And Now a Word on the Romney Speech.
By Leon H Wolf Posted in 2008 | Mitt Romney | Mormonism — Comments (52) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Look, I know that the big buzz today is the Romney speech. I know that this is a hot topic today. That does not change the fact that while there are lots of good places for Baptists to tell Catholics they're not Christians (and vice-versa), and for everyone to tell Mormons that they're not Christians, RedState is not one of those places. This is a friendly reminder because a lot of our long time commenters and diarists seem to have forgotten, and this friendly reminder is better than the alternative.
Let me also say, as a personal matter (as opposed to a matter of site policy), that this entire discussion irritates the living daylights out of me. As I said here, I can't think of anything that's stupider, from a political perspective, than sending a message to one of the most loyal segements of your voting base that they are some sort of second-class citizens: fit to vote, but not actually to govern. It dismays me that there seem to be a lot of people (even here) who either outright think that or are sympathetic to the position, and I'm probably powerless to change that. I'm not going to go Hugh Hewitt on anyone, but I encourage everyone to think long and hard about what that attitude means, and what it's likely to get us down the road. We're not electing a pastor, we're electing a President. And if you think some Mormon beliefs sound crazy, you ought to consider how more mainline Christian beliefs sound to someone who hasn't grown up with them, and ponder whether the Bible might actually have something to say about that in the second half of 1 Corinthians 1.
I understand that there are valid reasons that some people don't want to vote for Romney that have nothing to do with his Mormonism, and that's fine. I just wish we could avoid what the media said we couldn't: the rejection of a candidate by a significant number of Republicans because of his religion - a religion, by the way, that votes overwhelmingly Republican.
[UPDATE]: You may have noticed that I did not actually mention anything about the speech. That is because I have not watched it and have no intention of watching it. As I have said before, it is irrelevant, from a political standpoint, whether Romney shares my religion at all, so long as he shares my values. And I am convinced that he does.
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And Now a Word on the Romney Speech. 52 Comments (0 topical, 52 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
"No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong." - Winston Churchill
Well said. And as a Catholic, let me say that I consider Mormons to be faithful allies in promoting a "Culture of Life" in this country. For that, I am very appreciative.
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"I die the King's good servant, and God's first." Saint Thomas More.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
In some respects, all this nonsense helps Romney. the Republican primary is a fifty state primary. You can't run on a southern strategy and expect to win. I think Romney looks more sympathetic now. He looks like the mature centrists. He is a Morman from Massachusetts who worked his tail off to appeal to voters in South Carolina and Iowa unlike Huckabee or Thompson who ca't seem to make a dent in New Hamshire or Michigan and couldnt seem to care less. Romney is looking moderate, sypathetic and reasonable - a fifty state candidate, while Huckabots and evangelicals or cornering themselves into a little box.
of bigotry, however artfully disguised.
Today, I have heard now three great speeches. First Romney, then Rush, now this. You sir are a true patriot!
As I said here, I can't think of anything that's stupider, from a political perspective, than sending a message to one of the most loyal segements of your voting base that they are some sort of second-class citizens: fit to vote, but not actually to govern. It dismays me that there seem to be a lot of people (even here) who either outright think that or are sympathetic to the position, and I'm probably powerless to change that. I'm not going to go Hugh Hewitt on anyone, but I encourage everyone to think long and hard about what that attitude means, and what it's likely to get us down the road. We're not electing a pastor, we're electing a President. And if you think some Mormon beliefs sound crazy, you ought to consider how more mainline Christian beliefs sound to someone who hasn't grown up with them, and ponder whether the Bible might actually have something to say about that in the second half of 1 Corinthians 1.
I understand that there are valid reasons that some people don't want to vote for Romney that have nothing to do with his Mormonism, and that's fine. I just wish we could avoid what the media said we couldn't: the rejection of a candidate by a significant number of Republicans because of his religion - a religion, by the way, that votes overwhelmingly Republican.
