We can’t trust ’em.

What madness is this.

By Paul J Cella Posted in Comments (127) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

From a recent report we learn this:

Thousands of students from Saudi Arabia are enrolling on college campuses across the United States this semester under a new educational exchange program brokered by President Bush and Saudi King Abdullah.

The program will quintuple the number of Saudi students and scholars in the United States by the academic year’s end. And big, public universities from Florida to Oregon are in a fierce competition for their tuition dollars.

From another, this:

In 2005, more people from Muslim countries became legal permanent United States residents — nearly 96,000 — than in any year in the previous two decades. More than 40,000 of them were admitted last year, the highest annual number since the terrorist attacks, according to data on 22 countries provided by the Department of Homeland Security.

In the run-up to this November’s election we have heard a lot of exhortation to the effect that the Democrats cannot be trusted. I agree: they cannot be. Last week I added my own exhortation (of sorts) to this chorus. But I think we have to go further than this. The Democrats cannot be trusted; and neither can this Republican administration. The reports noted above disclose at best acquiescence in, or what is much worse, the positive promotion of a policy that is simple pulverizing madness. Is it necessary to lay out the plain sense of this argument yet again? Very well. It consists in three facts, and a conclusion from those facts that is, again, madness. (1) Most of the September 11 hijackers were Saudis, some of those Saudi students. (2) All of them were Muslims and immigrants. (3) Our ability to screen immigrants a hopeless muddle. Therefore our policy should contemplate ever more Saudi student visas, and ever more Muslim immigrants.

That is madness. Its promoters cannot be trusted.


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We can’t trust ’em. 127 Comments (0 topical, 127 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »

The appalling lack of sophisticated, Western-educated Muslims in the Middle East has been badly exacerbated by the post 9/11 drop in Arab college students in the U.S. If we don't believe that getting more educated, open-minded thinkers over there helps us, then a suspect we are doomed already. Part of winning this war will be defeating the overwhelming ignorance that has developed in the Arab world these past 40 years. Many, many of the reformers and dissidents in Iran went to college in the US before the revolution, for example.

I understand your reticence, but your logic here is dangerous.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

Your faith in the American education system is rather touching. I do not share it. I've been on record for a complete cessation of all Muslim immigration for well over a year now.

So far the conversion of pious Muslims away from their faith has proven a particularly difficult task (perhaps in part because such conversions are, on strict Islamic grounds, just cause for execution).

The example of Britain is instructive: in the very cradle of parliamentary democracy, home-ground Muslims terrorists have prove quite readily resistant to the inducements of Western wealth and freedom, and gone on to ply their grim trade against their countrymen.

_________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

He really has hit it on the head. The vast majority of people who actually run the KSA are moderates who have PhDs from the USA. Quite a few have American wives and are extremely progressive (for Saudis). You clearly haven't spent much time (probably any time) in the Middle East. The people that NotSoBlue is talking about are the people who are keeping the whole are from exploding. Your position is not one that has a toehold in the real world.

And I'm heading back this fall.

Suffice it to say I find your assessment of the Saudis to be risible in the extreme.

We are but warriors for the working-day.

You've never run into the educated elite that I describe? Seriously? Wow, thank God for Spec Ops who actually have to go and establish rapport with a wide variety of people. There is a reason why special operations actually spearheads our international policy. Laugh all you'd like my friend, me and my brothers will continue to do the real work.

does not trump the teachings of the Koran and the friendly representaives of the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and the Punishment, oops Prevention, of Vice. Besides, ever watch these so called moderates when they are loose in the south of France?


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

We don't need to convert the radicals as much as we need to outnumber them. The trend curve is moving in the wrong direction currently.

As for the British, they, like the French, have failed to integrate the Muslim community into society. Not sure we can solve that one here, either, but it would be very smart to try.

I guess I am the way I am on this issue for the same reason I'm tolerant on gay marriage: I know American Muslims (one Pakistani born and another Iranian born) who can be part of the solution. The world needs more of these. They simply can't get there in their home countries.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

We would be smart to avoid the conflagation that is ready to explode in Muslims districts all over Europe.

In any case, getting them to integrate will take the sort of hard-nosed attitude you have in essence renounced. People forget that integration or assimilation has always been a painful experience for immigrants. Do you think we have the will to inflict that process on Muslim immigrants? And if you do, how would you suggest we go about it?

__________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

We digest any and everything. We always come out ahead better for it.

I'd like to think my own ancestry reflects this. I would be willing to bet that there are very few purebreds reading this website.

are choosing not to integrate.I have been to the middle east and thier grand schem has never to integrate but to overwhelm and take over. Thier only purpose is to out number us.
"Peace had a chance"

Please tell us what approach will work: The French have tried colorblindness and rigidly enforced secularism, the British multiculturalism. Both have failed. What makes us think we will do better? Besides, in the case of Britain, how is such as thing as assimilation supposed to occur when 55% of British Pakistanis are marrying their first cousins? Such is the very definition of a closed-off, non-assimilating, non-integrating population. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1298135,curpg-1.cms
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Anyone who claims that globalization is a conservative process is either a liar or a fool. - James Kurth

We have millions of Muslim expatriates here and they are far more part of America than Muslims in either France or Great Britain are part of their respective cultures. Clearly, though, we need to stop "respecting diversity" if we want this to continue.

My largest point here is that this is all very complicated. Wave of hand measures, in either direction, just ain't gonna get it done. I just fear that if we do as Paul suggests that we might as well go all the way and flatten the entire region with nukes -- tomorrow. If culture and influence can't ever change those societies, that it's going to be way too hard to kill just all of the bad guys.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

I just fear that if we do as Paul suggests that we might as well go all the way and flatten the entire region with nukes -- tomorrow.

