Huckabee to speak at church pastored by anti-Catholic bigot
By Alexham Posted in 2008 | Mike Huckabbe — Comments (266) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Dear Governor Huckabee,
You don't know me, but I am your lone supporter among the contributors here at RedState. Anyone who has read my posts on a regular basis understands that I support your candidacy primarily because I truly believe: (1) you are the most eloquent spokesman for a "Culture of Life" of all the presidential candidates; and (2) having a true-blue social conservative as a top-tier presidential candidate advances the pro-life causes I care for so deeply.
That having been said, I am also a devout Catholic, and I have to say that I am troubled by your decision to preach to Cornerstone Church this coming Sunday in San Antonio, Texas; a church pastored by a raving anti-Catholic bigot.
Don't get me wrong. I understand that a pastor's views should not be imputed to those who attend his church, and that most of the good folks at Cornerstone are almost certainly not anti-Catholic bigots. I am also well aware that other presidential candidates have spoken to anti-Catholic universities and churches in past elections. Finally, I am confident that your decision to preach to Cornerstone is in no way meant to be an endorsement of this bigot's views. Nevertheless, I agree with K-Lo that you should cancel the appearance. It's a bad political move, and it also sends mixed signals to your faithful Catholic supporters. And if some of the good folks at Cornerstone are upset by the decision, well, then so be it. Be presidential. Take a stand. Let your Catholic supporters know that pandering to bigots is not an acceptable vice, even in presidential politics.
If you aren't willing to stand up for a substantial block of your supporters, then why should we do the same for you?
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Huckabee to speak at church pastored by anti-Catholic bigot 266 Comments (0 topical, 266 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
But its not bigoted to think that the Catholic church as an institution is prophesied about it a bad way in Revealation. As a staunch protestant I think the Catholic church did many bad things both theologically and politically. However, many many Catholics are great Christians. If Hagee is along the lines of saying Catholics are bad people than yes he is a bigot. If he is just saying the institution says done much wrong in opressing righteous by faith... than that's his religous view and one shared by protestants through the centuries untill perhaps recently.
BTW, My Dad's familly were staunch Catholics. My Dad was a monk for awhile. My Grandparents were Catholics untill their death. I have nothing but respect for Catholics. But that doesn't mean I don't think they have some terrible theology. Same with Mitt. I think the system of Theology and is wrong and in some dangerous, and I don't think that makes me a bigot.
The problem with Hagee and his ilk - and this is my last post on the subject - is not that he noted the Catholic Church has done some bad stuff in the past. It's his view of the future of the Catholic Church from the Revelation that is the problem.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
I think the view of the Catholic Church as the prophesied Anti Christ, was pretty well respected protestant theology at one time. I have a problem with being called a bigot becasue I think a particular oragnizaton is a bad organization. I don't think the people are bad people. A bigot is someone who hates people not one who has a nagative view of an organization. Otherwise we would be bigots against Iran because we don't think highly of their government. I don't want to start on a theological discussion. But I am a little alarmed that the we're headed down to the point where its unacceptable for one to have a nagative view of a church organization based upon their theology.
I'm just alarmed by the religous political corectness movement that if someone has a nagative view of a church or religion they should be branded as a bigot and ignored.
he is a bigot. If he's saying the church is bad he just happends to have a theological view that some of you find offensive. I think think he would be pretty well in line with Luther.
I don't care what you believe. I don't care what Hagee preaches. I don't care what the US Council of Catholic Bishops says. But then again, you're not running for POTUS. Neither is Hagee. Neither are any of the Bishops.
