84% of Utah Republicans Are Bigots
No, but if you follow to the end the logic of a few pundits, that's what you come up with.
By Erick Posted in 2008 — Comments (100) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Shouldn't we take that from this?
Pollster Dan Jones & Associates found that 84 percent of Utah Republicans who said they are likely to vote in Tuesday's GOP presidential primary favor Romney, the Michigan-born, BYU-educated, former governor of Massachusetts. Arizona Sen. John McCain, the national Republican front-runner, finishes a very distant second with only 4 percent of the GOP vote.
I mean, most of these people are probably voting for Mitt Romney because he is a Mormon.
Doesn't that make them bigots? After all, if an evangelical who votes for Huckabee is a bigot, aren't these people bigots?
Of course the answer to all of this is no. But it is the logical conclusion to arrive at for those who have invested so much in equating a vote against Mitt Romney as a vote for bigotry. Sadly, too many otherwise sane Republican operatives have invested so much in this narrative they cannot actually see that, while a small percentage of people probably are anti-Mormon bigots, a very large number just don't trust the guy or have another reason for not supporting him.
Some of those who have invested so much in supporting Romney need to take comfort in something and imputing bigotry to voters keeps them from having to critically examine their spin and determining how they could be so out of step with so many conservatives who refused to get in line behind their generally shallow rhetoric.
Whether you like Mitt Romney or not, support him or not, are voting for him or not, at the end of the day trust is the biggest issue in the calculus.
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84% of Utah Republicans Are Bigots 100 Comments (0 topical, 100 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
It could be the Mormon thing.
Or maybe, it's the fact that he has a strong pro-choice history from when it was politically expedient to be pro-choice, coupled with the fact that he became pro-life about the time he would need to start organizing a run for president. Ask Giuliani about the efficacy of a Presidential campaign featuring a pro-choice Republican. BTW, this issue could be the one that is the source of his perceived problem with evangelicals, just as it was a problem for National Right to Life.
Or maybe, it's because he makes a distinction between raising taxes and raising fees while some of us don't. Is the problem how we feed the big black dog, or is the problem the big black dog?
Or maybe, it's because his love for Michigan auto workers (and their votes) led him to promise to help revitalize the American auto industry. Never mind that this revitalized industry might just find its new life in South Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Kentucky, and Texas. This might be part of why he tanked in South Carolina. Maybe South Carolinans thought Mitt would send their auto industry jobs back to Michigan?
Or maybe, it's because he has no problem pandering to the AARP crowd using scare tactics straight out of the Clinton playbook? Scary John McCain voted against the prescription drug bill. Of course, since that didn't work for Mitt, he's now making the point that he also objected to the prescription drug bill. Funny, I don't recall that being mentioned in the robo-calls sponsored by his campaign.
Or maybe, it's exactly because he's such a wonk. He "understands the economy", and he knows all the right levers to pull and buttons to push. The problem isn't that the government truck is too big. He seems to think it just needs a smarter driver. Thanks, but no thanks. A smaller truck would be easier to drive.
Or maybe, it's because he would call the lawyers in the event of a terrorist attack. Hopefully, he wouldn't call John Edwards.
Or maybe, it's because he can always ask the State Department if he ever really needs to know anything about foreign policy.
No, they're right. It can only be the Mormon thing.
You can't afford the price of free corn.
As a Mormon, I would tell you that I did not vote for Sen. Harry Reid (a Democrat). Your premise begins and ends there!
As a Mormon, I might end up voting for Obama if McCain is the Republican Nominee because of the offensive stuff that has come out of McCain's mouth (and his mother's) about Mormons.
Huckabee has been Anti-Mormon his whole campaign. And you expect that after attacking my religion, I would somehow rally around two bigots who have used religion as a means of obtaining a vote. Has Mitt ever used his religion to get votes -- I mean overtly. Clearly, Mormons know he is Mormon, but has Mitt ever said come and vote for me because I am Mormon? The answer is no. He has only asked that those who share his values vote for him.
3% of the Mormon vote went to Obama and Hilary in the Nevada election. Sen. Reid's very Mormon son is running Hilary's campaign in Nevada. The Mormon Church is very neutral on politics, though they will take a stand on moral issues from time-to-time. Interestingly enough, up until the 70's Mormons were regularly voting Democrat and supporting the likes of Kennedy.
Mormons are supporting Romney so strongly because he saved the Winter Olympics -- IN UTAH! He shares their strong message. They know he has good values and they understand his commitment to his family and nation. In other words, they trust him -- not because of his faith, but because he has punched the card.
Let's not forget that Romney is leading McCain by 25% in Massachusetts among those who know and trust him.
He swept Michigan because people knew his character. He took Nevada cleanly because the voters have come to know and trust Mormon Political Leaders there.
If Romney was not a conservative, you would have seen the opposite in Utah. Had, for instance, Harry Reid run for office here, he would be destroyed.
It is not about the religion, it is about knowing that when Mr. Romney commits to something, that he will do it and CAN BE TRUSTED. Those closest to the candidate understand the candidate better than any other.