Please tell me where the statement "keep Muslims out of our country" can be followed in logic to "flatten the entire region with nukes." Please show me how a policy of separating ourselves from the Islamic world can be taken as a prelude to mass murder on an enormous scale. If you cannot, kindly retract your despicable calumny.

_________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

Is a very likely prelude to mass slaughter. Please, look up "the three conjectures." I mean, if the savages don't realize what a favor we're doing them by selflessly striving to bring them all the blessings of "shining liberty," and repay our generosity with bombs, it's obvious that they are an obstacle to progress, and must be plowed under like poorly-dressed, inarticulate homeowners in the way of a new condo development. The region must be made safe for modernity, don't you see?
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Anyone who claims that globalization is a conservative process is either a liar or a fool. - James Kurth

And I'm not suggesting that you are suggesting anything of the kind. I'm just trying to walk through a thought experiment.

Right now, with the only education available to young Muslim men being learning how to read the Koran in ancient Arabic, the jihadi cancer can spread via the mullahs and mosques pratically unabated. Enlightenment is a critical part of the solution (IMHO). Western education, while presenting every risk you suggest, is part of the answer.

The Islamist movement is a cancer, and the more we learn about how bad this cancer is already, the less optimistic I am about trying to excise the problem from the outside. Somehow, we need to inject an antibody into those societies.

My comment refers to the fact that without those antibodies, the disease will grow and spread, until it kills the patient. When I say we might as well nuke them all now, I'm basically saying that without some sort of injection of post-13th century thinking, the cause may already be lost. If that's true, the only way to save ourselves may be to kill everyone there, as it would be even tougher than it is now to find and kill just the bad guys.

So what you're hearing from me is frustration -- not with you per se -- but with the intractable situation.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

but the 9/11 perpetrators were educated in the West, had long exposure to western civilization and still chose to kill thousands in the name of Allah. So much for the ameliorating influences of some 'enlightened western education.'


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

I suspect they were committed jihadis before they went for the education in the first place. I agree wholeheartedly that no amount of Western society is never going to "flip" guys like that. My thought is that we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. That is, that in order to keep out the minority of cynical jihadis we are also denying enlightenment to the more open minded -- leaving just the mullahs to educate them.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

they don't want our enlightenment? Who can blame them if they do not? Our enlightenment has given us a pornographic pop culture of unutterable flippancy and ignorance. We do not teach our children what is actually worth teaching in American history -- remember the poll several years ago that revealed that most Ivy League students could not accurately identify the decade (maybe it was even the century) in which the Civil War was fought? -- but we happily saturate them in facile nihilism, in victimization, in sexual perversion, in decadence and apathy.

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And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

...needs fixing regardless of what we do about the Middle East.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

Yes it does, but don't you see that the extreme decadence of our culture presents something of a conundrum for those who endeavor to export it?

_____________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

But I think maybe you're not giving us enough credit as a society. People who "get to know" America understand that we are a diverse society, where there are mostly moral people. I think they appreciate our tolerance. I have Muslim friends who are quite religious and get along here quite nicely.
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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

(1) Your faith in Western education is, in my view, foolishly naive, both about the vigor of Muslim radicalism and its resistance to any "antidote," and about the nature of Western education today. Western education like that of Yale, where a former minister of the Taliban was invited as an honored lecturer? Or like that of Harvard, which invited the former Iranian President to speak and still forbids the ROTC on campus? These are our highest institutions of learning.

(2) I don't share your despair, which derives from this false dichotomy you have set up: a dichotomy suggested by the statement that "without some sort of injection of post-13th century thinking, the cause may already be lost" which means that "the only way to save ourselves may be to kill everyone there." Nonsense. Our survival does not hinge on our ability to convert the Islamic world to our way of life, to our secularism and worldiness. It simply does not. It consist in the survival of our culture here in the United States; and if we determine that, as things stand now, Islam appears impenetrable by our inducements to worldily riches and enjoyments, then we need not rush off to the lunatic conclusion that we must therefore annihilate them. There are, manifestly, much less drastic steps to take -- one of which is a policy of net out-migration, with an eye on total separation, of Muslims in America. Good Lord man: how can so many people be blind to these simple points?

With all due respect, how can I trust the judgment of someone who is more prepared to contemplate nuclear annihilation of an entire people than separation of that people from us?

_________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

and placed, ten commandments style, in the middle of the Capitol Dome, with a smaller copy, say ten tons, in the Oval Office.

"Our survival does not hinge on our ability to convert the Islamic world to our way of life, to our secularism and worldiness."

-------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who claims that globalization is a conservative process is either a liar or a fool. - James Kurth

Islam appears impenetrable by our inducements to worldily riches and enjoyments

Hardly.

A slow process, yes. Non-existant, not by a long shot.

Look at some of the UAE countries. Overwhelmingly Islamic majority, yet they have adopted a secular culture (at least in comparison to other Islamic cultures). They have a free market, education system, modern economy, etc.

Rather interesting point, The current leader of Dubai attended Cambridge University, sent there by his father who revolutionized the UAE.

"The Babel fish could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D." - HHG2TG

... that the transmission of our way of life, sunken as it now is in decadence and excess, is of a higher order of importance than the lives of those Americans who will perish as the holocaust of the particular, to the end that the System, the Idea, may be perpetuated.

It is not my intention to be flippant or dismissive, but I'll not consent to have my children (potentially) sacrificed to the glories of secular democratic capitalism. The very suggestion is an unspeakable obscenity.