The issue I have the Huckmeister is that he is a pandering piece of [edited]. He hasn't had a major campaign stop in a while (as in lots of people there) and when he picks one, gee whiz! it's at a church. When he shows up at secular stops he is frequently criticized for his policies and his record. He figures Hagee will be a warm place to land.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Would I be disqualified becasue I thought the Catholic church is spoken of nagatively in Revealation. It wouldn't effect my policy as I'm for absolute freedom of religion. I would not do any thing against the church or against the church or against people. But that doesn't mean I don't have a fairly nagative view of the organization due to some of its Theology and its past. Would having that theological view disqualify someone like me from being president. I'm not saying Huck should go to this place. I think the Catholic church also probably has some good points to it to. But I do have some views of Prophecy that I suppose maybe some of you would consider bigoted - its not a favorable view of the church system. I don't think what someone think of other churches should disqualify them from being president. As long as they are commited to religous liberty.
And with this I'm done.
The point is, he's running for... oh, yeah. President. Of the United States. He can do divisive crap like this and avoid issues and platforms and his record, or he can try to show us that he's got some kind of vision for the country that's bigger than Cornerstone Church. He's a one horse sleigh. I hope he enjoys his quite retirement in Arkansas. Or anywhere but Arizona.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
And yea, it's a big deal. Kind of like believing that minorities are inferior to whites. Simply saying "Hey, don't worry, as President I won't take any action against minorities!" isn't going to make it acceptable. It doesn't work that way.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman
its a view against the organization. Just because you have a nagative view against NAACP doesn't mean you're racist. Do you think a president isn't qualified if he has a nagative view of a Society of Pagans. What's being bigoted is to require someone to not have any nagative view of a theological system in order to be President. That's just taking political correctness to far. Its not bigoted to be against a religion. Religion by nature, requires you to believe that your beliefs are correct and that there are other religions that have falsehood, and are wrong.
who thinks that Christianity is a superior religion and that other relgion are false religions, that should be rejected. Or maybe you're religous bigotry only applies to Conservative protestants who don't think the reformation was a bunch of hoopla over nothing.
I grew up a southern baptist, so I got a thorough indoctrination of what was wrong with the Catholic Church. BUT!
It does not pass the test of time, nor the test set forth in the Bible"Ye shall know them by their works" The truth is that protestant Christians have as their most natural allies in this world, Catholic Christians.
Identifying the Church in Rome as the whore of Babylon is neither sound theologically, nor a very Christlike view of our fellow believers. It is so nineteenth century.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
I don't see the Catholic church as being the only whore of Babylon, I see the whole system of Christian churches that have gone astray. And you confuse me for being against Catholic believers. I'm not, I think very higly of fellow Catholic believers, and I even think the church has done much good. But their system of theology is wrong and deadly wrong. I happen to be someone who doesn't think the reformation was just a bunch of hoopla over nothing. And I certainly don't think that makes me a bigot. I the bigots are those who don't think its acceptable to have a nagative view of another religion.
- Now not the place to discuss theology
You had it right the first time.
Drink Good Coffee. You can sleep when you're dead.
defend against someone saying your theology is 18th century bigotism. All I said was that its not bigoted to hold opinions against system of theology or an organization. By not discussing I mean I'm not going to try and defend whether or not my interpretation of prophecy is sound theology. It doens't mean I'm not going to argue against claims that my religous beliefs are bigoted, when I think highly of Catholics and even many of their beliefs.
If you don't think it's bigoted to think that the Catholic Church is prophesied in bad way in the book of Revelation, that's your perogative. But you know, the Catholic Church was around for over 1500 years compiling and preserving Scripture, its monks and scholars meticulously copied and interpreted it, and it was Archbishop Langton who instituted the numerical chapter and verse structure which you use today. We all owe a debt of Gratitude to the Catholic Church, whether you realize it or not, and it is a big reason why the Bible is in your hands today. You could perhaps at least show some respect for the Catholic Church, whilst maintaining your disagreement with it. Otherwise, you have no different a mentality than the Protestants who fought against the Catholic populations during the Post-Reformation Religious Wars.
