Kwanzaa: The Fraudulent Holiday

By Erick Posted in Comments (82) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

ImageEvery year school children across the United States are forced to celebrate Kwanzaa by their politically correct, union backed teachers. So, every year I try to write a piece reminding people about what a media backed scam Kwanzaa really is -- all of the makings of a Hallmark "holiday," i.e. a "holiday" solely designed to get you to buy crap.

Kwanzaa did not come about until the 1960's. It was founded by a felon named Ron Karenga. Mr. Karenga spent time in prison for assaulting and torturing two black women. According to one of the the women in a Los Angeles Times article, the two women "were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Ms. Davis's mouth and placed against Ms. Davis's face." For more on this, go here.

Let's also remember Mr. Karenga's own words. He noted, "People think it's African, but it's not. I came up with Kwanzaa because black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of Bloods were partying." You be sure to remember that quote when your child is forced to celebrate it at school. Be sure to also remember Mr. Karenga called Jesus "psychotic" and called Christianity a white religion black people should shun.

And when the President of the United States issues his Kwanzaa best wishes, remember this quote from Tony Snow, who said, "There is no part of Kwanzaa that is not fraudulent."

Now, I'd go on and tell you all about how Kwanzaa is meant to celebrate African heritage and is not celebrated in Africa and how the symbols of Kwanzaa are not used in African traditions or how Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson said "the whole holiday is made up. You won't find its roots in Africa or anywhere else." But there is no need. Just go check out the Wikipedia entry here.


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they are always surprised because of course the history is not taught in school again this is only because of what is commonly known as white guilt that it is even taught at all.
The phrase "a sucker is born every minute" is not out there for nothing.
Peace through superior fire power:)

shows that many of the slaves before the Civil War, and many black leaders after the Civil War (including Martin Luther King) appealed to the teachings of Jesus in favor of the poor and the oppressed to justify their (legitimate) demands for equal treatment under the law in the United States.

As a young child, Jesus lived in exile in Egypt--as an adult, His people were living under Roman occupation.

It would therefore seem reasonable for black people to celebrate the birth of a man who demanded liberation for the oppressed and preached that God was on their side--and celebrate Christmas.

It's true that many non-black people also celebrate Christmas, and there's nothing in the Christmas story that celebrates black people in particular. Jesus came to deliver everyone from the slavery of sin, and people of every race can joyfully celebrate His birth.

Rather than celebrate "blackness" that divides black people from everyone else, why not celebrate the birth of the man who preached about uniting people of every race, tongue, and nation in the Kingdom of God?

A uniter, not a divider...now where have I heard that before?

The bad news: Conservatism is hard to sell. The good news is that it works.

I am amazed that this "HOLIDAY" has managed to persist despite the fact nobody but nobody understands what it is or how its supposed to be celebrated.

that it exist and that people be reminded of its importance. Even if no one out there ever 'observed' it again it will continue to roll on in America's consciousness because to not do wo would be racist --- or something.


John
--------
Ethnic humor is part of human nature. The Dutch tell Belgian jokes. The Belgians tell French jokes. The French tell English jokes. The English tell Irish jokes. The Irish tell Irish jokes.

but I do find it interesting that it is estimated that 4.7 million Americans celebrate Kwanzaa and only 4.3 million Americans celebrate Hanukkah.
I don't really know what constitutes a "fraudulent" holiday (I have my skepticism about the Maccabees' Miracle Oil, as well as the Virgin Birth), but it seems that if a significant chunk of people are celebrating it, then it's a real holiday, or at least as real as they get.

at least has the advantage of being an actual honest-to-God tradition that wasn't created out of whole cloth one afternoon by a misogynistic felon.


John
--------
Ethnic humor is part of human nature. The Dutch tell Belgian jokes. The Belgians tell French jokes. The French tell English jokes. The English tell Irish jokes. The Irish tell Irish jokes.

How long does something have to be around before it is considered a tradition? I can imagine someone several thousand years ago posting on an internet message board, "Hanukkah? That's not a tradition! The Jews just invented out of whole cloth 40 years ago!"

Hanukkah is supposed to be honoring an actual event though. It's not just invented out of the blue.
--
Run like Reagan!

A holiday is only a holiday if it commemorates a historical event, not just a vague idea.
Signed,
Halloween, Memorial Day, Valentine's Day, Labor Day, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and Veteran's Day

Memorial Day and Veteran's Day don't commemorate a historical event?

I'll wait for your answer before I blow your doors off.
_______________________________
If "pro" is the opposite of "con", what is the opposite of "progress"?