My harp is turned to mourning, and my organ shall speak with the voice of them that weep. Spare me, O Lord, for my days are truly as nothing.

We need to protect and defend our culture regardless of what the Muslims do or don't do. In that sense, it's no different than the Romans and the Huns.

Did you see that Ahmadinejad just ordered the firing of "liberal" professors at Iranian universities? It just feels like the hole is getting deeper.

But I'm more than willing to admit that I might be wrong here. I just get queasy at the thought of lessening access to independent thinking in that part of the world. Despite their hatred of us, it wasn't all that long ago that Middle Eastern families were sending tons of kids here to get educated. As noted in other places in the thread, the opposition movements in the Middle East are chock full of these folks.

As for the idea of faith in western education, I know what you're driving at, but even our moonbattiest professors have nothing on the mullahs.

(And FWIW, I'd argue that you're allowed to go to extremes when doing thought experiments. I don't plan on nuking anyone any time soon.)

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

I'd argue that you're allowed to go to extremes when doing thought experiments.

Alright then. How about this thought experiment: No Muslims in America = no threat of Muslim terror. This so-called extreme makes you queasy, even in abstract, but nuclear holocaust does not?

even our moonbattiest professors have nothing on the mullahs

Even some of our respectable professors, cited even by the President's advisers, have a long trail of apologia for Islamists.

________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." I think that the jihadis will find a way to get here, even with tighter borders. I suspect that law-abiding muslims will simply stay home.

And on reflection I'm guess I'm not really suggesting that students come here to pick up ideology. I think infecting the Middle East with better capitalists will have a much more far-reaching impact (and yes, I realize that my earlier posts in the thread don't really reflect this). They need more doctors, engineers and architects over there.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

    sophisticated, Western-educated Muslims

You mean like Mohammed Atta?

Drink Good Coffee. You can sleep when you're dead.

I just happen to believe our way of life is superior, and that isolating Muslims from the US can't help the Muslim world's pathetic lack of modernization.

We'd have to believe that the Atta's are a minority, and then try to weed them out.

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"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

Dr. al-Zawahiri is a US educated medical doctor. I'd say he was adequately exposed to US culture.

The fallacy of this argument is that much of the islamofacist leadership is comprised of educated (many in Western countries), well off, upper middle class men. The bombers are typically peasants.

How does your argument account for the terrorists of 7/7 in the UK who are 2nd generation? Adam Gadahn? John Walker Linde? Muezzin calls in Hamtrammk? Are these examples of integration?

Perhaps you have an answer to the rampant honor killings in the UK and Europe? What about violence against non-muslims in Sweden? More examples of 'how we just don't understand them' or the need for even greater tolerance?

At what point do you, and I mean you personally, determine that the effort to integrate a culture so alien to our own is not possible. A culture that openly states it is superior to all others, and whose aspiration it is to replace the host culture with its own. Indonesia comes to mind. So do the Paris suburbs. And Malmo Sweden.

I ask for a specific 'line in the sand' because I would like to know if you have a sense of self/societal preservation or if you are willing to allow a hostile culture its own space to flourish unchecked. Nothing personal, but I really want to know your limits on this.

but you're incorrect about Zawahiri. He was educated in Cairo. Egypt, not Illinois.

I think you're confusing him with Sayyid Qutb.

I thought I had read that he was US educated.

From Globalsecurity.org:

Born on 19 June 1951, Zawahiri grew up in a fairly well-to-do family outside of Cairo. His parents were both of distinguished Egyptian families, although they were not exceptionally wealthy. He was raised in a religious manner, but his parents were not exceptionally pious.

Expose them to any culture youre going to get a thousand different results.

IMNHO our culture is pretty good. If you want to argue any other culture on the planet is better youre probably wrong. Why ? Because we have allready stolen the good parts. Matter of fact we rob other cultures so effectively that there are large parts of our culture that the people we stole from will say they are ours.

So yes exposure to our culture isn't going to stop a nut from being a nut. If that was the case we wouldn't have any nuts in our society. But, we do manage to present an alternative an option which alot of people find desirable.

As to your arguments about the unassimilated european muslims, dont compare the imigrant experience in europe and america. My fathers family had been here since before the country was a country. My mothers fled the pale of settlement in the 1890's and I have the paperwork from ellis island documenting it. My mother was second generation and you would never have known it.

Be thankfull we have the ability to assimilate that we do. I for one would not be happy eating british food, english automobiles or dentistry just to name a few. I would really hate to be eating my own families national cuisines but thats another story.

No one disputes that the Atta Boys are a minority, even a tiny minority. The problem is, we don't know how to weed them out, and they kill 3,000 people at a crack. If that happens once every five years, I suppose people will put up with it. If it ever starts happening once a quarter, they won't. If it happens even once with a nuke or a ton of cyanide piped into a high-rise, all friendliness will be put on hold until we're real sure this is over.

You have to recognize that for some people, the friendliness already on hold. Today you can argue with them. Be glad, and hope it lasts.

Drink Good Coffee. You can sleep when you're dead.

1.6 Billion Muslims in the world, according to some estimates.

Only 1% support Jihad -- that's 16 million.
Only 0.25% support Jihad -- that's 4 million.
Only 0.1% support Jihad -- that's 1.6 million.

That's alot of virgins (72x per) in the afterlife.

Took all of 19 to bring down the Towers. I'll give you 10x for logistical support and financing, point still stands.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

you can believe anything you want, you live in a free country. But believing something does not make it so.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

...studying, I kid you not, urban planning.