That's probably why John McCain is having such a hard time keeping a double-digit lead in his home state of Arizona. Certainly, he is not winning like Romney in Massachusetts.
nvlawyer
So according to you the only reason that members of the LDS church in Utah are voting for Mitt is because he saved the Winter Olympics...OK Fine, I'll beleive that...or not.
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Proud member of the Barry Goldwater wing of the party !
He's saying that Utahians are more likely to vote for the guy that came in an saved their Olympics. I can't see nvlawyers post right now, but I'm sure he was talking about people from Utah, not "members of the LDS Church".
Is it not surprising that one of the reddest states in the nation would go overwhelmingly for the more conservative guy who has a history there? Imagine if Fred were still in the race and had come in to save their Olympics, would he not be destroying McCain at this moment?
I'm not trying to ignore the obvious, but there are plenty of other reasons the GOP in Utah would support Romney over McCain. Saying they support him only because he's a Mormon a very shallow analysis similar to Evangelicals on support Huck or Huck supporters will all go to Romney instead of McCain.
Nothing shallow about it.
To pretend that Mitt's LDS faith will not play a significant part in his carrying Utah is about as silly as pretending that the good folks in Iowa who voted for Pastor Hucka..Hucka did so for any other reason than his Christian credentials and their identification with his appeal to them based on that identity.
As a matter of pride in one of their own, I'd not expect less of members of the LDS church in Utah to not support an upstanding member of their church unless he's a complete ninny, which he's not. He's a Robot...not not really but he's not Presidential timber.
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Proud member of the Barry Goldwater wing of the party !
I don't think Erick was saying Mormons are bigots, he was illustrating the absurdity of the argument that those who don't support Romney are anti-Mormon.
That MSNBC article is incredibly stupid. Obviously, the writer knows nothing about conservative voters.
I'm not voting for Romney, but I've always defended him against stupid anti-Mormon comments from ignoramuses (usually from libtards).
I don't know what "anti-Mormon" things you claim McCain has said, but I suspect it's in your imagination, considering you are apparently afflicted with MDS. Voting for Hillobama if he's the nominee? Yep, that's MDS.
You do know there is a large Mormon population in Arizona, don't you? Do you actually think he'd have been re-elected there if he were anti-Mormon?
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~ Beth ~
That's probably what he's thinking of.
One of McCain's organizers in Iowa said that Mormons treat their women like the Taliban (he also suggested Mormons are Palestinian sympathizers).
Most Easter papers/media focused on the Palestinian accusation, but out west the Taliban comments were front page news- mainly cause there is no faster way to piss off every Mormon woman than to say they are oppressed (as historically this is followed by a measure depriving them of the right to vote so as to protect them from themselves- it actually happened in the 1870's).
To McCain's credit he understood what a big mistake this was and fired the guy if I remember right. But Mormon women still hold some sore feelings over the issue. (It is much more explosive politically than anything Huckabee did).
There was also the McCain supporting precinct captain in SC that ambushed Romney with anti-Mormon literture and demanded Romney defend his faith during a meeting with SC GOP leaders.
Now I don't think McCain was personally behind this (while I do believe Huckabee did deliberately raise the issue, no matter what you might think Erik), but I can see why some people might get (overly) defensive.
By the way Erik, telling Mormons that there is no anti-Mormon bigotry going on in this campaign is sort of like the Clintons telling Blacks that there is no racism in the Democratic primaries.
I really don't get your insistence on trying to argue the point as it will only harden the bad feelings- particularly when argued by using an inflammatory analogy. Just let this sleeping dog lie. Huckabee is out of contention anyways, so why are you continuing to bring the issue up?
"As a Mormon, I might end up voting for Obama if McCain is the Republican Nominee because of the offensive stuff that has come out of McCain's mouth (and his mother's) about Mormons."
You're pretty quick to toss out the bigot accusation. How about you back it up with a link?
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SQETR00&show_article=1
"As far as the Salt Lake City thing, he's a Mormon and the Mormons of Salt Lake City had caused that scandal. And to clean that up, again, it's not a subject," Roberta McCain
"Mrs. McCain's comments? Oh I give a pass to anybody that's over 90. They can say whatever they want,"
I didn't think it was that bad, I just wanted to provided the link so people could make up their own mind.
I think McCain had another Mormon moment when one of his SC campaign staffers made an anti-Mormon comment.
Thanks for the link.
As to the comment, I'm not sure I can make much sense of it one way or another. However, I can see how the conflation of Mormons and the SLC organizing committee could cause some offense. But, given the fact she's 95 I might cut her a little slack.
Regardless, where are McCain's supposedly bigoted comments?
As I just mention above, I don't think it's that bad, I just wanted to provide the link.
If McCain were some closet bigot against Mormons then I doubt he would have/be doing so well among AZ GOP where Mormons make up about the size of NV GOP. He's also pulled in the endorsements of several high profile Mormons to include Rep Flake and Gov. Huntsman.