Both commemorate a group of people, their deeds, and their virtues (much like Kwanzaa).
Granted, Veterans' Day is celebrated on the same day as Armistice Day, but the two aren't the same holiday. The former celebrates American veterans, the latter commemorates the end of WWI. The former is an official American holiday, the latter is not.

Armistice Day and Veterans Day are the same holiday. Look it up

but they celebrate two different things, hence the name change.

Since you accepted the definition of Hannukah as a real event let's look at the list.

Halloween. Not a holiday but it is the Vigil for the Feast of All Saints, November 1, a liturgical holiday and has the same religious status as Hannukah.

Memorial Day. Started to memorialized the dead from the Civil War, a real event by most accounts.

Valentine's Day. The feast of Saint Valentine, a liturgical holiday and commemorating a real event. Also, not a holiday.

Labor Day. You got me. Ditto for Father's Day and Mother's Day.

Veterans Day. Originally Armistice Day, for November 11, 1918. It became Veterans Day in 1954.

Greeting card companies. But then again everyone has one of each.

So either of those is more substantiated than Kwanzaa. Though I don't really recognize any of the three, heh.
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Run like Reagan!

No wonder they all vote Democrat. Yeesh!

I need to see some kind of a retraction for this or you're a goner.

and a pretty obvious one, I thought.

because I didn't see the joke. I saw one person saying they didn't observe three holidays and you saying that "African Americans are real people" when Kwanzaa is not a holiday to honor African Americans but rather a peculiar set of alleged virtues.

Your next post should contain a retraction.

My joke was not funny. No one here is racist or believes that African-Americans are not "real people." Kwanzaa has nothing to do with celebrating African-American "people" and everything to do with celebrating African-American "culture and values" which are completely unrelated. In addition, lots of African-Americans vote Republican, and it was wrong for me to claim that "all" of them vote Democrat. Also, I apologize for typing Yeesh! and slang way of saying "Jeez," which is clearly short for "Jesus" and therefore a violation of the 4th commandment (3rd if you are Catholic). I also apologize for giving the Protestant version of the Decalogue precedence and relegating the Catholic version to lowly parenthesis.
I was completely and utterly wrong in every word of my one line post, and I shall ever look back on this as a day of shame for my egregious misdeed. Now I'm off to don my hairshirt in contrition.

...for accusing another reader of being a sociopathic racist, drop us a line and we'll think about turning your account back on.

(clickity click)

Dang. Somebody got to you already. Better hope that he's nicer than I am.

Moe

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

These are all holidays that are celebrated on a certain date for a reason. But are you honestly telling me that anyone who celebrates Valentines Day is commemorating the martyrdom of Saint Valentine, etc.? None of them have anything to do with a historical event anymore. I'm not sure what your definition of a "holiday" is, but if you're going by the federal list, then Easter and Hanukkah aren't holidays.

It doesn't matter if people realize what they're commemorating. The tradition remembers even if the people forget.
--
Run like Reagan!

but I think I'd be on safe ground betting that you can make this specious claim about any holiday. But the issue isn't what "anyone" believes, the issue is the root of the event.

And I'm going by your definition of a holiday so if you want to take all your other examples off the table, have at it. Mothers Day and Fathers Day aren't federal holidays either.

as given above, is any day that a group of people celebrates. I was only trying to figure out why you claimed that a number on my list weren't. I assumed that you must be using the federal list. What is your definition that excludes some on my list?

is a holiday by your definition.

That's not what I said at all, but it looks like Streiff already smacked you down good anyway, heh.
--
Run like Reagan!

This brought St Patricks Day to mind more than anything else, as an equivalent "holiday" that took root in America as a result of a cultural minority (the Irish) who started using parades as something of a nationalistic and/or cultural display of pride in the 1800's during which time Irish immigrants were generally seen as unwanted. The rest of the story, of course, is that today most Americans generally recognize St Patrick's Day as a legitimate day of celebration whether we're of Irish descent or not, without a lot of regard for the various details of its history, because the viewpoint is that whatever the origins, modern observances entail activities and attitudes that the majority culture accepts.

(Yes, I know that the genesis of the celebration was of a religious nature, but even Ireland didn't officially recognize it as a public holiday until 1903, whereas the cultural-minority motivated parades started in America during the 1700's.)

The insight into the history of it's founder is interestng and appreciated, but I'm not sure how Kwanzaa in and of itself is anymore fraudulent than America's secular observance of St Patrick's Day. It's certainly an occasion to sell lots of beer and green memorabilia - but the legal capitalistic exploitation and resultant commerce derived thereof are very much commendable aspects of both these holidays, IMO.

I'm not sure how Kwanzaa in and of itself is anymore fraudulent than America's secular observance of St Patrick's Day.