As to Huckabee- you are recognized by the company you keep, and that company will eventually influence you in some way. If he shows solidarity with Hagee, he can kiss the Catholic vote goodbye.
he buys into knowing who the anti-Christ in Revelation is. I agreed with him (and Luther, Calvin and my Southern Baptist theology proffessor/pastor/preacher) when he said, that given all the parts of the Bible that are crystal clear, we could spend a lifetime trying to follow them without trying to predict the future.
Amen brother
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Leave it to Huckabee to run a potentially thriving campaign into the ground.
Can he offend anyone else?
Is he being too kind to the Jews? Ignoring the anti-semite voters in Iowa?
Romney/Barbour 2008
Your being too nice Alexham. That reverend is a stupid piece of sh*t and Huckabee just confirmed all of my suspicions about his campaign.
Mitt Romney accepted the support of Bob Jones III, who is openly hostile towards Mormons and Catholics. Actually, if we use your reasoning, it's worse for Romney to accept the support of Jones, since he’s openly hostile towards his religion, but he accepted it anyway.
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
If Romney were running on his religion, accepting the support of Bob Jones III would be confusing and disturbing. As it is, Romney is running on values and ability, and Jones is endorsing on that basis.
Huckabee, on the other hand, is running on his religion.
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American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
Take you all night to come up with it?
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
Gosh man, there are simply no limits to your talents.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
You flatter. Yourself.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
Rather, I'm just someone who's been called worse by better and better by worse - and vice-versa. Just sort of rolls off the skin after a while.
Ta.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
Oh yeah -- that's really been in evidence this evening!
Tell you what: my Christmas gift to you? The last word.
But since you bring up adopting values for convenience, let's talk about it.
Which candidate is universally considered "squeaky-clean" in his dealings and a strong family man? Willing to put everything down to help his fellow man in a time of need?
Now, which candidate has a past of corruption - a candidate who is a whited sepulchre, exploiting his religion to create one image to provide a cover for what he really is: a two-bit crook?
Romney who saw his Dad march with Martin Luther King, who was endorsed by the NRA, who is a life long hunter. That Romney.
Huckabee does hunt at least. And yes he is a good family man. Geez. Sleaze
It's not as if I know anything that you don't. I just don't see how invoking Huckabee's family is helpful to his campaign. His campaign is probably better off not talking about his family.
Hysterics are unbecoming and indicative of a prejudicial mind.
I'm sure Governor Romney is indeed "universally considered 'squeaky-clean' in his dealings" in the business world. Only the gullible, the inattentive, and the bought believe this is true in his political life.
I'll explain more once I get back from marching with Dr King.
Huckabee is not a two-bit crook. He's been in it for hundreds of thousands of dollars, among other benefits.
Only the gullible, the inattentive, and the bought believe this is true in his political life.
Romney suffered no ethical lapses as Governor.
....have been rather notable features of his candidacy.
As for Huckabee, if you have actual evidence of corruption, and are withholding it from the authorities, I recommend rectifying that swiftly.
in business or as Governor. Yet a supporter of Huckabee sees ethical lapses plaguing Romney's campaign. Huckabee, a dirty politician who whines at substantive differentiation, and sees a conspiracy of "educated people" out to get him around every corner and behind every column.
What could the simplest explanation for all this be?
As for Huckabee, if you have actual evidence of corruption, and are withholding it from the authorities, I recommend rectifying that swiftly.
Arkansas' Ethics Commission has beat me to it.
Well, my friend, if you don't think Mitt Romney's elastic sense of truthfulness and principles constitute an ethical lapse -- or more properly, a series of them -- then we must simply agree that we have differing standards of ethics.
Romney incorporates a story from his family history into speeches without rigorously checking specific dates, times, and places first, a columnist can't find definitive proof, and lefty bloggers go nuts, because it is hypothetically possible that he lied.
Huckabee is caught lying repeatedly on television.
Yes, we do have differing standards of ethics.
Romneys not pardoning Circosta is, in my mind, and ethical lapse because it points to his thinking of the oval office after having taken the oath of a Governor.
