A question for you reporters stopping by today
By Erick Posted in 2008 — Comments (47) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
I was in church with my in-laws yesterday for Easter. It's not my favorite church -- too much of a squishy church for me, but I was with family, so that was good, and for once the preacher gave an Easter sermon that, though not good, was not bad.
As I was sitting there, they passed the offering plate. Now normally, if I'm in my church I'm tithing (or making best efforts. I've got to improve). If I'm visiting a church, I'll throw a $20 in the plate. At this church and churches I have to be at, but think are doctrinally unsound, I keep my wallet in my pocket.
So, my question to you reporters is this: Have any of you asked Barack Obama about his giving habits to Rev. Wright's church? Did he tithe or at least contribute financially to Trinity?
It's a question, if you were worth your salt, you would ask.
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A question for you reporters stopping by today 47 Comments (0 topical, 47 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
First he gives a lot of money to a nutcase (and that's probably as much money as some in the congregation take home).
Second, that ain't even close to "tithing" for Barry. That ain't even a tithe for his wife alone, much less the both of them.
*please note that this is in no way a comment that seeks to bait someone into a discussion about tithing.
would say that the money was going to help the poor in central Chicago, and that would be partially true. Indeed, more churches should reach out to the community.
By the way Eric, when you say churches not sound doctrinally, where are you going with that? I'm not being critical at all, in fact I think more Christians should say the same thing, if they really thought about it.
By doctrinally sound, I mean churches that have gotten away from:
(1) The Bible as the inerrant word of God.
(2) Jesus is the second person in the three person trinity triune, yet singular, God*.
(3) None can go to Heaven except by going through Christ.
(4) Christ was born of a virgin, died, and was resurrected on the third day.
(5) Christians who embrace the Lord will unreservedly embrace his teachings and, though struggle with sin during the whole of this life, work to overcome their sins though they might still fail.
*Clarified because I think if Brandozilla could read more into that statement than was intended, others could as well.
Fight On!
The essentials of the Christian faith, as opposed to disagreements that can still fit within the pale of orthodoxy.
Well, if you believe in free will you are going to hell, but I figured I would leave that one out of the basics.
;)
Good to know there may be another closet Calvinist in here.
Oh, I am quiet out of the closet about my Calvinism.
I'm in the non-heretical branch of Presbyterianism -- the PCA.
your statement reminds me of a funny thing that happened to me when I recently moved.
I was talking to a complete stranger on the phone (she was a friend of a friend who lived where I was moving to), and she was telling me about her Presbyterian church...really talking it up.
she finished by saying, "don't worry, we're the good kind of Presbyterians".
what I found funny is that she didn't tell me which it was, and she didn't know which I'd consider "the good kind".
FYI: I went to its website and I think it's "EPC"....
I still don't know the differences between them, however.
I graduated from Covenant in '91. And if you're in the PCA you'd better know about Covenant College. :-)
And quite open about it too :)
If I didn't love my pastor and church so much, I'd check out the Reformed S. Baptist Church down the road from me!
Brian
and more Churches need to learn to stand up for what they believe in, intead of just blending into being a good PC Church, while their followers known nothing about what they believe. #5 would need a few qualifiers like the working to overcome their sins, I know what you mean but technically their sins are already erased on the Cross.
As a Catholic we believe that God the father, the son and the holy spirit are co-equals and eternal, so your definition of the Catholic church being doctrinally unsound is a bit offensive.
I think you read more into what I have written than what I meant.
Do Catholics not believe that Christ is the second of the three in one trinity?
I'm sure they do and I'm sure that is doctrinally sound.
In terms of the order in which they are stated aloud or in writing yes, but in no way is Christ or the holy spirit deemed to be 2nd or third.
in other words the order is rather meaningless(more of tradition i guess), as all are eternal and co equals.
Brandozilla, Christ is the second person in the Godhead through order of revelation in the Bible, with the Holy Spirit being the third.
I totally agree and am with you on all points. In the vernacular, however, we refer to him as the second in the trinity, but I assume we all also understand him to be co-equal and eternal.
EE
I thought it was clear, Erick, but Brandozilla, if you know the Creed, you know the Filioque -- equal in placement, and second simply in order of naming.
I certainly don't get that he believes that Jesus and God are unequal....merely that when people think of the Trinity, they think of "Father, Son, Holy Spirit"...thereby making Christ the "Second Person"....
At least that's how I read it.
Great explanation of the Christian faith, Erick. I wish more people in church and, well, churches themselves would care about doctrinal soundness. Sadly, being doctrinally sound doesn't make people feel all warm and good inside. And that's what life's all about, feeling good, right?
Brian
christ doing the will of the father; the spirit doing the will of the father and christ. (Please don't let this comment blow up; I was just saying I've read that, I think in Hodge and Owen)
would say that the money was going to help the poor in central Chicago, and that would be partially true. Indeed, more churches should reach out to the community.
By the way Eric, when you say churches not sound doctrinally, where are you going with that? I'm not being critical at all, in fact I think more Christians should say the same thing, if they really thought about it.
... hey, my own grandmother used to donate to AIDS research, so what's your point?
...