There actually was a Saint Patrick. He was celebrated by the Irish in their home country, and then celebrated in America. In that sense it can be considered a transplanted holiday.

If Kwanzaa were to be similar it would have started out as a holiday in Africa and been continued here in this country. But the real analogy here would be if all "Asians" (a non existent group in Asia) were to suddenly decide they needed a specific Asian holiday and manufacture one out of nothing.

My nephew has a Veggie Tales video about him, so the story behind the tradition is definitely alive.

--
Run like Reagan!

Kwanzaa claims to celebrate the African roots of African-Americans, which are real; to reinforce the bonds between members of the African American segment, which are real; and to reinforce various ideals, which are real, or at least as "real" as Unity, Self-Determination, Collective Work and Responsibility, Cooperative Economics, Purpose, Creativity, and Faith can be.

Now the OP tells me that this is all a sham because the founder was a criminal, with an ideological background that I wouldn't agree with. And I'm left very much disliking the man. That's fine with me. But I don't find anything at fault in the preceeding characterization of Kwanzaa which comes from their "official website". If you want to call it a movement instead of a holiday that's fine with me too. We don't get time off for Kwanzaa any more than we do for St Patrick's Day, so I guess neither really fit the term, 'holiday', from that standpoint.

To read this post and then leap to the conclusion that Kwanzaa itself is a fraud would require me to buy into a conspiracy theory that the (cited elsewhere in the thread) ~7MM American citizens who celebrate Kwanzaa all say they believe in the stated purpose of Kwanzaa but actually want to, what? Overthrow the majority culture? Do away with Christianity? Promote Marxism in America?

I need more substantiation of such a conspiracy. Until then I'm inclined to accept that 7MM people enjoy the celebration of Kwanzaa and all that it claims to stand for today, regardless of its recent pedigree and the background of its founder, and can't see any just reason to designate such celebrations, and by proxy, those celebrating it, as frauds and/or dupes.

My comparison to St Patricks Day wasn't meant to be exact, but they certainly are comparable in the manner I described - both observances took root in America due to a cultural minority promoting them, with the possible additional parallel of initial disdain from the majority culture. Time will tell if Kwanzaa follows a similar path to majority acceptance, if not necessarily majority adoption. Clearly the majority culture no longer sees a significance to St Patrick's Day that is related to its origin, as opposed to, in the OP's words, being a "'holiday' solely designed to get you to buy crap" - well, and to wear green things, and pinch people, and so forth. This is in parallel with what appears to me to be the co-opting of the Kwanzaa concept by its celebrants in great disregard to whatever fringe goals its founder originally envisioned. At least in Kwanzaa's favor, its celebrants are ostensibly embracing some higher ideals than alcohol consumption.

And just what is meant by celebrate.

I got it from the 2004 National Retail Foundation survey, but I misread the chart (WHOOPS!). In addition, the 2006 NRF survey has been released, so I'll use that to correct my error. It turns out that 6.9 million (2.3%) celebrate Kwanzaa, but 15.9 million (5.3%) celebrate Hanukkah. I don't know what they mean by "celebrate"; they simply asked people which holiday(s) that they celebrated.

At any rate, here's the link:
http://www.nrf.com/content/press/holiday/holiday06_region.htm

Thanks for helping me catch my mistake. I stand by my claim, though, that having a lot of people celebrate a holiday makes it a "real" holiday, not matter how silly it is.

Thats roughly 25% of African Americans and 200+% of American Jews. On the respective holidays.

is now a "real" holiday, aye matey?

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

2006 is done, 2008 is another day and another fight

"The Day of the Martyrdom of the Blessed King Charles I"

...But isn't the only reason Christmas is celebrated at this time of the year because the members of the Christian church placed it there to coincide with the Winter Solstice (and therefore have an easier time converting pagans)?

December 25th was set as Christ's birth within decades of his death according to Roman Historians. I grew up thinking that Christmas was an attempt to co-opt a pagan holiday for Christian conversion. But actually, more and more research and historic documents show it was actually Emperor Aurelius who co-opted Christmas to create the pagan Roman holiday of the "Feast of the Unconquered Son."

Pagans have been celebrating Dec. 25 LONG before the 1st century. (See articles about Saturnalia, Mithra, Birthday of the Unconquerable sun, etc.)

Yeshua was not born on Dec. 25. Shepherds would not be abiding in the fields taking care of their flocks by night in December-not even in Jerusalem.

God has a set of Holy Days (7th Day Sabbath, Passover, Feast of Tabernacles, Pentecost, etc.) See Leviticus 23.

These Holy days were observed by Yeshua, his apostles, and the early church.

