
The bounds of freedom wider yet
- Tennyson, _To the Queen_

On the one hand, I think this proposal is decidedly bad. Having lived in the Pacific, I can tell you the last thing these islands need is to have more money dumped on them.

On the other hand, the motive behind this proposal is not outrageous. The people on that island, like the people of the Philippines, suffered immensely from the Japanese occupation--a suffering that can be traced directly to their being subjects of the United States. For forty years before the war, we had occupied the island and used it for our purposes. The people there, though not American citizens, were decidedly American subjects.

Accordingly, the Japanese treated them with special brutality.

So, the proposal, under the heading "Loyalty Recognition Act," seems not motivated by a desire to make reparations to any and all persons who have suffered, nor to suggest that America was responsible for the crimes. No such reparation is proposed for neighboring Saipan (which had been a Japanese territory) or for American Samoa (which was not occupied by the Japanese). Rather, it's designed for a peculiar class of people to whom the United States does owe a certain debt of gratitude: civilians who were American subjects (and since 1950, American citizens) who endured, on the front line, the brutality of the enemy.

As such, this proposal strikes me as motivated by reasons similar to those behind the special appropriations made to the families of victims of 9-11 (which appropriations were problematic for some similar, and some different reasons).

"People will not look forward to posterity who never look backward to their ancestors." -Edmund Burke

With your hand on the Bible, "Is this the t..., the whole t... and nothing but the whole t...?" Please spare no detail...give more meat and claiming substance. Let's know; where was this in Tijuana? Was there London Bridge in the bag too?

The 1951 treaty also has to be taken into account in any discussion of this issue. Perhaps direct victims should be allowed to seek damages against Japan. This isn't as cut and dried as it seems at first blush.

After looking int this it is not as clearcut. I got off the phone with my Grandpa a bit ago. He served in the Pacific and spent a good deal of time serving his Country in Guam post war. He is no flaming liberal that is for sure. He told me that he can still recall the stories of heroism on that ISland during the occupation. He thought this was a right thing to do. Got to go with Pa Pa on this one. That tips it for me

as expressed above leaves me flabbergasted. The bill makes no sense on any level.

I started to explain myself, but was at a loss for words that would be understood by anybody who requires the explanation.

Folks, if you think this Democrat bill is a good idea, let the Democrats justify it. Don't carry their water for them. I would guess that few of them know the "mitigating" factors you've mentioned above. They're just pandering, as usual.

Personally, I think the bill should move forward and pass, just so we can use it as a campaign issue.

Harry Reid on Iraq: “I say we’ve lost. Let’s bring our boys home in, oh, say 18 months. In the meantime, no more funding for them.”

chickens before they're hatched. The fact that this issue has hung around for 60 years suggests that it's not necessarily going to pass this time around.

And, if you think that a campaign issue that can be framed as beating up on Americans who suffered at the hands of the Japanese in WWII is a good one, I'm sure the Democrats would be thrilled at the gift.

Can hit up the Queen for my share of reparations for starving my folks out of Ireland or... perhaps he should thank her for me, I get to be an American now.

The longer we dwell on our misfortunes the greater is their power to harm us - Voltaire

Where does it stop. I thought the WTC compensation was a bad idea. We are creating a culture of compensation -- easy to do this and feel good when it's other peoples' (i.e., taxpayers') money.

Reparations are creating a bad precedent for the future. Just think how many average white guys are out there waiting to cash in from politically correct affirmative action damages in the future!

If you always find yourself arguing the exceptions rather than the rule you just might be rapidly sliding down your own slippery slope to irrelevance. -CommonCents

Caught between Carthaginian invaders and the Roman Republic, the sufferings of our ancestors were great. Cleaning up after elephants who trample the vineyards can ruin your whole day.

Now it would be hard to prove descent from those ancestors, but I'm sure I'm poorer for their tribulations. And I FEEL poorer, and that's what counts.

Will take settlement in cash, thank you.

Reparations- that's French for taxes

S

unless people can show me otherwise.

It appears that many people of the Island of Guam were loyal to the US. Read this excerpt from Wilki
"The Northern Mariana Islands had become a Japanese protectorate before the war. It was the Chamorros from the Northern Marianas who were brought to Guam to serve as interpreters and in other capacities for the occupying Japanese force. The Guamanian Chamorros were treated as an occupied enemy by the Japanese military. After the war, this would cause some resentment by the Guamanian Chamorros towards the Chamorros in the Northern Marianas. Guam's occupation lasted for approximately thirty-one months. During this period, the indigenous people of Guam were subjected to forced labor, family separation, incarceration, execution, concentration camps and prostitution. Approximately a thousand people died during the occupation according to Congressional Testimony in 200o"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam

So we have a case where people of the same ethnic group split. Many remaining loyal to the US after we evacuated. It seems that the people of Guam were irratated that Japan never had to pay them.