Nvlawyer, three researchers (two from Vanderbilt and one from Claremont) studied the issue of anti-Mormon bias with regard to Mitt Romney. Here is a link to a Vanderbilt University press release about the study: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/news/releases/2008/1/18/vanderbilt-poll-explai... .
Below is copied an excerpt from the Vanderbilt press release:
Geer and colleagues Brett Benson of Vanderbilt and Jennifer Merolla of Claremont Graduate University designed an Internet survey to assess bias against Mormons, how best to combat it and its potential impact on the nomination process and general election campaign.
“We find that of those who accuse Romney of flip-flopping, many admit it is Romney’s Mormonism and not his flip-flopping that is the real issue,” Benson said. “Our survey shows that 26 percent of those who accuse Romney of flip-flopping also indicate that Mormonism, not flip-flopping, is their problem with Romney.” Benson noted that the pattern is especially strong for conservative Evangelicals. According to the poll, 57 percent of them have a bias against Mormons.
You could make the argument that Mormons are just voting for one of their own if you could cite where Harry Reid has received 84 percent of the Mormon vote. I'm sure Mormons (who are extremely conservative) are thrilled they get to vote for one of their own while still being true to their political ideals. Huckabee supporters can't say the same.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
it was marked Evangelical on the outside.
Yeah, I know it was a silly statement -- but it made me laugh! Truthfully, Evangelicals split with Romney, but Iowa was clearly an anti-Mormon vote given Huckabee's games, e.g., cross in the window, "Jesus is Satan's brother" and the like.
Evangelicals can like Huckabee for his record, but they weren't voting for him for his record. They were voting for him because he wasn't Mormon and Huckabee was Evangelical.
Following this election, Huckabee minus the Evangelical stance = less than Fred Thompson. Some want to put Jesus back into the constitution and are hell-bent on electing "their guy." That is what I find offensive. Not running on his record, but running on his religion.
Mormons are not supporting Romney because he's going to put a Mormon on the Moon. They like his values and understand where he is coming from. We aren't going to stop people from smoking or drinking and we are not going to turn the White House into a Mormon Temple (as I have read many, many Evangelicals say in article comments). For many supporters of Huckabee, Religion is their only reason for supporting Huckabee -- not all, but certainly many. Too many.
That ought to be enough to give you pause...! Since you've already shown your ignorance on these matter, no need to further explain.
Formally known as Deagle... "Golf is a way of life..."
I suggest you take a moment, settle down, and read what Erick wrote before you fly off the handle any more.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
Romney does much better among Mormons than Huckabee does among Evangelicals, thereby suggesting that Mormons are more into identity politics than evangelicals. If you don't know what you're talking about perhaps it would be better to keep your mouth shut instead of revealing your ignorance.
For many people, faith reveals character. Most voters are not going to devote the time necessary to form intelligent opinions on the minutia of public policy, but they are good at reading a person's character. Arguably, Presidents Bush and Clinton defeated their opponents on image issues more than any policy differences. That's why Hillary Clinton has to fight off Obama right now.
And wherever men are fighting against barbarism, tyranny, and massacre, for freedom, law, and honour, let them remember that the fame of their deeds, even though they may be exterminated, may perhaps be celebrated as long as the world rolls round. ~ Winston Churchill
I live in a state with a huge Mormon population and they are extremely clanish and exclusive. Most Mormons I know don't even socialize with non-Mormons. Successful Mormon businessmen and professionals give hiring preference to Mormons as well. There has been a lot of talk that Mitt has suffered because many believe that the LDS church isn't truly Christian. It is a Christian church, but it doesn't follow one Christian principle - in terms of charitible contributions, Mormons are encouraged to give to Mormons first. Because Mitt was raised in Mich. and lived in Mass. I don't believe he has this narrow view of the world. But I must admit if he were a Mormon from the intermountain West, I wouldn't consider voting for him.
This is a political blog, not a forum for your religious views. I have a friend who is going to BYU right now, and he is part of a student group aimed at convincing others why Romney wouldn't be a good president.
Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone. --Mitt Romney
You have way too little knowledge of what you speak to be speaking...
Formally known as Deagle... "Golf is a way of life..."
Talk about opening your mouth and removing all doubt.
Mormons in old cities like Salt Lake and Provo can be clicky and even rude. I've heard Jews in New York and Evangelicals in the south are the same way. It is a group dynamic and trust factor. One coming from the outside of any larger group who is new or different from the locals is going to be looked upon with less confidence than families and people they know better. That's just a human dynamic, not a Mormon dynamic.
I was a Mormon who moved into a heavy Mormon populated area in Utah (being originally from Arizona) and I got much of the same treatment, so don't feel too excluded, because it is a dynamic that impact ALL outsiders.
Now back to politics. Romney's growing up outside of the click does make him a better candidate. A good number of Republicans are very far right in Utah for my liking: Meaning that there is a little marching to the drum and less independent thinking and distrust of others. Romney has the Mormon values, but is more forward thinking, which is a tremendous and unique mix.
as a result of many years of persecution. Their leader who just passed away spent most of time as president encouraging the mormons to reach out to others of all faiths, and i believe that significant steps have been taken both at the church and individual level to that end. Still, there is far to go especially in heavily mormon communities. but nvlawyer is right, it seems to apply to all outsiders.