Fat lot of good a Western Education did for his worldview.

Your faith in the efficacy on Jihadis-to-be of the Western self-loathing that passes these days for a higher education in the Arts and Sciences is touching, and rather naive.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

We keep all Muslims out, regardless of origin, due to 9/11 and the other terrorist activities over the past couple decades. Fine. Who else?
Do we ban the Irish, due to the IRA? No one is arguing that some members of this Arab Muslim demographic may want to commit crimes, but a) how far doe we take this and b) for how long? When do we open our borders again and engage with the world?

Last, we have seen how well immigration restrictions work with the southern border. If we try to shut them all out, only the terrorists will get in. We lose both ways.

...and when people in Dublin dance in the streets in celebration, then maybe we'll have what-if's to discuss.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

The IRA is not blowing up buildings in the US. If they were then yes, we should stop the Irish from coming here.

We do not need to "open our borders" in order to "engage the world". We have engaged the world for most our history without encouraging the world to come and settle in our country.

we have seen how well immigration restrictions work with the southern border.

What does this mean? We have done exactly nothing to restrict immigration on our southern border.

...detonating themselves at the Food Court, either. Nor of hate speech and incitements to murder and sedition emanating from the pulpit at Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe, unlike, from, say Finsbury Park Mosque.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

before I went out on a limb with

Nor of hate speech and incitements to murder and sedition emanating from the pulpit at Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

...to "sons of pigs and monkeys", then fine by me.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

that sanctuary for illegal aliens, or any criminal for that matter, is not mentioned in the Constitution of the United States, or that of the several states, and is not contained in the Code of Federal Regulations. And I wasn't referring to "sanctuary" anyway. Iwas referring to the extremists of La Raza, MEChA, et al, and their supporters, some of whom are unfortunately members of the clergy.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

The exact opposite is the case. For most of our history we have not engaged the world but have encouraged them to settle here. Matter of fact when we havent been able to get them to settle we drag them over.

Heres a list roughly chrological.
1. Indentured Europeans
1A. European debtors
1C. European Criminals
2. African slaves
3. The Chinese
4. The Irish
5. The Italians
6. Europeans of slightly odd religions (Dissenters,Jews, various protestants).
7. Anyone of a slightly odd religous belief (Note we are much more prolific at generating slighty odd religions than everywhere else)
8. The Central and eastern europeans (brought over by railroad companies so they would have towns to stop at)
9. Mexican and central american labor
10 Cubans (invited over to show we were better than castro)
11 Cuban prisoners (brought over to show Jimmy was an idiot)
12 Indians to demonstrate that we need to do something about the teachers union

Thats just off the top of my head.

would contradict your point, as it is:

Last, we have seen how well immigration restrictions work with the southern border. If we try to shut them all out, only the terrorists will get in. We lose both ways.

Let us pretend the Bush Administration has not failed miserably on the southern border and there are actual restrictions rather than a floodgate there. This would mean that restrictions result in more terrorists.

I really hope I misread you.

do not teach that Jews are the sons of monkeys. Sermons in Irish churches do not call for the death of the infidel.

This problem is without comparison in the history of this country. Besides we have prohibited the entry of "classes" of people in the past, and for that matter we do today. Avowed communists were once banned from entering, people with tuberculosis were banned.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

the Catholic Church was on record as teaching the democracy and religious pluralism were heretical and wicked. Heck, for a while the Church even opposed railroads and smallpox innoculations. We may tut-tut our forebearers for their anti-Catholic bigotry, but they were not entirely without basis in fact.
Yet to some extent it is also true that by exposure to the American order of things (among other influences), the Roman Catholic Church did ultimately reconsider its position.
Also, in the Cold War, exposure to the West did help counter Communist propaganda in eastern Euroep and even in Mao's China (which is surely the most radical state ever known, with the sole exception of Pol Pot's Cambodia). True we had some trouble with spies and provacateurs, but on the whole the long term effect was positive.
Whatever is wrong in Europe (and there is much) Muslims in this country don't want to found a new Caliphate on the banks of the Potomac. They want to own gas stations and C-stores and get rich charging the rubes outrageous prices-- and that is something the Middle East could use more of, good old fashioned capitalism. And I don't se that it should be so hard to weed out the trouble-makers: they have radical records a mile long and can hardly shut up preaching Jihad. Those types we definitely should bar.

Arab civilization would bestride the world like the Colossus. It's not, and it doesn't.
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Anyone who claims that globalization is a conservative process is either a liar or a fool. - James Kurth

While history is very instructive, we in the West live in the hear and now, in the early part of the 21st Century --- not so much of Islam.

Second, there is a vast difference between the Church teaching that pluralism was heretical and Islam teaching that Jews are the 'sons of pigs and monkeys' and that is not only OK but required to kill them and other infidels.

As to Muslims in this country don't want ot found a new Caliphate on the banks of the Potomac ask Hooper and his buddies at CAIR.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

I'm all for exacerbating the global brain drain to our benefit (tsk, tsk, so selfish, yes I know), but this IS madness.

Why don't we reinstate Visa Express while we're at it? That way the means of entry used by ALL the hijackers will still be around, eh?
--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

Neil. If memory serves, and it may not, the State Department under Colin Powell did not even dismantle this timebomb in Saudi Arabia until sometime in 2002 or 2003.

Having not seen the actual agreement, I do wonder if there is not some sort of screening arrangement on the Saudis part, since it would not be in the Saudi best interest for any of these students to go rogue.

Apparently an aptitude for aviation.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

Education is the key out of poverty and ignorance. We should welcome these people with open arms.