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Give me juicy, Red meat
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I have been sick of this subject for the past few months and this speech just compounded my illness. Then again, maybe im just a policy wonk who is skeptical like that.
Just so we're clear, your diary on this topic crossed the line. I hope not to see another one like it.
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The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.
1) Mormonism IS NOT Christianity. Period.
While the two faiths may share common values, which is important in noting someone's core, it would be a lie to say that Romney is a Christian.
There have been clearly given directives before this that this sort of thing is out of line. An email is not going to change that.
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The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.
selectively taking one comment from the whole thing does not do the piece justice.. and I am unaware of which directive you are talking about.
The piece, when read in its entirety, points to how I am tired of this matter and believe that it is a political manuever to neutralize Huckabee's rise.
I am not sure how this crosses any lines.
thanks.
RedState is not the place for people to say who is and who is not Christian. You say, "Catholics are not Christians," or "Baptists are not Christians," or "Mormons are not Christians," and that crosses the line. As I made clear in the first paragraph of this post, and as Thomas has made clear before.
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The Red Sox Republican: Burkeanism, Baseball, and Sundries.
Extremely offensive. What authority do you have to declare that someone who says they are a Christian is lying.
The bigotry and the exploitation of it have appalled me as well.
at national review on what should be importance of religion, as you read his entire article.
http://frum.nationalreview.com/
"...people are going to realize: that speech did not work. Here's why:
"There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind. My church's beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths. Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history. These are not bases for criticism but rather a test of our tolerance."
To be blunt, Romney is saying:
It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"
But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"
It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference. Once Romney answered any question about the content of his religious faith, he opened the door to every question about the content of his religious faith. This speech for all its eloquence will not stanch the flow of such questions.
Bad move - and one with very unfair results to a candidate who all must acknowledge is a man who has proven that his mind actually operates in a highly empirical, data-driven, and uncredulous way.
Had he focused instead on simply arguing that presidents need only prove themselves loyal to American values, he would have been on safe ground. Instead, he over-reached, super-adding to his civic appeal an additional appeal to voters who demand faith in Jesus as a requirement in a president. That is an argument that will not work - and a game Mitt Romney cannot win. "
But more toward what is at the persons core when making decisions. That is what matters to me most.
The rest varies from person to person greatly - even within denominations.
I would like to get back to the sanity of policy discussion, if we could.
If a person chooses to focus on that part of his speech, then yeah, I'd agree with you. But Mitt's speech was much more than that. Taken as a whole, his mention of his religion is a non-issue to conservatism. To me, and I'd dare say many people of faith and values, if not religion, this speech was awesome. He brought this debate back to where it belongs. A debate on the intent of the founding fathers original intent. I don't think there is a conservative among us who is not distressed by the moving away from the framers original concepts regarding many of the amendments. (2nd amendment being one of them)
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We would also like to know your advice for somebody like my daughter, who's going to graduate in two years, advice that you would give a young person.
SEC. RUMSFELD: Advice for a young person. Study history.
Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion
Mitt Romney is fortunate that few non-Mormon Americans know anything about his religion and this speech did little to correct that.
Google "ExposeRomney" or "Eternal Progression" or "Brigham Young comments on blacks" or "The Mormon Wildcard" to find out what he's hoping slips past you.
Most religions require faith and I'm not saying that Romney wouldn't make a good manager, but he's clearly been deceptive to the point that even the political pundits know he's like about specifics.
Do you honestly thing the Evangelicals would vote for him if they understood the Mormon concept of "Eternal Progression"?
Would people of color vote for him if they knew his religion associated dark skin with sin and punishment?
Would secularists vote for him if they knew a famous Mormon saying was "When the prophet speaks, the thinking [i.e. your thinking] is done."
Before you say I'm bigoted, why don't you look up what the Mormon religion says in its scriptures about other religions. We'll I'll give you a starting point. In the Mormon scriptures, which Mormons are taught to be the WORD OF GOD, it states, "All other religions are an abomination in God's eyes." Now how's that for tolerance.