This money appears to be linked ot funds out of 6 billion that Japan is giving the US to move Marines from Okinawi to Guam. Five million of this will go so this story is not forgotten. It seems like justice in a indirect way is being done. Even though Japan is not directly paying it.

One other note. The Guam National Guard is serving in the Horn of Africa right now. Alos the Republican party is strong in Guam and I dont see where anyone asked their take on this.

I hate to say it but perhaps looking at google the conservative blogsphere has taken a story and run with it wothout checking out all the facts. It also might cause damage to the party there as well as offense against descendants of people that stayed loyal.

I can be convinced otherwise though if people can show this is incorrect

This money appears to be linked ot funds out of 6 billion that Japan is giving the US to move Marines from Okinawi to Guam. Five million of this will go so this story is not forgotten. It seems like justice in a indirect way is being done. Even though Japan is not directly paying it.

Other than the ones you posted in the other thread, which make no mention of that linkage.

-----------
We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!

I am looking now to see a more definate link. This was not all that popular in Japan the paying of this money. FOr diplomatic reasons such a link might not have been put in the agreement. However at the end of the day the US Govt will be receiving 6.1 billion form Japan to move troops from Guam. 5 million will go to the tell the heroic story of these people that stayed loyal to us while many of their same related ethnic group sided with the Japanese.

It appears that there are still some feeling by the people of Guam that Japan should have paid something. At least this might give them the sense of Justice. I see nothing wrong in this especially as we continue to move assets to Guam and depend on that ISland even more in the future. It seems like the decent and smart thing to do. Why create the possibility of some opposition movement or hostility when it is so needless. Also I am not thrilled that a Republican Party that seems to control the Govt some there might be tarred by our actions.

... I can assume that you support the same treatment for the Philippines? After all many, many Filipinos remained loyal to the US after the Japanese invasion and the US withdrawal. If loyalty is the criteria then this certainly seems fair to me. And how about those Aleutian Islanders that were impacted by the Japanese invasion?

The obvious reason why we are not doing this for the Philippines is that they foolishly wanted independence and thus do not have a 'delegate' in Congress to advocate for them --- watch this space for further developments on this latest raid on the taxpayers.

John
----------
Modern Art: Created by the untalented, sold by the unscrupulous, purchased by the unknowing.

Japan did give reparations to the the Phillipines. This was concluded in a 1956 Treaty. Japan gave that nation 198 billion yen as well as 90 billion yen in Loans
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/reparations.html

Even making the the current Guam legislation even more morally compelling

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

"In 1987, Senate bill S. 1009, the War Reparations Act, was passed which provided compensation for Japanese-Americans interned by the U.S. government and which included a section providing the compensation for the Aleutian islanders. The Aleutian and Pribilof Islands Restitution Fund was set up by Treasury and operated by the Secretary of the Interior to make restitution for certain Aleut losses. $5,000,000 was set aside for the benefit of the Aleut communities. The funds were used to assist (1) the elderly, disabled or seriously ill; (2) students in need of scholarship assistance; (3) preservation of Aleut cultural heritage and historical records; (4) the improvement of community centers in affected Aleut villages; and (5) other purposes to improve Aleut life. Records indicate that 881 Aleuts were relocated in World War II. It is significant to also note that individuals were each given $12,000 from the fund for any uncompensated personal property losses."
http://www.house.gov/bordallo/gwcrc/Bordallo_Statement_120803.htm

Now that is of course from the Dem Delagate statement. But I suspect that could be verifyed

The Guam issues reminds me of something Sarkozy said in his speech and it is sad when I have to look to France for inspiration. But Sarko said this: "I want to give French people back the pride of being French -- to finish with repentance, which is a form of self-hate,"

Repentance and reperations are liberal tools to sow American doubt, skepticism and self-hate. The whole idea of reparations is just bad. It just creates an awful precedent.

Liberals have an agenda here and its not about American heroism and WWII. Its about Ameria apologizing to the world. If we owe Guam reperations, what about victims of Japanaese Internment, certain native American peoples and so on and so on.

Liberals think America is the problem. Don't give them one inch and create some precedent for American reperations. First, it's unjust. Second, it wont end. Third, it helps sow the seeds of American doubt and self-hate.

Do you really think the liberals care about this one historical event so much as they do humbling America. Modern American history has become one long epic of American oppressing "victimized" peoples. Liberals have had their eyes on a variety of reperation bills for some time. I suspect there may be using this issue to get people comfortable with the idea.

David Horowitz has done yeomans work fighting reparations. I've been entrenched in the bastions of Northeast academia, so I may be more familiar with the debate over reparations. Liberals love reparations. It forces America to apologize to victimized groups in front of the world and it redistributes wealth. A liberal's fantasy. Horowitz has been fighting the movement for slavery reparations for a while. Although not Guam, some of the same principles apply:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1153

 
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