MAN, not God, ordained these pagan holidays such as Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day, Sunday, etc.

And maybe replace it with passover ?

Is that your position ?

here and probably in more density and detail than anyone really cares about.

One of the advantages of living in a great country is that if you try hard enough, you will find answers to your questions. I'm sorry to report that some folks haven't been trying hard enough to get the real message, meaning and history of Kwanzaa right.

I invite you to read up at Cobb. I guarantee that if you want to be informed, rather than just 'correct', you will find your moral curiosity amply rewarded.

http://cobb.typepad.com/cobb/kwanzaa/index.html

For those of you who don't really care to know all that much about Kwanzaa but only prejudicially refer to it as a fraud, try to keep your opinions to yourself, lest you break the Ninth Commandment.

I still don't understand what the Holiday means to you.

The seasonal religious holidays have deep meaning for the faithful. For the non faithful they contribute to retail sales. What meaning does Kwanzaa have ?

You said you read the blog.. do you remember this piece? I wrote it last year.

Of all of the Nguzo Saba, none resonates for me as much as Kujichagulia. First of all, it's the most fun to say, and it's the one I remember above all. It's not squishy like some of the others and it resonates with talented as well as conservative folks (not that there's a necessary dichotomy there).

Of course my boy Ray Nagin got in trouble for putting together an emergency plan in advance of Katrina that employed the value of Kujichagulia. He said, we might be first responders, but your primary safety is in your own hands. That sounds like hard medicine to swallow, but should it be? In perhaps the biggest racial bombshell of the year, Kanye West said George W. Bush doesn't care about black poeple. Had Kanye a bit of common sense and some Kujichagulia he would have understood that George W. Bush's care is besides the point. Do for self means care for self. It means not putting your destiny in the hands of others who may or may not have your best interests in mind. It means having your own plan, defining your own place in the scheme of things.

In that meditation penned by the great man (the likes of whom we may never see in my lifetime) Reinhold Neibuhr he wrote:

God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the Courage to change those things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference. --(Reinhold Niebuhr 1892-1971)

We select our destiny according to our ability. We accept help when we need it, but we pick our orientation. We decide which way we must go. Doing for self doesn't mean working alone. It means defining a self and investing it with integrity. It means not letting anyone turn you 'round. it meands killing the little demons inside your head. the demons of self-doubt and inferiorty. It means being proud of determining your own fate and not being afriad to put your name and reputation behind things you believe in. It not about being solopsistic or living in your own little nasty world. It means confronting challenges and staying true to true purposes that are at the heart of yourself.

There are lots of ways of expressing this value. I like what Shakespeare said in Hamlet about being true to yourself such that you can be false to no other man. I like what Nikki Giovanni said in 'Revolutionary Dreams', and I leave it at that:

Revolutionary Dreams

i used to dream militant
dreams of taking
over america to show
these white folks how it should be
done
i used to dream radical dreams
of blowing everyone away with my perceptive powers
of correct analysis
i even used to think i'd be the one
to stop the riot and negotiate the peace
then i awoke and dug
that if i dreamed natural
dreams of being a natural
woman doing what a woman
does when she's natural
i would have a revolution

Sounds like a plan.

Your post is a touching take on the tradition. My best wishes to you for the Holiday season.

Bender: "Oh, I get it, make the robot do all the work!"

Leela: "This is the first actual work you've ever had to do around here."

Bender: "Well, I'm not doing it! It's a robot holiday."

Fry: "Really? Which one?"

Bender: "Only Robannukah, the holiest two weeks on the robot calendar."

Leela: "Aw, come on, Bender. Last month it was Robamadan. And before that, Robanzaa."

Fry: "Man, that one was a blast!"

Bender: "It wasn't just a blast! It was a sacred tribute to my ancestral prototypes...which happened to take the form of a drinking contest."

....and students too. We were all thankful to have the break from school.
How many of my students spent their day reflecting on the Civil Right Struggle? I have my doubts but I have the seen the holiday become more "real" with time. Which is, I suppose, how all holidays become real, over time.

Hmm.. Civil Right Struggle honored by students? Would that be the Fight for your Right to Party?
--
Run like Reagan!

Neil, Right You Are!
And most of my students now are enjoying the Christmas break with no thoughts about the birth of Christ.....but lots of joy over the arrival of the new PlayStation.

I love having to a) take a day of vacation or b) line up some sort of child care.

It ranks just below having to do the same thing for the "NEA" conventions each state has.

January 14th National Dress Up Your Pet Day and we will not have any trouble. My cats look forward to this all year long because a friend dresses her brainless weiner dog up like a hotdog.