There was a Newsweek story some few months back on Romney that really seemed to make the point that nvlawyer is making; ie, that he was raised in a very open and reaching out environment.
"in terms of charitible contributions, Mormons are encouraged to give to Mormons first"
That is B.S. the LDS Church sends food and money to disaster areas all over the world. And if a non-LDS person asked for help they would get it. You claim is unfounded. And I would know I have been involved with this process. In fact we just helped out a non-LDS family in our neighborhood with a weeks worth of food last week, so that they could use their money to pay their mortgage. The family is down on their luck right now. There is no strings attached either.
Also, My Father who lives in north Florida spent 2 weeks and 3-4 additional weekends in Mississippi on "LDS" chainsaw gangs cutting up trees that had fallen after Katrina. Hey, as guess what the people they were helping, almost all non-LDS.
Sorry try again.
something Romney was involved in even when he was campaigning:
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/remington_steele/2007/nov/27/pressless_ser...
The native son always is a shoe in.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
McCain is averaging 41% support in Arizona, with Romney at 25% and Huckabee at 8%. That's a far cry from an 84-4 split. You are correct that home field advantage plays a part in Romney's Utah support, but it's way more than normal. Undoubtedly, Mormon solidarity is a huge factor.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Solidarity with conservatives that is...have Harry Reid run in Utah and see what happens. I bet Orrin Hatch would win head to head with Romney if he was in the race. Throw in my senator, Gordon Smith, who is a more moderate Republican, and Romney would beat him.
Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone. --Mitt Romney
Since this is just a matter of conservative solidarity, Fred Thompson would have been in a neck and neck race in Utah with Romney if he were still in the campaign? Riiight.
Even if you remove religion from the equation Romney would get a big boost out of his family life and clean living as compared to Thompson. Cigar smoking and trophy wives are not going to be popular with Utah voters. It's not a deal-breaker and you would have plenty that would consider the consistency worth the vices, but being a straight-laced family man with conservative values would work wonders for Romney in Utah whether he was a Mormon or not.
But if they were the only ones supporting him, his support would look a lot like...well...Huckabee's. Romney has proven he has broad appeal, (as the Florida exit polls showed) in large part because he's running as a conservative Republican candidate, not a Mormon Candidate. I think it was a big mistake for Huckabee to make a central tenet of his campaign that he was a Christian Leader instead of letting his Chritsian credentials speak for themselves while focusing on policy. I think it became a huge distraction for him after Iowa.
Everyone has their own view here, but in my view people are only bigoted if they vote against a candidate because of that candidate's religion.
If Evangelicals are voting for Huckabee because he has been an Evangelical leader, there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with Mormons voting for Romney because he is Mormon.
If either group votes against the other candidate because of his religion then that makes them bigoted.
There are plenty of polls that show many Evangelicals wouldn't vote for Romney because of his religion. You can't show one that says the same thing about Mormons not voting for Huckabee.
Also Huckabee made his religion an issue in an effort to win votes. There is nothing wrong with that and I'm sure any politician, including Romney, would have done the same thing if it had been to their advantage. Even though there is nothing wrong with what Huckabee did, that combined with his not so innocent comments regarding Mormonism sure made it seem like he was trying to take advantage of anti-Mormon sentiments.
Here I have been voting for the lesser of two evils now for several years!
Glad to hear that you are in a different catagory - always have a favorite to vote for...woe is me...
Formally known as Deagle... "Golf is a way of life..."
"You can't raise boys as eagles and expect them to turn out as sparrows."
--Former First Lady Edith Roosevelt reflecting on her son Quentin's heroic valor and tragic death in World War I.
Voting FOR someone does not a bigot make. A Mormon voting for a Mormon is not a bigot. Neither is an evangelical voting for an evangical. It's when you won't vote for someone based on their religion that you receive that title.
I would beg to differ that it is a tiny percentage of people. I live in Iowa and unfortunately, this NY Times article is accurate: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/us/politics/28repubs.html?_r=1&oref=sl...
Here are a few excerpts:
“I think it just causes some uneasiness as to how somebody is going to respond when heavy responsibility is placed on them,” Mr. Carroll said. “I think the Christian would like to know that the person has a strong anchor and prays to the God of the Bible.”
At a recent Huckabee event in Iowa, Glenda Gherkey, an evangelical from Evansdale, posed a question to the candidate.
“I’m concerned a lot of Christians are thinking about the values issues and forgetting about the creator behind the values issues,” Ms. Gherkey said. “I guess I feel like this country and this world needs a president who would be able to pray to the God of the Bible and he would be able to hear his prayers.”
She wondered, Would Mr. Romney’s prayers “even get through”?
Also, check out this study done at Vanderbuilt University. The flip-flop label is just a cover for the religious bias of MANY. Quite interesting.
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/news/releases/2008/1/18/vanderbilt-poll-explai...