Governor Huckabee for President.
Too bad for some of the future victims that he wasn't thinking about the oval office too.
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it could have been 10 times worse. I applaud him for leaving so much money on the table.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
I appreciate your blog. It seems very heartfelt. I want to ask you one question. Did you agree with Bush's decision (and countless others) to speak at Bob Jone's University? I believe they are of the same "mold" as Hagee.
I will say this, if Hagee asked me to speak, I would. I would take the pulpit and say exactly what I felt "lead" to say.
I understand your concern. However, last week Mike spoke to a group of Catholics.
Thanks for your blog. Happy Holidays.
if he could make a buck on it.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
I'm as unimpressed with Huck as anyone but I don't for an instant doubt the man's religious convictions or the sincerity with which he applies them to politics.
"No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong." - Winston Churchill
Huck stikes me as the type of christian who follows the "Do as I say, not as I do." mantra. It's just a feeling I have after hearing about some of the "gifts" and other ethical issues.
worth of goodies over and above his $67,000 salary (which I will freely admit is chump change, but he sought the job), and after seeing that pardons might have been for sale in Arkansas, and after noting that he gave the $70,000 worth of furniture back to the Governor's Mansion only after what was in essence a plea bargain, I have every doubt about his convictions, his motivation and his sincerity.
On this one, I'm solidly with Tbone. Old farts stick together.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
between a man who would steal furniture and sell pardons and one who perform abortions. I don't think you can reason from one to the other.
Of course, you might not want either as your president . . .
Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net
International Editor of
the Huckster would perform abortions. He is, after all, a politician which means he never actually "does" anything for money. He would probably just skim money from the clinic licensing process or get a kickback from the coat hanger manufacturers association.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
That's why when he left the Arkie Governor's dual wide mansion he followed the instruction in John 5:8.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---G
As Rush said today, Huckabee relies on identity politics to garner support. "I am an uber-Christian, so vote for me".
He must do this in order to gloss over his liberal record and liberal policies. Hagee is a pastor who has a large congregation of politically active Christians. Huckabee likely doesn't care what Hagee says or stands for as long as he can sign up more of "God's soldiers" as he puts it.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
I'm a conservative Catholic as well. I wasn't thrilled when Pres. Bush went to Bob Jones university, but I continued to support him.
I think overall the loose alliance within the conservative movement between Conservative Catholics and Evangelicals is a good thing and still a viable relationship.
But it is sad to see some major Evangelical leaders still so hostile to Catholics. Our history is not perfect (suprise!- the domninant human institution for 1600 years made some mistakes), but especially after everything JPII did to promote the culture of life and anti-communism, I wish I'd see a little more love from other Conservative Christians in the US.
at a prayer meeting sponsored by a Fransiscan Priest, and who has had the pleasure to work in a number of ministries all over the country with brothers in Christ who happen to be Catholic, I hate to say that I'm not surprised.
This really reinforces my very negative opinion of Mike Huckabee. I've been saying for a while that his ads and his promotional material make it appear that he is running for Pastor in Chief, not Commander in Chief. This certainly goes a long way toward reinforcing that opinion. (NOTE: I'm not stating this as "fact", simply my opinion.)
I would have expected this from HWMNBN. If I had to guess, I would guess that Pastor Mike will be there and will be unapologetic for either his appearance or Hagee's pronouncements. I would also like to know what he's doing in a church. That's not a place to be campaigning - although I really don't care if Cornerstone loses their 501c3 - and it's a really strange place to make issue/policy statements. And it's not in either Iowa or NH.
Alex, you have every right to be deeply offended by this. Heck, I am.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
trying to be "objective" about Pastor Mike. He is, IMO, a piece of [edited], is dishonest to the core, and is totally unqualified to do anything but sell snake oil to buffoons.