If you think his speech told you he's an independent thinker, well think again.
You may be close to the all time record for BLAM's set by numerous Paulbots a couple of months ago.
Congratulations...bigot!
Let's see if you last 15-minutes.
We're at 12-and-change now.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
And now for your enlightened views on Jews, Muslims and Catholics. Keep writing, nutjobs like you make Romney look sympathetic.
history of Christianity, many churches had positions similar to the above.
For example, some Protestant divines of the 18th century were against smallpox vaccination because it "thwarted God's will".
Hello? Yes, this is Thomas. Can I help you?
Hi, I'm Irony, and I'm here to bother you today! Do you have a few minutes?
No, sorry, I'm sick and I have work to do. Maybe later...
Wait wait wait! Have I got one for you! I'm going to drop a comment attacking Mitt Romney's religion in a frontpage post -- wait for this -- about your, yes your already-enunciated policy forbidding precisely that topic! You'll be amazed!
Gee, sorry, but I've had enough irony for one day, what with Huey Long running for the GOP nomination for the Presidency. Maybe some other day?
By the way, please take your idiot commenter with you.
.Click
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We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
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"I die the King's good servant, and God's first." Saint Thomas More.
Beautiful. You do it with such style and elegance!
The Unofficial RedState FAQ
“You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say. ” - Martin Luther
It was lurking right after "ExposeRomney.com".
I said it right after "Do you honestly thing the Evangelicals would vote for him if they understood the Mormon concept of "Eternal Progression"?"
By the time you said "Before you say I'm bigoted", it was already in cement.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.
Good to see this.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman
Again, I've forgotten which heer to use, so I'll compromise. :)
Good job, Leon.
And I'm still a FredHead but Mitt is a very strong #2 and if Fred doesn't pan out, call me a Romneybot.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.
Thank you Leon. I'm glad that someone has stepped up to say that RedState is no place to judge whether or not someone is Christian or not. As a Mormon, I'd like to put it out there that I feel horrible when someone says that Mormons aren't Christian or that they are a cult. I come here to catch up on politics, not to see people judging my religion. It sucks when someone judges a religion, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it in public. Other than right now of course...
And I agree, the MSM is making a bigger deal about his religion than anyone else.
Courage becomes a living and an attractive virtue when it is regarded not only as a willingness to die manfully, but also as a determination to live decently.
This is silly.
Redstate is advocating political correctness and prior restraint on speech of obvious but sensitive matters ?
Lets ask this would it be all right to say that Muslims, Jews and Atheists aren't godfearing baptists ?
While I have certainly grown tired of seeing theology argued here, this is not our kind of solution. Though, I am not certain what is this aint it.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
We ban many kinds of content already. Remember the Ron Paul thing?
A site this large, with this many users, simply needs these kinds of rules in order to remain useful and stuck to its original purpose.
Republican activism is not helped by comparative theology, and so I'm glad such topics are banned here.
I will just observe that with HHWNBN it was a ban on a class of posters not on the content. The content is still allowed just not from them.
The same holds true on most of the verbotten content. Its banned from people suspected of having impure motives in its raising.
As I stated at the beginning, I agree with the ban but I am certain its a wrong solution. I just don't have anything better to offer so I will leave it at that.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
To this day, Ronulans are allowed to come here, play nice a while by making good faith efforts to post and be part of the community while participating in non-RP discussions, and then they get green lighted to shill for their guy.
In fact at least one Ronulan has been given that go-ahead.
As for other banned content, no, itd oesn't matter if you've been here a week or two years, if it's not allowed, it's not allowed.
how different European democracies and America are in picking qualified poliical candidates. Religion is still very much a major part of American politics, while it plays nearly no role in European politics. Maybe that's too simplistic, but I do have to wonder about that sometimes. Moreover, I have to wonder how Europeans are viewing our election of the next President when they hear that what a supposedly qualified candidate is out of picture, because he got his religion wrong?
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Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.
Well said Leon. Let's just hope that people listen.