I think Huckabee received -1% of the vote in the referenced poll. ;)
Oh, well, some people will fall for anything.
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We're all in the same boat, fellas.
But our shenanigans are cheeky and fun.
His shenanigans are cruel and tragic.
Which wouldn't make them shenanigans, at all, really.
-Evil shenanigans!
1,128,314 of roughly 3,000,000 primary voters so far.
For background, I'm a Mormon that lived in Utah for most of my life but currently live on the east coast.
To understand Romney's high support in Utah you have to keep three things in mind:
1. Mormons, especially Utah Mormons like conservative politicians.
2. Romney has proven his integrity within the religious sphere so Mormons are going to trust him. (In other words the flip-flop label won't stick).
3. Minus the flip-flop label Romney is the strongest conservative in the race.
Combine those three and it's pretty obvious why Mormons are going to vote for him in high numbers.
As others have said, Harry Reid will not enjoy this level of support among Mormons. Yes he shares the same faith but his politics don't fit. Romney fits perfectly.
I don't think Romney's core problem is Anti-Mormon bigotry. But I do think it contributed to two things:
1. Losing Iowa - If Romney would have gotten "saved" in December then I bet he would have won Iowa.
2. The flip-flopper label - Romney has changed positions but the degree to which he gets the label is excessive when you compare him to his competitors. I think the reason for this is that it's more politically correct to use this against Romney then to use his religion. Vanderbilt did a study on this where they found: “Our survey shows that 26 percent of those who accuse Romney of flip-flopping also indicate that Mormonism, not flip-flopping, is their problem with Romney.” Before you get up in arms about this remember, you're probably one of the 74% that really does care more about his flip-flopping then his religion. It's the 26% that we're worried about (and that contribute to the excessive attention paid to this issue for Romney).
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/news/releases/2008/1/18/vanderbilt-poll-explai...
Still, if Romney loses the nomination I wouldn't blame it on
being a Mormon. The reason is that there are benefits that come along with being in a minority (Hey, let's do another news article on the Mormon candidate!) and he got to take advantage of those so you have to take the good with the bad.
I wonder how different things would have been if Romney had spent a few years in the military following his missionary service. Would he have won Florida? Who knows.
The Mormon issue cannot be blamed for Romney's loss if he loses. Hillary probably loses 5-10% of the vote because she is a woman. Obama probably loses 5-10% of the vote because he is black. Romney probably loses 5-10% of the vote because he is a Mormon. None of these losses are insurmountable. In fact one of the two Democratic candidates will win in spite of the loss.
What is it with you?
Have you ever considered that Utahans feel REALLY good about Romney because he turned around their Olympics??
How about the fact that UTAH is a VERY conservative state and Mitt Romney is the most Conservative man left on the GOP side?
Have you forgotten that Utah was the ONLY state in which William Jefferson Clinton came in THIRD??
Erick, you are disgusting and really need to search your soul to find the source of your irrational hatred.
note the irony in the post. It's no secret that Utah is uber-conservative. And the Giants have the ball again. it's gonna be OK.
Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone. --Mitt Romney
Impressive.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
much more explicit on a Super Bowl drink'in Sunday night... Along with others, please re-read the post. It was not close to what you are insinuating...
Formally known as Deagle... "Golf is a way of life..."
in Utah in 2004?
These are the same people you are calling Bigots.
I am so ashamed of this dirty and nasty side of the Republian Party (The McCain Branch)
Re-read it. He's pointing out the absurdity of the charges that people aren't voting for Mitt because he's a Mormon.
He is NOT CALLING MORMONS BIGOTS.
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~ Beth ~
I have thought a lot about this. I live in Utah. I was raised in Ohio and California, as a Lutheran. I left and joined the Baptist Church, then the Church of Christ and went back to the Baptist Church, and finally joined the LDS Church. I love evangelicals. They are such good people in many ways.
Utah is a very different state. Sometimes I feel very confined here, but then there is so much good, so much less of the things that are bad in so many other states.
I have always been a very conservative Republicans and Mormons generally profess this. It goes along with their scriptures that the Constitution is divinely inspired and you will be held accountable for your actions in all areas, including government. I will not bother to site the LDS scriptural references on this.
What is taught and what is practiced is a lot different, and I generally like to vote for those who are not LDS in Utah because the LDS politicians say the are conservative and then become RINO's in office.
When I first heard Romney was running, I was very opposed to him. He does not have a particularly conservative record. I worried a lot about that.
Actually, what turned me around to support Romney was Huckabee and McCain and their criticism of the LDS Church as not Christian. I studied his record and what he is saying now, and why he is saying this.
I believe him. I would much rather trust a person who admits he has made a mistake than someone like McCain who says his views have been the same since he was 17 and enlisted in the military. A person who is so stringent that they cannot change and proud of it, really scares me. We learn and progress everyday. We do not stand still.
And, I thought back to Reagan, my Governor in California and all the conservative groups who asked conservatives not to trust him because he, as Governor, supported abortion rights and gave California huge tax increases. I supported him anyway and am so glad I did. The conservative movement would have probably died without him.