At least I don't spend my time trying to justify his latest gaffe or the latest rock that's rolled over to reveal either a complete lack of honest/ethics or even a shred of common sense.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
a claim of objectivity with Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, Wm Jefferson, Jessie Jackson, or Huey P Long either.
Crooks, liars and thieves all and franly, good company for Mike Huckabee.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
I'm wondering whether we think "objectivity" means the same thing, here.
I'm on the dictionary's side, myself.
because my non-dictionary meaning refers to giving facts and Huck supporters Kool Aid based opinions the same weight. The Huckster has a real talent for blowing off uncomfortable facts about his record, his honesty and his ethics that would put WJC to shame.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
He declined to denounce straight out a supporter spreading anti-Catholic smears against Brownback. Huckabee eventually dubbed Brownback a "Christian," but never apologized, which upset Brownback.
And I understand how Alexham feels, and believe me, my wife and I attended Hagee's church for a brief period of time until he started his political rants. And yes, anyone who defended Romney accepting Bob Jones III endorsement should defend Huckabee on this issue. And yes, it's actually worse to accept the support of someone who is openly hostile towards your religion. What I’m saying is you’re headed down a slippery slope if you say a candidate should not go speak at a place because the person or institution is hostile towards something you identify with.
read this (from James Antle at AmSpec Blog):
John McCain, Newt Gingrich, Tom DeLay, Joe Lieberman, and Rick Santorum (who is Catholic) have all appeared with John Hagee. And that's just from my personal recollection and some cursory googling -- I'm sure the list of politicians who have appeared with Hagee is even longer. None of them did so because of anti-Catholicism. They appeared with Hagee because of his leadership in Christians United for Israel. President George W. Bush gave a welcoming statement to the group's Washington Summit earlier this year. Hagee has advised Texas Gov. Rick Perry on divestment from Iran.
I'm no Hagee fan myself, but let's be honest: By appearing at Cornerstone Church, Mike Huckabee is trying to appeal to that constituency -- conservative evangelicals and other Christian Zionists -- not the miniscule anti-Catholic vote. If Hagee's theology or other views make him beyond the pale, then there are a lot of politicians who should be condemned.
I agree with every word "Gawdfather" writes here. Don't buy in to K-Lo's hysterics where Huckabee is concerned.
is a truly devout Catholic to run on the GOP side.
There are plenty of Anti-Catholic Bigots.
Frankly,I'm insulted as a person of Italian Catholic and German Jewish Ancestry that Hagee would actually pretend that Protestants were helping Jews in the Holocaust. So, I guess I know his feelings about our German Pope who's family hid Jews in their home and helped get Jews out of German. Not to mention the Catholic Church was persecuted by Hitler too.
Hagee and his band of merry bigots do not need to be even acknowledged.
Rudy is a religious Catholic but, where his personal views clash, his faith loses. That is very unfortunate. I think his failures on abortion and gays should not be confused on the lack of faith of a man whom spent his 20s debating whether to enter the Priesthood and could not start his homework without saying a prayer.
I musta missed that one.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
but, to be pro-choice, pro-gay, and have been divorced twice(annulled once) shows he is not a true Catholic.
Doesn't mean that I won't vote for him. He is a good man despite his flaws.
my point being, the Catholic Church has a formal way of dealing with virtually every issue. And I know they have a formal way of dealing with this one, just ask John Kerry. Bottom line, not your call.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
It would be interesting to see what that would do to the political alignment to have a conservative Catholic get the GOP nomination. When you consider that Pres. Bush actually won a slim majority of the Catholic vote against nominally Catholic Kerry, it makes you wonder what an actual Catholic R could do.
An important part of D's remaining voting block are a segment of Catholics who grew up lower-middle/middle class as Dems, and especially cemented as Dems with JFK/RFK. Reagan peeled a lot of these folks away with his landslide victories. If we could permanently blow out that segment of the D base, they'd basically be left with the black vote and the feminist vote and not much else.
running in 2020 if Bobby Jindal or somebody else doesn't beat me to it.