You can actually hear my cats salivating.
__________________________________________________________
Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes

is a day established by law on which the courts are not in session and legal process cannot be served. Normally banking transactions cannot be accomplished either, but that can vary by state law. Any other meaning is personal.

There are bazillions of commemorative days established by Congress, the President, state legislatures, governors, mayors, etc. by resolution, ordinance, or proclamation, but they normally have no legal meaning, though some may be considered "holidays" for employment or pay purposes.

I painfully learned more than I ever wanted to know on this subject back in the late eighties. All of our labor agreements had lists of holidays for work and pay purposes and all included the phrase, "and any day established by Presidential proclamation as a holiday," or words to that effect - it's been a while. That language had been adopted from State statute which had in turn been taken from Territorial law.

Alaska does not observe Columbus Day, the federal holiday, but rather observes Seward's Day on October 17th. Many of our employees work on federal installations and we always had to make some arrangement for the two Alaska specific holidays that the fed doesn't observe and the conflict between Columbus Day and Seward's Day. Our labor, trades, and crafts unit got greedy and decided they could have both. Normally, the President issues some sort of statement or proclamation about every holiday and commemorative day and they trotted out the Presidential "proclamation" of Columbus Day. Since it wasn't a State holiday, they'd all worked that day and they wanted their time and a half premium.

I was still pretty new to the arbitration game and this was the first case I'd done with a big price tag and statewide implications. I figured that the fact that the language had been in place in the agreements since the early seventies and had been in Territorial and State law since at least 1913 and had never been given the meaning the union was asserting would be enough. So I trotted out a bunch of veteran managers and HR types to testify that the State had never observed Columbus Day as a holiday for pay purposes, rested, and made an oral closing. The learned arbitrator, the late Dean Carlton Snow of Williamette Law School, handed me my head and handed the State a bill for over half a million dollars in premium pay. Of course, all the other unions that had that language piled on and the price ended up being a couple of million bucks and a large dent in my ego.

We were very deferential to arbitrators in those days, so we just took the hit and paid, but thus began my personal war with activist arbitrators. By the time I was director, almost twenty years and many court cases later, a decision like that would have been summarily appealed to the State courts with a pretty high liklihood of success, and even if the courts upheld it, I'd have claimed there was no money appropriated to pay for it and pitched it to the Legislature to see if they wanted to pay for it - with a pretty good likelihood that they just say no thanks. In fact, after the many appeals and reversals of arbitrators we'd secured in the aftermath of that decision, it is extraordinarily unlikely an arbitrator would have dared to make such a decision here. Needless to say, the offending language has long since been bargained out of all the agreements.

In Vino Veritas

You state that Kwaanza was "just made up"; well, wasn't everything? I mean, Mormonism was "just made" too, but it happens to have been made up long before Kwaanza, which in my book doesn't make it any more or less credible. In addition, many traditions that seem very venerable and legitimate today were really just cobbled together. Bill O'Reilly can complain about the "War on Christmas", but he (perhaps conveniently) forgets that many of the symbols associated with the holiday - holly, mistletoe, a decorated tree - are not of Christian origin. They were co-opted by Christianity in its attempts to convert pagans, but they've garnered legitimacy simply because of their longevity and widespread acceptance.

I'm not defending or attacking Kwaanza or Christmas or Africa or Christianity, but simply pointing out that, given time and persistence, things that may seem at first illegitimate can become quite everyday.

Wearer of Muppetskin and Bearer of No-Nonsense

You state that Kwaanza was "just made up"; well, wasn't everything? I mean, Mormonism was "just made" too, but it happens to have been made up long before Kwaanza, which in my book doesn't make it any more or less credible. In addition, many traditions that seem very venerable and legitimate today were really just cobbled together. Bill O'Reilly can complain about the "War on Christmas", but he (perhaps conveniently) forgets that many of the symbols associated with the holiday - holly, mistletoe, a decorated tree - are not of Christian origin. They were co-opted by Christianity in its attempts to convert pagans, but they've garnered legitimacy simply because of their longevity and widespread acceptance.

I'm not defending or attacking Kwaanza or Christmas or Africa or Christianity, but simply pointing out that, given time and persistence, things that may seem at first illegitimate can become quite everyday.

Wearer of Muppetskin and Bearer of No-Nonsense

on three levels.

First, and most obviously, we don't celebrate a Christmas tree or holly or mistletoe. We celebrate Christmas. There is more than a semantic difference here. Just like we don't celebrate bunnies and chicks and colored eggs, we celebrate Easter.

Secondly, regardless of your views on religion there is a marked difference between Mormonism and Kwanzaa, at least because the founder of the former didn't admit that he made it all up.