And, McCain, how many years has he been in office? How many budgets has he voted for? And, he does not understand economics? What in the _ _ _ _ was he doing voting on something he does not understand? This is idiotic.
I became converted to Romney after being extremely opposed to him because I looked at him again because of the bigotry of Huckabee and his supporters. I saw them on TV saying they would never vote for a Mormon. I saw them say the would vote for Hillary before they would vote for a Mormon. How can someone vote for someone who hates them so much?
And, McCain is just a rude man. That is more of the same? I do not think that is the way our Savior would want us to treat each other and I do not think our government can improve if that is the way we are as a people.
The scriptures say, Blessed in the land whose God is the Lord. Are we that land anymore?
And, I will tell my evangelical friends. I am a Mormon and I love Jesus Christ. He is my personal Savior. He has answered my prayers, he has guided me, he has changed me in many ways. And that despite the fact that you say I am not a Christian.
We have worked together on so many issues for the good of this Country. When are we going to get back to that? WE have so much more in common than separates us. Let's go to work!
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~ Beth ~
And you'll notice that nobody's actually answering you.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
because the title is so inflammatory and lists Erick as the author. They are not reading the entire post before commenting. You must admit that Erick has built a pretty strong anti-Romney bias through many his past stories and postings. Those who don't read the article assume it is more of the same.
I got it.
He could have gotten the same point across without the headline.
When do we get the "Blacks in SC are bigots" headline? People have accused whites of not voting for Obama. Erick is the one that don't get it. Part of it is backlash.
That was the whole point in writing this post as it is written.
A whole lot of people have bought into the narrative.
With Huckabee no longer competitive it's no longer part of the narrative.
Geez, can't you accept that reasonable people can conclude that Huckabee was trying to play up some anti-Mormon feeling with his Jesus and Satan are brothers comment?
Maybe you don't believe it, but it's not unreasonable to think Huckabee did it intentionally.
Huckabee and Huckabee supporters (and some McCain supporters- though not with McCain's approval) inserted this into the narrative, why do you insist on attacking Romney supporters?
"Of course the answer to all of this is no. But it is the logical conclusion to arrive at for those who have invested so much in equating a vote against Mitt Romney as a vote for bigotry. Sadly, too many otherwise sane Republican operatives have invested so much in this narrative they cannot actually see that, while a small percentage of people probably are anti-Mormon bigots, a very large number just don't trust the guy or have another reason for not supporting him."
While I agree many of the responses here miss the general thrust of Erick's point, I also tend to agree that he might have used a less inflammatory fashion to make that point. That headline is hard to get around, regardless of what the fine print actually says below it.
Where I disagree with Erick is that I don't know of anyone who equates all or even most votes against Romney as a vote for bigotry. I think just about everyone agrees with his statement that "a small percentage of people probably are anti-Mormon bigots." The real area of disagreement lies in the actual size of that small percentage. Romney supporters, and most likely most Mormons, will tend to think it is a larger number while Romney opponents will likely see it as a smaller number.
I've heard very little of the bigotry argument for a while and as a Mormon I am sensitive to it. I don't understand why YOU are bringing this up. The only reference you give is a very minor commentary from MSNBC. It strikes me as a little odd that you're bringing this up now.
It's kind of a strange situation when there are polls like the one referenced in the Russert/Williams debate and other polls that show a large percentage of people who flat out say they won't vote for a Mormon. Rasmussen found that 18% of Republicans admitted that they will not vote for a Mormon.http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003683825
Not only that but it wasn't too long ago that the Southern Baptists came to Utah and called us a cult and have officially listed us among cults http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7245768. When you put that together with Huckabee's anti-mormonism 101 comment, you have at least some reason to be suspicious. You can also include McCain's mother's comments as a reason to be suspicious.
Erick - bigotry is a factor, not the only factor but still a strong one. If 18 % of Republicans were willing to admit they would never vote for a Mormon, then it probably is even higher than that. I thought this site was doing a very good job of keeping this type of conversation under control and you seem to be the only one to bring it up here and since this is your site, I think that sends a message about this topic. You told me yourself, that even your own grandmother is very anti-Mormon.
Walking the streets of DC and Brazil and having my life threatened literally more than three times just because I was Mormon makes this bigotry real to me. I'm not talking about people just talking about killing me, I'm talking about having a gun pointed at me twice and had a knife pulled on me once. Having a mission companion get pistol whipped unconscious because some thugs were told that Mormon's were satan worshippers and their cousin had converted. That's not even mentioning the nearly constant insults and bigoted remarks made on an almost daily basis.
*Tagg Romney 2038!*
You could have written this post without the inflammitory headline. It doesn't reflect well on you or RS Erick.
Three reasons for these numbers.
1) Mitt is a Mormon. OMG
2) The Olympics. Utah is very grateful for it.
3)There is a huge backlash (as in SC) over the push polling that has taken place regardless of who is to blame.
4)McCains mother's remarks. They were uncalled for and I will tell you that given even a lame alternate McCain will lose Utah in the general. Your headline helps nothing.