Please, let's drop the "povetry" line.

they can stay with you.
"Peace had a chance"

set up more universities for their own people, they've got plenty of our money to do it with.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

What would be the product of such a university ? A well educated fanatic maybe ?

Personally I am always happy when someone wants to buy American.

What will they learn in the American university system? That America is an evil oppressor which exploits the poor and downtrodden of the world for its own selfish gain? That it is a warlike power which imposes its will on the rest of the world by force?

If you want people to think well of America, keep them as far away as possible from our system of "higher learning". All they will learn there is how to further justify violence against us.

well-educated fanatics rather than American and European taxpayers, as has been the past pattern.

the American universities are falling all over themselves to woo these "students." They are going out of their way to make them feel "at home." Rather than inculcating them with America they are creating little slices of Saudi Arabia in Tallahassee and Athens GA, and Austin.


John
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True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

Rejecting them from our culture is no way to see our ideals become adopted.

"The Babel fish could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D." - HHG2TG

Tell me: just why would a jihadist be interested in adopting our ideals. He finds them contemptible in the extreme.

The fact that somewhere between 15% and 30% of Muslims support the jihadists does not deter you? You are prepared to pay American blood in order for some speculative notion of "our ideals" being adopted.

_______________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

I guess I don't come from the camp where Muslim/Arab = Jihadist. I'd imagine they try to screen all immigrants as best they can. Just because they have a certain ethnicity, would be no reason for them to be automatically refused. Especially those that go back to their respective countries to a position of prominence. If they bring an appreciation for education and freedom, all the better.

You are prepared to pay American blood in order for some speculative notion of "our ideals" being adopted.
Once again, unless there is some reason to believe otherwise, I don't assume every Arab has the intent of destroying our country.

"The Babel fish could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D." - HHG2TG

It always very convenient for your side of this argument to elide the distinction between religion and race. On examination, of course, it's shown to be merely a cheap debating tactic.

So I say the fact that profess a certain religion is a very good reason for them to be automatically refused. Or, as we discussed here last week, at least they should be subjected to much more invasive scrutiny, up to and including the requirement that they renounce jihad (in other words, a loyalty oath) on pain of prejury.

________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

I couldn't give a fig whether they ever adopt "our values and ideals", whatever that means in the 21st century. I'm only concerned that they not be afforded an opportunity to kill me, and my family. what follows is that they ought to be 'over there', and not here.

My harp is turned to mourning, and my organ shall speak with the voice of them that weep. Spare me, O Lord, for my days are truly as nothing.

I was going to say the same thing. I do not care one bit what they do in their own countries, and can not condemn vituperatively enough the blasphemous notion that it is America's vocation to create world-wide era of "shining liberty." It's not worth the bones of one Californian corporal. Keep them over there, and us over here.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who claims that globalization is a conservative process is either a liar or a fool. - James Kurth


John
---------
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

You have been attacked by an Arab ?

I want these people here spending money. When my alumni association calls to put the bite on me I want to ask what they are doing to get new students.

I want these people here spending money.

It makes you sound like a prostitute.

... or a mercantilist, which is a problem because we fought the American Revolution in part against that kind of economic thinking.

--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

We have a run of republicans upset about making a profit. Are you certain the redstate is for republican not another red ?

I'll take all these in one shot.

Everything you do in life is costs and benefits. I don't know how many arabs have come to this country but I am fairly confidant its in the millions. so out of millions we have had 100 maybe 200 try to commit a terrorist act ? Personally my odss are a bit worse when I get on I-95 to go someplace.

Ok on the business end of the subject. Yes Middle Eastern Culture is renowned for hard bargaining. I look around and think yes we must be really bad at that kind of thing seeing as we are the greatest trading nation the world has ever seen.

To Mr. Stevens Mercantilism refers to captive entities which are forced to buy your goods. What I was refering to was someone making a free choice to buy an American product. You may not appreciate the value of what American universities produce but these people are voting with their wallets.

Before 9/11 I did not cower in my bed. During the cold war I wasn't freaking out that russians were attending my university. I wasn't upset that we were selling blue jeans and pepsi to the Russians and were involved in active trade with communist block nations. I understood it was one of the roads to victory.

I was listening to Laura Ingraham this morning. She had a piece on an arab nation outlawing dogs and cats as pets. If you think that a stay in america isn't going to make any reasonable person look a little askance at that kind of behavior think again.

Our culture is our ultimate weapon totalitarianism of any sort. The fascists outlawed our music our dancing our literature. The communists did the same. The islamofascists are at it again. What do they all have in common ?

THEYR'E LOSERS

They don't have to come here to buy our products, though. You seem to be ignoring the concept of trade.
--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

Well not unless its the university of phoenix. I am very pleased to see a product of ours being globally competetive because I am at the point where I doubt I will be able to bring myself to buy an american auto again in my lifetime. On the other hand I am still laughing the germans bought chrysler. Its almost as funny as the japanese buying rockefeller center but not the land it was built on.

Mercantilism is fundamentally about protecting favored groups so they don't have to adapt. Like most such schemes that try to ignore the real world it works for awhile and then collapses brutally.

Why not? Americans make many fine cars under labels like Toyota.

Not that it really matters.
--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

a 300M, and it is a damned fine automobile; a little under 60K and never a significant repair. As to the German takeover, why shouldn't they use our securities laws and avoid ponying up all the payola that it takes to build a plant in the US?

It is so liberally fashionable to bash American products that even putative conservatives get caught up in it. There are actually a few things still done well in this country, believe it or not. If there's a nominally competitive American made product on the market, I'll buy it; you can make your own contribution to the balance of trade deficit.