I make it my goal in life to end the existence of the Democrat party as a viable national party even to liberals.
will be dominated by not only Evangelical Protestants but, also devout Catholics and Hasidic Jews.
I am amazed by the loyalty of Hisidim to the GOP. They are always the base of support for Republicans in my area. And with 8-12 kids per family they will swing the Jewish vote to the GOP in NY and NJ over the next generation.
I believe if Catholics felt at home in the GOP rather than a guest of honor that the table, I believe that the Northeast and Midwest would go Red.
The GOP brought the South home, its about time to bring home the Catholics.
I'm a hard core Catholic myself surrounded by Catholics and you won't believe how many of them voted for Clinton let alone Kerry. Catholics in this country (in my experience) vote their values, not their identity (which confuses the crud out of me since you'd think we'd have a closer set of values), so I doubt a Catholic R would really affect the vote much at all.
"basically be left with the black vote" That's where I think a key to peeling off democrat support lies. Let's face it, the majority of blacks hold Christian values. If somehow someone could break down the wall (Jackson and Sharpton?) that prevents them from seeing which party they most identify with, I think we could deal a severe blow to the democrat party, and more importantly actually help black americans more!
What's sickening about this is that Huckabee knows all eyes are on him. He knows people are scrutinizing him for Mormon baiting. He knows his Baptist Minister condescension has irked many. Yet, he makes this decision anyway.
If he did this earlier, I'd excuse it as a harmless mistake. Maybe he was naive. But he makes this decision just a few days after he had his Christmas ad heavily criticized for having a "floating cross" (which I personally thought was much ado about nothing). He knows the consequences and doesn't care. It's Huckabee rubbing it in. It's his I'm not going to pander to Easter eiltes moment - here's spit in your eye. Does Huckabee even know any Catholics? Does he even know the size of the Catholic vote? Could he really be that stupid?
understand that Mike has to be president to all. Just because he is speaking to this group does not mean he supports their ideas. I don't believe Mike would do that. Anyway, I do understand how you must feel. Though you are not the only supporter of Mike Huckabee on Redstate.
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Disclaimer: I am a member of a state-wide executive committee that is affiliated with Governor Mike Huckabee's campaign for the GOP presidential nomination
but he's one of only two or three who put together a cogent argument based on the issues. Present company excepted.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Alexham is the only Huckabee supporter on this site that can make a reasoned argument for his man. As a result, he's the only one most of us Huck despisers will read and consider.
By pandering to Hagee- an unvarnished scoundrel and an openly anti-Catholic bigot and Televangelist huckster, Huckabee just lost our Catholic family vote and I suspect the votes of millions of other Catholics. This is beyond the pale. Speaking in Hagee's "Church" is the racial equivalent of accepting an invitation to speak to a gathering headed by David Duke. Time to re-think a McCain presidency given his changed views of tax cuts and immigration.
And please, really -- Google before buying into Kathryn Jean Lopez's tripe. I did, and lo:
Israeli bombs fell on Lebanon for a second week last July, the Rev. John Hagee of San Antonio arrived in Washington with 3,500 evangelicals for the first annual conference of his newly founded organization, Christians United For Israel.
At a dinner addressed by the Israeli ambassador, a handful of Republican senators and the chairman of the Republican Party, Mr. Hagee read greetings from President Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel and dispatched the crowd with a message for their representatives in Congress.
Now, as a former Catholic myself with a great deal of esteem for the Church, I think Hagee's theology and anti-Catholicism is, well, stupid. That said: if John Hagee is worthy company for "a handful of Republican senators, "the chairman of the Republican Party," "President Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel," then why can't Mike Huckabee speak to his congregation. (Let's not even get started on the double-standard implicit where Bob Jones is concerned.)