No, not that kind of research, the cousin Cheney kind.
absentee
would say that the money was going to help the poor in central Chicago, and that would be partially true. Indeed, more churches should reach out to the community.
By the way Eric, when you say churches not sound doctrinally, where are you going with that? I'm not being critical at all, in fact I think more Christians should say the same thing, if they really thought about it.
I think the site was stuck when I posted
HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
The Rev. Wright's sermons are public, so is Obama's willing association with this man. Now, on the subject of tithing and offerings, I honestly think that's private business between Wright, Obama, and God. Let God deal with both men, if they have done something contrary to the Biblical teachings.
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Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.
First of all, if he is claining tax deductions for it, it should be public knowledge. Obama is, after all, asking Hillary! to release her tax forms, so he should do the same.
Secondly, your tithing is a way of supporting your church and its ministries. Here's the rub. Obama says he doesn't approve of the "divisive" rhetoric, yet he gives money to that church. We all know that when you tithe to the general fund, you don't get to pick and choose what your money is spent on. Obama's tithe is supporting Jeremiah! and his hate speech. Period. We, as a voting public, most definitely have a right to know just how much of Obama's treasure has gone to fund that hate speech over the years. I want to know how much he has given since the time he became an elected official in the IL state house. And I want to know now.
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Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.
it from the beginning, maybe.
Since he has continued to lie and downplay it. No.
He needs to answer the questions we have, starting with how much money he has given to support that hate speech and whether or not he took tax deductions for donating to such hate speech.
It is he who stood up, pointed to Wright and his church, and said "I'm a Christian."
HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
Red State (Eric)
I was planning on writing a similiar article but was going to try and dig up any scrap of information I could find, but I doubted anything would turn up. But back to the point, I too wondered what his generous giving habits were like.
The Partisan Report,
www.partisanreport.com
And goes to elucidate the difference between being endorsed by a nut and endorsing a nut yourself.
(and apologies as this is probably the wrong place to post it....)
But, as these statements are very much politically charged and divisive, does that affect the church's tax-exempt status? I just can't believe things like this can be said from the pulpit without some sort of consequence.
According to
http://hushmoney.org/501c3-facts.htm (no idea how reliable that is, seems somewhat over the top...)
it seems his statement fall right into the verboten category.
I don't know if it matters, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Brian
HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
Thanks Neil! I went back and reread, and yup, looks like the restriction is not on tax-exempt/deductible status, but for 501c3 status. 's what I get for skimming. I blame it on Slashdot :)
Interesting -- I was definitely ignorant on the issue. I'm glad to know differently. And, of course, knowing is half the battle.
Brian
HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I capped rather soon after they created that system in fact.
HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
Drop like a stone.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
And stopped reading the comments for the articles I do read? heh
HTML Help for Red Staters
"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
obsess on details that really don't concern them.
-I agree with the above commenter who pointed out that this is between God, Wright, and Obama. We shouldn't point to the the tax returns as some evidence that it is therefore our right analyze it...just because we can do something doesn't mean it is our right to know. Especially if it is government, not God, that gives us that right.
-When you tithe, you give to God as per his Word. It is then in God's hands. God can turn all things to good-whether or not we "like" this church or their pastor. If Obama was truly giving this money to God, then what church it went through is irrelevant. Whether Obama is mistaken in his theology, in his choice of church, etc., are all irrelevant to God's ability to use a proper tithe (I'll put a massive IMHO tag on this point).
-I don't consider my tithing (or often lack thereof) to be public domain. For that matter I don't consider the detail of my personal spiritual struggles to be public domain, either, no matter if they appear on my tax returns or not (to date I have never claimed my tithes as tax deductions). Neither is Obama's, or McCain's, etc. If a reporter asked this of them, I would greatly prefer if they told them it is none of their business. It is for God to judge them on spiritual matters. Further, given the venue of your complaint, I highly doubt you are offering this criticism as a Christian brother.
-I completely disagree with any attempts to disparage any candidate based on where or how much he tithes, whether he believes in the trinity, or whether he is as theologically sound as the next person. If you were picking Obama to be your pastor these would all be valid queries. You aren't. I think you do God and Christianity a disservice to use them as political weapons.
if Obama's tithe was going to Al Qaeda?
What about the reverse? Has anyone asked how much this church or the Rev. Wright has donated to Obama over the years?
As someone who is running for office of leader of the free world, I do think we should be asking these questions. "Put your money where your mouth is" has meaning. Where does Obama put his money?
in a completely ridiculous "analogy" (if that even qualifies), then you've already lost your point. If we decide our votes on crazy "what-if" scenarios, then anything and everything (by any candidate) becomes dangerous and threatening.
As for the reverse--how much this church has given to Obama--that is a valid question, in that if the church itself is donating to a political candidate, it raises all kinds of issues, legal and otherwise. If you are simply pondering the horrific idea of church-goers donating to the political campaign of a fellow church-goer, I think we can rest assured that many of them have, in Obama's case and many, many others. What's your point?
"Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich." ~ William F. Buckley, Jr.
...according to his tax returns. But you're right, Erick, they'll never ask him about it.
http://landofdafree.blogspot.com/