In Vino Veritas

And by american I mean GM or Ford (I had seen my friends have bad experiences with chryslers) and I had never had a satisfactory experience. I finally bought a used accura and have had a better experience than I ever had with my new american cars.

As they say your mileage may very.

My harp is turned to mourning, and my organ shall speak with the voice of them that weep. Spare me, O Lord, for my days are truly as nothing.

Just another example that President Bush is not serious about the war on terror. This along with an open southern border ought to open some eyes.

I had to laugh at the comments from some of the folks here at Red State that education will eliminate extremism. How out of touch with reality is that? Marx, Lenin, Bin Ladin. All highly educated. Also many of their key assistants. Our universities themselves are filled with highly educated Marxists.

Education will not change fanaticism, be it political, religious or ideological. As history shows, it tends more to feed it. Coming here to American Universities to hear what a bad and terrible country the USA is from Marxist professors can only make them more benevolent...not.

I had to laugh at the comments from some of the folks here at Red State that education will eliminate extremism. How out of touch with reality is that?

Kerry, H.R.Clinton, Gore, Dean, Michael Moore... Highly educated and well respected institutions! 'Nuff said!

See The World In HinzSight!

This is an important issue and reasonable people disagree. One side of the argument is the Thomas Barnett kill-em-with-connectivity tactic. He calls this the soft kill.

For every 100 Saudis (or Pakistanis, etc) that come over here, how many become resentful radicals, and how many become more Westernized? I think the data shows that the overwhelming majority becomes more Westernized. They still might be reactionary by our standards, but they have moved relatively closer to the West.

The problem is the few who become more radical. It's bound to happen that we'll let in a couple angry, resentful engineer types who can do real harm to us. We can limit that potential with aggressive monitoring of these students, but we can't eliminate it entirely.

I find it difficult to decide which serves our interest better. If you think of Western culture as being like a virus that we can use to destroy radical Islam from within, then the more contact the better. Of course, it's often the more hedonistic aspects of the West that are most effective, a la 'Democracy, Whisky, Sexy'.

Allowing more Saudis and other Muslims into the country is a gamble that the risk is worth the payoff and implicitly buys into the notion that exposure to our culture weakens radical Islam.

A comparison might be made to the large # of Chinese-born people living here. We do catch an occasional spy who's done real damage to our interests (not by blowing up stuff, but stealing weapon designs and the like). That said we get real benefits: Our culture 'infects' more Chinese and helps Westernize China. Our economy is boosted by trade and cultural ties. And we get a pool of potential spies for us, too. (The fact that we have large #s of loyal Americans who can look like members of any culture on the planet is a big advantage geopolitically I believe.)

All that said, we could also just wall off the Middle East and hope Europe 'Westernizes' it. I have some Turkish friends and they've described the cultural interaction of Swedish girls on vacation. Swedish girls pulling a Cancun on the Muslim world definitely threatens traditional Islam. Not enough Swedish girls to blanket the Middle East, but they seemed to have had a profound effect on the Turks I know.

We could all use more Swedish girls to have a more profound effect on all our lives. :-)

...it only takes one strapped into a semtex girdle to ruin your family's night out.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader

All the West has to offer the Muslim world is licentiousness and hedonism? If that were true, we would probably deserve the destruction they so desire to inflict on us. If you are counting on immorality to soften their ideological fanaticism, you can forget it. On the night before 9-11, one hijacker tried to buy a prostitute. Others allegedly went to a strip club. The next day they tried to destroy our country. I don't know if this is Islamic santioned behavior, but whatever, it did nothing to "westernize" them.

Bourgoise Christian morality is just one of many gifts the West gave the world. Some may be using their Liberty to act immorally in our day "a la Democracy, whisky, sexy", but these excesses will prove to be of no help against our fanatical enemies.

I propose a "Manhattan Project" type effort to mass produce Swedish girls and flood the Middle East with them.

If that fails, we can send over the American feminists.

over there anyway. Exposure to American feminists would either send them all to a monastery or make them unequivocally gay.

In Vino Veritas

would you do that to nice Swedish girls?


John
---------
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

I saw a presentation recently on the intellectual isolation of the Muslim world. It discussed the stunning lack of books, educational materials, works of literature of all types, etc from other languages and cultures that been translated into Arabic. It doesn't happen. One factoid, which I may not get number-perfect, was that something like more books are translated into Spanish (in Spain) in one year than translated-into-Arabic books exist currently. Other cultures, other ideas just aren't available to Arab Muslims.
This is not only about educating wealthy, radical-seeking families. There are many other people, and families, and entire communities that have had no exposure to anything outside of their radical-controlled culture. This is not to say that John Grisham books stop terrorism, but to deny the connection between the exchange of ideas and Western tolerance is equally incorrect. Other religions, economic ideas, pop culture, etc: all of this leads to the softening of fundamentalism.
Closing off our borders to tens of thousands of people because some of them might be terrorists won't help us from any perspective whether political or security-focused. Of course we should screen. Of course we should encourage integration and patriotism to this, their new country. But that's not to say we can close the borders to an entire region and pretend we'll be safer.
Last, France has its issues (as does England, to some degree) due to their messed-up economic and labor markets: Poor Arabs move in, can't get jobs, get on welfare, don't get accepted by the natives, and their communities become natural breeding grounds for radicals, fresh meat for radical imams looking for the next bomber. American Muslims don't have those economic barriers, they do better here, and they don't turn to terror/riots/radical politics like in France.