Lastly, the very fact something persists doesn't detract from illegitimacy or add to legitimacy. Witchburning, suttee, or Jim Crow as cases in point.

With all due respect, I don't really see how your rebuttal in any way nulls my argument, Streiff. While it's true that Christians don't worship trees, it IS pretty certain that the decorated trees they strongly associate with Christmas were lifted directly from pagan traditions. Despite this, there's a deafening howl of outrage when you hear the term "holiday tree." That's because time and persistance have combined to produce what is now a widely accepted tradition.

Also I make no argument that persistance *necessarily* makes something legitimate, but it seems to me that many of our accepted traditions were things someone "just made up." I don't see why Kwaanza is particularly egregious in this regard, even if its creator freely admits his invention.

I guess I just don't understand the fuss. Personally, I don't care what traditions people observe or religions they worship as long as they make those things their business and no one else's. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, if it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket, I'm not very concerned about it.

Wearer of Muppetskin and Bearer of No-Nonsense

Why is it that you believe you can parse out the pagan mistle toes and trees from Christmas and claim that you are in reality celebrating Christ, yet you don't allow those who celebrate Kwanzaa to parse out the inoble aspects of Kwanzaa's origin.

If anything, Christmas is more of a fraud than Kwanzaa. At least Kwanzaa doesn't purport to be a religious celebration.

Christmas is based on lies. Christ was not born on December 25. December 25 was originally the birthday of the pagan god Mithra. It was called the Saturnalia.

But pastors don't tell that to their congregations. They lie and say that Dec 25 is all about the birth of Christ when it isn't.

Nowhere does Christ command his followers to celebrate his birthday.

Why is it that convert a pagan holiday into a Christian celebration without any biblical authority, but this Christians have the nerve to condemn Kwanzaa?

We should take the beam out of our eye before we remove the speck out of someone else's eye.

You are absolutely right. Christmas is a pagan holiday. No where in the bible are Christians commanded to celebrate Christ's birthday.

Christmas is a pagan holiday.

I am a Christian. I do not celebrate Kwanzaa because I don't
know enough about it to condemn or adopt it. However, I think that you are hypocritical to condemn Kwanzaa and uphold pagan Christmas.

Christmas is a pagan holidy which Yeshua of Nazereth (Jesus) never commanded his followers to keep. No where in the Bible does God or Jesus command their followers to celebrate Jesus' birthday. The Bible does not give the date of Jesus' birth.

Jesus was not born on December 25. He was probably born in the Fall. About 300 years after the death of Christ, church leaders picked December 25 as the date to celebrate Jesus' birth.

The reason why they picked Dec. 25 is because pagan cultures had already celebrated Dec. 25 as a holiday for sun-worshippers. Dec. 25 was known as the Saturnalia. Their is a pagan god named Mithra whose birthday was celebrated on December 25.

When the Catholic church started to baptize former pagans into their religion, they found that these people had refused to give up their pagan customs and holidays. So the church allowed these people to maintain their pagan customs with a Christian name to it.

The yule log, the Christms tree, the mistle toe, etc., are all pagan symbols.

If certain black people are socialists for celebrating Kwanzaa, then you all are a sun-worshipper for celebrating Christmas. (And that also goes for pagan Easter).

The Catholic church over the years has killed more people than this "black radical" who founded Kwanzaa will ever kill. Jesus and the Apostles did not keept Christmas. The Catholic churuch has killed other Christians who didn't agree with Christmas, Easter, Sunday v. Saturday for the Sabbath, the trinity, and other doctrines. Yet, so called Christians celebrate these pagan holidays set up by the Catholic church without question.

Guess we have to send out the Jesuit ninja death squad now. Out of curiousity, do you prefer

1) Garroting with a rosary
2) Drowning in a butt of holy water (Lourdes and Guadalupe available, upon request)
3) Suffocation via poisoned incense

or (this one takes extra notice)

4) Being strapped with your ears three inches from an enhanced cathedral pipe organ playing three full days' worth of all those Jesuit hymns from the 1970s

...for your execution? It's a VatII thing, you understand: we're trying to be a kinder, gentler End Times Whore of Babylon mega-Satanic conspiracy to you poor heretics.

Moe

PS: Nuns extra. Particularly if they're dressed... (swallowing heavily) ...like Carmelites.

PPS: Alternatively, apologize for being a religious bigot and we'll let you live.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

we would Watch him swing from the Tower. IYGMM.
_______________________________
If "pro" is the opposite of "con", what is the opposite of "progress"?