McCain will win Utah unless Huckabee is chosen as the VP. But if Huckabee is the VP then expect Utah to go blue or third-party.
That's about what I'd say.
I'll vote for McCain in the general- although I am quite upset about the whole Timetable attack on Romney. That was uncalled for.
But I won't vote for any ticket with Huckabee on the ticket.
Sorry, but to anybody who knows anything about the Deckers and typical anti-Mormon tactics the whole Devil and Jesus are brothers thing was a giveaway.
I see no reason to vote for a politician who attacks my own faith for his political advantage. (Heck I wouldn't vote for Huckabee if he had attack the Catholics or Jews in such an underhanded manner).
I am not so sure that Utah will not continue voting Republican including for McCain. Mormons are the most trusting people in the world. Utah is the fraud capital of the world because everyone knows Mormons are so trusting so they come here with everything and every product, investment or whatever, and Mormons buy it.
I would hope you are correct though. Almost every single Republican I have talked to, and I live in Utah County, which has no democrats elected to office, will not vote for McCain. And, the Democrats here are actually fielding candidates this year. There was only one of them on the ballot two years ago. Three times that have already announced this year. Hopefully what McCain and Huckabee will not give us all these liberals here in Utah.
I think it interesting to note that our polls here in Utah also show Obama with 53% of the Democrats and Hillary with 29%. We should also report that, particularly since Utah is the state that, in 1992 voted for Bush, then Perot and then Clinton.
and McCain doesn't come there and smooth things over he could lose. If he is the nominee.
Given a third party it could happen. Look what Ross P. did.
There's no way McCain could lose Utah in the general election. OK, maybe if Huckabee were the VP. But, otherwise, no.
I've been impressed with Romney's ability to organize groups in the states for quite some time now. Utah is just one where he's been especially successful.
And for those that think only Mormons are a part of that, I can tell you I went to a campaign event and it's not true.
I'm not LDS, but if I were, I would be inclined to vote for Gov. Romney. Remember that Mormons are still a minority group and not too long ago were a persecuted minority group. They are a tight-knit community and I can see how they would look at Romney and want to vote for one of their own. That doesn't mean they don't think he's qualified, but being LDS makes it that much sweeter.
I am a Mormon in Utah. I participated in this Dan Jones poll.
I will vote for Mitt Romney on Tuesday because he appears to be the most qualified candidate for president we have ever had. He is finally a candidate who has not been a lifetime politician. He has owned, analyzed, turned around, and made successful not just one, but several businesses. As a business owner I appreciate more than I can express his knowledge of what government does to business owners.
I will vote for him because he has proven faithful to his wife, his family and his friends. He appears to me to be a genuinely good person.
I will vote for him because he apparently now claims (and I sincerely hope he will continue) to share my views on a litany of issues: abortion(finally), judges, taxes, the economy, national security, cutting spending, reducing the size of the federal government, health care being provided privately rather than by the government, border security and illegal immigration.
I will vote for him mainly for these reasons.
I will also vote for him in part because he saved the Olympics and thereby reduced the embarrassment our State was experiencing. I will vote for him in part because he is a fellow Mormon. I would never have voted for Orrin Hatch for President although I do vote for him regularly as my Congressman.
I will vote for him in spite of our differences on gun control. I in no way support the Brady bill.
I will vote for him in spite of the fact that he does not have a proven track record on all conservative issues on the hope that as President he will create a truly conservative track record.
where we have the 2nd largest Mormon population outside of SLC almost all council and senior city management is Mormon. They preach who to vote for too.
They are of course the only ones who tell their followers who to vote for. /Sarcasim
_____________________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
--Aristotle
Oh no! How horrible!
The Mormon pastors aren't preaching who to vote for though. Apparently you can't tell the difference
PhxG
If they are preaching who to vote for in a church or in an official capacity the General Authorities don't know of it.
It will stop immediatly if they find out. LDS has a strick policy of not endorsing candidates or parties.
I have never heard of it happening before.
Oh the church is hands off. But there are all sorts of "who has your best (mormon) interests" sessions for voting.
Thats not to say I disagree with it. Common people with common interests will invariably unite. Mesa is a primarily Mormon community and folks with that persuasion do ultimately get elected more frequently.
My sister has fallen into the Mormon trap (but that is private matter) and she is always telling me about the political organizing in Gilbert and Mesa concerning local candidate A or B or C, knowing how I watch such things. She tells me it's the Bishops, acting as private citizens do the most of the politicking.
Don;t get me wrong, we are all members of the community and we all must support our local officials, but the fact is it does happen. Even if the President in SLC doesn't come out and announce VOTE ROMNEY!!
_____________________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
--Aristotle
Mormons regularly and consistently vote for Evangelicals and support them with little or no reservation.
Evangelicals do not share the same enthusiasm for Mormons, until they get to know one or two, then they start supporting Mormons. That is why Evangelicals and Mormons are very frequently aligned in the west and southwest.
Mormons and Evangelicals have a good relationship here in the west and vote as a very strong and impressive block. We don't have the exact same theology, but we understand each other.