When I was at Berkely in the 1980s, there were hundreds of Middle Eastern foreign students there. I had many in my classes and several of them as TA's. At the time, they were pleasant enough and not a problem.

Today, I live near the campus and I see lots of Middle Eastern students. But now I see the men in those long robes and skullcaps, and the women in hijabs. I also get rather hard stares from some of the men, even when I see them at the Safeway. Things have changed.

I don't mind bringing them here to study. I don't even mind the immigration of some of them. I understand that there are many who may simply want out of the terrible societies they live in. I can accept that. HOWEVER - this can only work if we institute an aggressive assimilation program for ALL our immigrants. Personally, I am rather tired of the constant hectoring by advocates for one group or another complaining that I am not "sensitive" or "inclusive" enough to foreigners and their ways. Sorry, but I don't have to be. This is America. Adapt to us or leave. We need to make it clear to immigrants that we will not change our ways to adapt to them, but rather insist that it is they who must adapt to us.

Seems to me the real issue is about the role of religion, and religious values, in government. It wasn't so long ago in Western civilization that church and state were hopelessly intertwined. Why? Because in medieval views of Christianity, the only legitimate authority was God's authority, and it was the duty of the state to execute God's will. Simiarly for the Islamo-fascists: they want their warped version of Islam to be the one true authority, as no man-made authority is higher in precedence than Allah. We let our women run around in knee-high skirts (gasp!), hence we defile the Koran and deserve to have our heads cut off. The reason why the Western world isn't a bunch of radical Christian extremists is because around the 18th century or so, we had an Enlightenment, which resulted, among other things, with the general belief that it's possible for religious values and secular government to coexist without being one and the same. That's what the Islamic world really needs: their own version of an Enlightenment. They are still stuck in the medieval tradition of the state as the enforcer of Allah's will on earth. What will break them free of this? We need the Muslim version of Hume and Voltaire. We aren't going to get this by turning away Muslim scholars from this country or from the Western world generally.

And let them keep him. Your grasp of Western history is somewhat tenuous.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who claims that globalization is a conservative process is either a liar or a fool. - James Kurth

that you accept the proposition that Islam is a religion in the western sense of the word. It isn't.


John
---------
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

The reason Christians are willing to accept the authority of the State in parallel with the authority of the Church (Christ) is in large measure that Christ commanded it. "Render unto Caeser..."

Please find me a reference from the Koran that is comparable.

The problem here is that Muslim "scholars" recognize no authority or hierarchy outside of their own theocracy. Until that changes, don't expect the Islamic world to progress from it's current position, firmly rooted in the 7th century.

_______________________________
If "pro" is the opposite of "con", what is the opposite of "progress"?

You know, the half about "taking the fight to the enemy." The half about protecting the homeland seems to go over his head when it comes to our borders, ports, and whom we allow into the country. This makes him 50 percent better than the Democrats, but that's not a great deal of reassurance.

Incidentally, as mentioned upthread, this foolishness led to the creation of "Visa Express" in Saudi Arabia prior to 9/11, and it took a lot of pressure thereafter to have that dismantled. "Visa Express" did away with such unpleasantness as standing in line while a determination was made about whether an applicant wanted to inflict mass homicide.

Require immigrants to renounce lesser jihad: fine. Keep track - real track - of visa holders; I'm there. Be unapologetic about profiling at airports; yeah, it's harsh, but that's the modern world for you. I even wholeheartedly agree that we need to tighten our immigration process even further.

But I can not and will not endorse the banning of entry of an entire group of people solely on the basis of their religion. Here I stop.

Moe

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

We could also add/encourage/create more integrationist policies, in order to help assimilation.

I think that it's time that we started dis-couraging bilingualism in this country, for a start.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

5 by jsteele


John
---------
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

I am envious of my friends and relatives who are bi or multi-lingual.

Don't let the liberals steal a perfectly good word for their own purposes. Bilingual education is teaching people two languages to native standard, not segregating Spanish speakers so that they stay poor and vote Democrat. That is the old Democrat policy of 'separate but equal' and, yes, they are still lying about 'equal'.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

has become, Quentin. It was once used to assimilate immigrants. It is now a tool to make sure they remain poor, helpless, and forced into a parasitic relationship with the state. Even citizens predisposed to sharply lower and better scrutinized immigration and abolition of the illegal variety altogether realize there are millions here who need to develop English fluency. That doesn't serve the Democrats' victim quota well, and frankly some Republican owners of buggy whip industries have no interest in assimilated immigrants, so it is a struggle. Given what I have seen from the vested interests in this debate, there is no cause to believe reason will prevail. Instead, many will implore us to "celebrate" diversity as they exploit a linguistically segregated population. Sick stuff there, and the future unless we get ahead of it.

I agree with you there.

I read Paul is saying here that he opposes increases in immigration from majority-muslim countries in the Middle East, not that he wants a ban on immigration by muslims.

Where did he say that, that I missed it?

thanks,
--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

"I've been on record for a complete cessation of all Muslim immigration for well over a year now."

I'm not screaming at him about this, by the way. But I can't say that I agree with it.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

OK, it was in the reply there, that's why I missed it.

Thanks again,
--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

But then, I am for the near cessation of all immigration, at least for a few years.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

You're certainly a man with whom I'd be honored to hammer out a compromise. You think Congress will let us write the bill?

________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

Although I just had a rather evil thought on the visas: "Why, sure, you can send over your students. I'm sure that all of them will enjoy the innocent pleasures of America, such as mixed swimming pools and driving cars... what? Oh, didn't we explain? Yeah, we're only going to be giving visas to Saudi female students. It's that affirmative action thing. Title IX. You know.