The facts speak for themselves:

The Roman Church and its Protestant daughters killed Christian religious dissenters such as the Waldenses, Albigenses, Bogards, Bogimils, Donatists, Henricians, and Anabaptists, and various 7th Day Christians.

Yahweh says that the 7th Day of the Week, not Sunday, is the Sabbath. See Exodus 20.

According to Wikipedia: The Waldensians or Vaudois are a Christian denomination believing in poverty and austerity, founded around 1173, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the literal interpretation of the scriptures. Declared heretical, the movement was brutally persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church during the 12th and 13th centuries and nearly totally destroyed, but the Waldensian Church survives to this day.

John James, a 7th Day preacher, was pulled off his pulpit by Sunday-keeping christians and killed.

William Tyndale, a former Catholic priest, was martyred by the religious and civil leaders because he translated the bible into English.

See these links:

http://www.nisbett.com/sabbath/history/hos26.htm

http://www.seventh-day-baptist.org.au/library/books/james.htm

http://www.jlfoundation.net/sunday.html

http://www.williamtyndale.com/0welcomewilliamtyndale.htm

At first I was enjoying the rantings of the loony cultist in our midst. Take a sprinkling of truth and a bunch of nuttiness and you get a Tom Cruise or something simular. Fun fun fun.

But this is getting out of the "conservative news and commentary sphere" and turning into a bash tradtional/historical Christianity rant by some poor cultist with a grudge.

It's not my call, but any dude that takes an obscure name and adds a number to it (Great, now we have to drag down "Logan's Run" too) and writes this trash seem to merit at least a warning, if not the old heave ho. Am I right?

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" - Defoe

on "The Sabbath" when you are clearly supposed to be resting and doing no "work" - assuming of course knocking on doors and distributing drivel doesn't count as "work" - do you have some sort of dispensation from your leadership to educate us, or are you getting 72 virgins when you finally get harpooned? Again.

And since it's "again", do you get 144 virgins?
_______________________________
If "pro" is the opposite of "con", what is the opposite of "progress"?

an actual documented history of Christmas.

By the way, dipstick, the Mass of Christ is to celebrate the birth of Christ, it isn't supposed to be Christ's birthday. There is more than a semantic difference there.

December 25 was originally a pagan holiday dedicated to the Sun god. It was often called, "Saturnalia." The pagan god, "Mitra" was said to have been born on Dec. 25. The Roman Church later adopted Dec. 25 as the "Mass of Christ."

According to the History Channel:
"By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated."

Encyclopedia Britannica, 1946 edition, has this: "Christmas (i.e., the Mass of Christ) .... Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church ...."

The Encyclopedia Americana, 1944 edition, says: "Christmas .... It was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth ...."

Jeremiah 10:2-4 -Thus saith Yahweh, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Deuteronomy 12:29-32 -When Yahweh thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto Yahweh thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

For more information on the origin of Christmas, go to:

THE PLAIN TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTMAS by Herbert W. Armstrong
http://www.coghomeschool.org/site/cog_archives/booklets/The%20Plain%20Tr...

HISTORY OF CHRISTMAS (from the History Channel)
http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content...

CHRISTMAS, THE GREATEST STORY NEVER TOLD, by Harold Cormany
http://www.heraldministries.com/chrisart.html

_______________________________
If "pro" is the opposite of "con", what is the opposite of "progress"?

They might delete my account again. I don't know why bringing out the facts would warrant my account being blocked.

The jokes about actually martyring me are far more offensive than anything I wrote.

If you all are going to be followers of Christ, why don't you celebrate the holy days that he celebrated such as the 7th Day Sabbath, Passover, the Feast of Tabernacles, and Pentecost.

Yeshua and his apostles and the early church celebrated these days until men such as Constantine and church leaders changed these days.

http://www.cornerstone1.org/easter3.htm

The left insists there is no war on Christmas.

How much can you get for a 1944 Encyclopedia Brittanica on ebay?

about your "martyrdom", hopefully you will be so offended you don't come back.

If you want to come and post crap like this at least have the courtesy to build up some credibility first. You drop in out of nowhere and drop off posts that require bleach to clean up my monitor and then you have the audacity to get huffy. Heh.

Tell you what, go away. Tell your co-religionists - whoever they may be - that you were persecuted by a bunch of "so-called" conservatives who aren't interested in the "truth". Or whatever. Just go away. We won't care what you say about us. Even though I don't speak for The Management here, I thing you can take that to the bank.
_______________________________
If "pro" is the opposite of "con", what is the opposite of "progress"?

...that I didn't think that we had actually banned the guy on the first go-round.

Since rectified, mind you.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

I agree with you that there is a world out there that needs aid and comfort. They need Yeshua (Christ). The abortion of millions of babies and the cultural decline of our nation and others is indeed terrible.