It is the Southern Evangelicals who have real distrust for what they don't know and clearly they don't know the Mormons or their faithful.
Cheers.
In spite of your sarcasm, you have a point. Identity politics are a problem in both Iowa & Utah.
Most Mormons are decent and fair. Most do not vote for Romney because of religion. But some do, and that’s bad for the Republican Party.
Most Evangelicals are decent and fair. Most do not vote for Huckabee because of religion. But some do, and that’s bad for the Republican Party.
Some think Huckabee added fuel to the fire by flirting with anti-Mormonism.
As far as I know, Romney has not played the anti-Evangelical card. Currently I’m still leaning towards Romney over McCain. Part of that is because McCain’s MSM “maverick” credentials were earned by spitting on the religious right.
Let us, as individuals, vote for the candidate who best matches our values & principles, & not get bogged down in things of identity.
I read & understood Erick's post. I think we need to be careful with tossing terms like "bigot" around at people on our side of the ideological & political aisle. Disagree & debate issues, but lay off the name-calling & labeling.
As an aside, 84% is impressive. Especially considering that means some 22% are non-Mormons*. And if the narrative is that NH IA rejected Mitt because they knew him too well, what about those 22% accepting him who are the ones who know he and his the best?
*which assumes 100% of Mormons, which would be even more impressive. And the level of support among the staunchest conservatives in the country ought to say something as well.
And I trust Mitt far more than John.
No matter what positions he has changed on.
He has not forced horrid bills and laws down our throats, and had fits if anyone dislikes his 'babies'. He is not on a one-man mission to equate Donald Rumsfeld to the incarnation of evil. He has democrats come to conservative answers to issues, not forced republicans to crawl to democrats and support liberal answers to issues (and be an arrogant jerk about it).
Mitt needs some trust that is true, but John has proven he is unworthy of my trust.
For these and other reasons I trust almost anyone more than senator McCain.
From the blogs and the polls it is clear that there is a significant anti-mormon bias at work in the election here. For the mormons participating in these debates and the non-mormons who are familiar with this reality, this is a very old and very familiar tune that is easily recognized. The Southern Baptist Convention for one is openly warning its membership about the "mormon threat" of a Romney presidency. Mr. Huckabee's use of religion is transparent and consistent with this experience.
What makes all of this difficult is that, as the Vanderbilt pole shows, it is very difficult for those familiiar with the anti-mormon cottage industry to discern among those who simply don't like Romney because they don't like Romney, and those who don't like Romney simply because he is mormon. Coupled with the incessant mormon bashing this is understandable.
So, i'm not sure there is anything that can be done about this . . . but Romney supporters need to be careful that they don't alienate those who dislike Romney for non-religous reasons; after all, they might be persuated. As for the significant anti-mormon presence, i think the mormons themselves will tell you that they cannot be persuaded (at least not near term) to the Romney side, and they are best simply not engaged. . . . . if only you could more reliably tell who they are person by person . . . most don't like to acknowledge, but some of the most honest albeit most vitriolic do, and their honesty is appreciated.
Romney was a state hero there with the Olympics. You can call it mormons backing a mormon, but I lived there during the Olympics when I was at BYU, he was a hero.
Do you remember writing this:
"But I say this all to say that while it shouldn't -- rationally and otherwise it should not -- Mr. Romney's religion weighs on me."
http://www.redstate.com/stories/elections/2008/i_want_to_support_rudy_bu...
You have overcome this (as you explain in the linked post). However, what percentage of other evangelicals have overcome the same problem? From your post, I take it that you think it is low. My impression (based on reading other political forums) is that it is quite a bit higher.
When Romney first announced, many of the comments on the Internet forums focused on his religion and how it was weird and how true believers shouldn't vote for him based on it. Those people were attacked as being bigots. Many of those same people then started opposing Romney because of the trust issue. Now, it may be that the trust issue was a big issue to begin with, or it may be that they still oppose him on religions grounds, but have publicly changed to a more acceptable line of attack.
My impression, right or wrong, is that evangelicals would be much more likely to forgive a fellow evangelical for holding liberal positions (e.g., Huck) than a Mormon.
One big difference is that the Romney campaign didn't attack Huckabee's religious beliefs. You didn't have Romney people going out and questioning the orthodoxy of Huckabee's theology. You certainly didn't have Romney people sending out e-mails and posting blogs suggesting that Huckabee wasn't even a Christian.
71% of Utah voters voted for Bush in 2004. Utah has always been a reliably Republican, conservative state.
I'm sure a large part of the reason for Romney's polling numbers in Utah is that he's Mormon. But I suspect Huckabee's record of tax hikes, spending increases, and softness on illegal immigration have something to do with it as well.
Mike Griffith
Let Freedom Ring website
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id47.htm
Mormon themed or operated radio show hosts sincerely asking their listeners "can we vote for an evangelical?"
It just doesn't happen.
I have been on record since January of 2007 saying that Romney's challenge will be getting people to trust him:
I know we slam the Dems for it, but we have our own version too.