"Well, actually, that won't be a problem. No, we've got plenty of domestic funding: the National Rifle Association is underwriting the deal. Something about outreach... hello? Hello? He must have hung up."

Which is why Congress wouldn't let me craft a bill. :)

Moe

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.

--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

Let them come, just limit them to the above. The only good muslim is a Muslim for Jesus.

Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.

I'm sort of taking the neocon view here. I developed my opinions after reading An End to Evil.

--
"It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race." - Chief Justice John Roberts

--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

We Can't Trust Them.
The article says - We can't trust them. I don't think it hijacked the thread, only reenforced it.

Mistake 1: You failed in your attempt to reply to me instead of making another top-level reply.

Mistake 2: You didn't read past the title, where Paul makes it plain that 'them' refers to a) the Bush administration and b) the Democrats.
--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

If indeed it is impossible for Muslims, due to their ideological faith to assimilate to American culture,
what can be done? It is impossible to force someone to think or believe a certain way.

There are (depending on who is counting)anywhere between 2 - 9 Million Muslims living in the US right now. Even if less than one tenth of one percent of them are willing or wanting to wage jihad against us, that is TOO MANY.
It took only 19 to change our country on 9-11.

Preventing hundreds more from immigrating or schooling here could be a start, but again, what of those already here?

I'm completely stumped as to an acceptable solution.

sitting over in the corner and everyone is pretending that it isn't there.

An attack comparable to 9/11 or worst, especially if perpetrated by Muslim residents or citizens, and I can imagine the WW II Japanese internment will look like a company picnic. Western civilization is capable of some truly draconian actions in pursuit of self-preservation.


John
---------
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

An attack comparable to 9/11 or worst, especially if perpetrated by Muslim residents or citizens, and I can imagine the WW II Japanese internment will look like a company picnic. Western civilization is capable of some truly draconian actions in pursuit of self-preservation.

I don't buy it. Maybe a third of America will be entirely predisposed to this, being the Democratic base.

We're having a fit in a war where the deaths can be counted one by one. We sit here and try to honor every single individual American killed by terrorism here, or over there in the war. Every single one, separately, by name. We can do it, too, because the numbers are low. And yet we're throwing fits because of this cost.

You just can't DO that in a major war. When the deaths come by the hundred or the thousand, you can't go down the list one by one. And yet, in the old days, we could fight a war like that and manage to give big wins to the party in power.

This country is just too civilized to react the way you fear, I think. At least in reaction to anything that the terrorists are capable of throwing at us.

--
If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not looking close enough to see the black and white dots.

This country is just too civilized to react the way you fear, I think. At least in reaction to anything that the terrorists are capable of throwing at us.

... I suggest you learn Arabic, buy your wife a burkah and get yourself a fresh copy of the Koran because we are going to lose.

We cannot, and will not, win this struggle by playing by some 'oh-so-civilized' set of rules while the other guys kills a few thousand of us at a time. I refuse to accept the argument that by not doing so we are no better than the bad guys. Millions of Americans went to WW II. We as a people, and they as individuals, dropped millions of tons of bombs on European cities killing untold numbers of civilians, burned Japanese soldiers alive in the Pacific islands when they wouldn't surrender, firebombed Japanese cities, dropped nuclear weapons. And when it was over these same men came home and returned to jobs as bakers and bankers, became husbands and fathers. They did not become depraved serial killers.

If you want to remain free to live your life as you choose and not as some imam dictates then we are going to have to take off the gloves. Just as with every totalitarian regime, the enemy does not respect our tolerance and our 'fair play'; they see this as weakness. They see us as fools and are heartened by our inability to confront them without calling a lawyer first.

If we continue doing what we are doing this is not going to end well for us.


John
---------
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee, but why this is more stylish than sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whisky, I don't know.
P.J O'Rourke

civilized, but that said, I think the people would support necessary measures if the President would adequately articulate the necessity and do it forcefully enough to drown out or discredit the "elites." As much as I support him, GWB ain't the "great communicator."

In Vino Veritas

I do trust him and it does not seem like madness to me. I've given my reasons before: target jihad and sharia not all Muslims. And you want to call that madness. I can give you one thing on that point. "Madness" is the response your accusation engenders in me.

John E.

I've given my reasons before: target jihad and sharia not all Muslims.

That's fine. You know I'm on-board with that. But we're not even close to doing it. Not even close, John.

____________________
And the Lord upon the Golden Horn is laughing in the sun.

I admit that I don't know what our specific ability to screen immigrants is. I do however observe that P. Bush has consistently made politically hard decisions designed to beat the enemy, so I'm not ready to assume the worst. In fact, I am opposed to undermining him...as counterproductive.

On the other hand, I am willing to join my energy and resources with you in a productive effort to make the advocacy of jihad and national sharia an extremely serious crime...latching this into immigration policy as you contemplated and into sedition law. I am searching for the purchase whence i can engage in productively building the political support which will enable or motivate our politicians to do these things. And it is pragmatically clear which politicians will be most receptive to this.

It may be very difficult for you to disambiguate this (targeting jihadist/shariaist immigrants) from your general views on immigration as it obviously dove-tails. As i see it, the broader immigration debate is in stalemate; your more specific ideas are important in and of themselves and tying them with the broader view on immigration burdens them with extra baggage. Put the sources of support in a Venn diagram and i think you come out ahead on the jihad laws by disambiguating. I for example strongly support jihad laws but disagree with your broader positions on immigration. You will argue heartily for both, but are they treatable as separable arguments and important as distinct goals?

John E.

 
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