However, there are many black brethren out there who agree with you and other Christian conservatives on many issues such as abortion, gay marriage, welfare v. work, etc.

There is a strong social conservative strand in the black community as well as the Jewish community. When Senator Harry Ried voted against Pres. Bush's proposed defense of marriage amendment, there were a group of black ministers and other churchgoers who were just heated. They were really upset at Reid. A black community group called Churches in Las Vegas really came down hard on Reid. These group of black Christians are potential political allies of Christian Republicans and conservatives.

But the Christian right is going to do nothing but alienate the black electorate if they go around criticizing and condemning people who celebrate Kwanzaa.

Why pick on Kwanzaa? When out of wedlock births, HIV/AIDS, crime, and a Hip/Hop gangster culture plague the black community, I think it is a waste of time to attack Kwanzaa.

People like Ann Coulter and other white conservatives (and even black conservatives) look like they are mean-spirited when they attack Kwanzaa.

Among Kwanzaa celebrators are some potential good black conservative allies. But the religious interolance of the Christian right might alienate some of these voters.

I am black. But sometimes I can't go along with the religious right. If they achieve their goal of forming a "Christian nation," which form of Christianity will dominate? Will we then become a "Baptist Nation" or "Catholic Nation" or a "Presbyterian Nation." (By the way, that might be the reason why so many Jewish Americans also vote Democratic)

What place would I as a religious minority have in your "Christian nation?" Will I be forced to keep the 1st day of the week as a sabbath? Would religious minorities such as Mormons, 7th Day Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others have a disadvantage?

Perhaps I did get off track when I brought up the pagan origin of Christmas. But the point I was trying to make is that it is unfair to condemn those who celebrate Kwanzaa as being socialist or black seperatists when that is probably not their true intent.

They are no more socialists or radicals for celebrating Kwanzaa than you guys are sun-worshippers for celebrating Christams.

Emalone7, if you're bathing in the oppressive spiritual legacy of Herbert W. Armstrong, get yourself out of that sewer now for the health of your soul. We've got a world out there that needs the gospel message - a world in which dictators murder millions of their own people, terrorists invoke their God in their proclaimed worship of death as they slaughter innocents, and even in our own country where thousands of innocents are killed before they see the light of day.

We need to comfort the afflicted, bind up the wounds of those battered in spirit of body. Rather than wrap yourself up in legalistic debates with other Christians about the origins of holidays or Sabbatarian minutia, figure who are the real enemies of Christ (for starters, it's not the Catholic Church) and direct your energies towards making a change in the world.

I agree with you that there is a world out there that needs aid and comfort. They need Yeshua (Christ). The abortion of millions of babies and the cultural decline of our nation and others is indeed terrible.

However, there are many black brethren out there who agree with you and other Christian conservatives on many issues such as abortion, gay marriage, welfare v. work, etc.

There is a strong social conservative strand in the black community as well as the Jewish community. When Senator Harry Ried voted against Pres. Bush's proposed defense of marriage amendment, there were a group of black ministers and other churchgoers who were just heated. They were really upset at Reid. A black community group called Churches in Las Vegas really came down hard on Reid. These group of black Christians are potential political allies of Christian Republicans and conservatives.

But the Christian right is going to do nothing but alienate the black electorate if they go around criticizing and condemning people who celebrate Kwanzaa.

Why pick on Kwanzaa? When out of wedlock births, HIV/AIDS, crime, and a Hip/Hop gangster culture plague the black community, I think it is a waste of time to attack Kwanzaa.

People like Ann Coulter and other white conservatives (and even black conservatives) look like they are mean-spirited when they attack Kwanzaa.

Among Kwanzaa celebrators are some potential good black conservative allies. But the religious interolance of the Christian right might alienate some of these voters.

I am black. But sometimes I can't go along with the religious right. If they achieve their goal of forming a "Christian nation," which form of Christianity will dominate? Will we then become a "Baptist Nation" or "Catholic Nation" or a "Presbyterian Nation." (By the way, that might be the reason why so many Jewish Americans also vote Democratic)

What place would I as a religious minority have in your "Christian nation?" Will I be forced to keep the 1st day of the week as a sabbath? Would religious minorities such as Mormons, 7th Day Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others have a disadvantage?

Perhaps I did get off track when I brought up the pagan origin of Christmas. But the point I was trying to make is that it is unfair to condemn those who celebrate Kwanzaa as being socialist or black seperatists when that is probably not their true intent.

They are no more socialists or radicals for celebrating Kwanzaa than you guys are sun-worshippers for celebrating Christams.

 
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