Let me remind you of something Ronald Reagan said when confronted with evidence that a small group of racists was supporting his campaign: "I'm not signing on to their agenda -- they're signing on to mine." With respect, if you're working on Mike Huckabee's behalf, I suggest giving him the benefit of the doubt, and not rushing to scold him at the behest of his enemies -- especially when those enemies, as in this case, have a long track record of what we may charitably call misrepresentation.
condemned their racism.
The more I see of Huck, the I believe he's RonPaul without Ron's high ethical standards.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
he's speaking in front of several thousand people who do not endorse their pastors views on Catholics. I can guarantee you everyone who showed up at a white supremacist event was racist.
Back in your cave mikeyc. They foot the bill for Hagee to be able to spew his crap. They buy his books. They buy his tapes. And this is not an "oh, BTW" issue for Hagee and Cornerstone, he's very, VERY upfront about it and it's an important part of their teaching of the end times.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
them endorse the level of his bigotry towards Catholics. And please do not get personal, mbecker. and just for the record, I'm not a John Hagee fan.
Like most congregations, lots of people - maybe even a majority - show up for the sake of showing up. But the bottom line is the same. His congregation - both at the church and on TV - foot the bill for his crap.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
"And please do not get personal, mbecker." That's a little much to ask of him mike. Mbecker is sort of like Redstate watch dog, he makes sure that only people with thick skin stay around. Take it from someone who has been awarded like at least two "Mbecker Raving Lunatic awards". He might not get by with it, except he takes care of Franz and we really don't want to tick off Franz.
I didn't even note he was an "idiot" or a "raving lunatic". Some people just aren't up life in the big city.
And it's Mrs908 who takes care of Franz. He doesn't trust me to do the job right - and as usual, he's right about that. And you are absolutely right, you DON'T want to tick of The Prince.
Merry Christmas.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Reagan spoke to many groups in which he did not personally agree. All politicians do. And Mike Huckabee and all the other candidates will do it.
I'll stick with the sentiments I've expressed in my post.
I've acknowledged that this sort of thing has been done in the past, but that hardly makes it right. If a racist started a prolife organization, I would not associate with it, given that there are plenty of other prolife groups that don't have idiots at the helm.
In short, this kind of pandering needs to stop. It is time to start shaming these people, as opposed to allowing them to stay in positions of power and influence. Hagee holds repulsive views about my faith that go far beyond reasonable theological disagreement. Now, if he wants to maintain these bigoted views, he is certainly entitled to do so; but I have an opportunity to shine a light on his bigotry, and to encourage a good man to rise above petty politics and do the right thing. That means far more to me than marching lock-step with other Huckabee supporters in defending this decision (not that I am including you in this category).
As Governor Huckabee said to Mitt Romney during an exchange at one of the debates, "We're better than that." Well, I agree, and Mike Huckabee is better than this.
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Disclaimer: I am a member of a state-wide executive committee that is affiliated with Governor Mike Huckabee's campaign for the GOP presidential nomination
and appreciate your position. But having been in and around politics for over 50 years I have to say that most if not all candidate find themselves in position to talk to people or groups that they disagree with. Yes, his views on catholism are extreme, and really should be denounced. I am not sure a person running for President of the United States can do that. I think because of the position you are in you should talk to Mike directly about this rather than discuss it on a site that is already so anti-Huchabee.
I urge you, though, to consider the following. In your post here:
1) You're not diminishing anti-Catholicism
2) You're not discrediting the proponents of anti-Catholicism.
3) You are harming your choice for President of the United States.
4) You are lending your credibility to media figures who should not have it.
I'm the last guy to speak in favor of pragmatism versus principle -- probably to my own discredit -- but I do urge you to consider whether you're comfortable with the effect, rather than the intent, of what you do here.
If I had a pro-Rudy blog, I'd be remiss not to mention something that he says (or does) that runs contrary to what I think about conservatism (say, his belief that Roe vs. Wade is a good law).
-- of reinforcing a double standard and lending credence to bad actors. As I said above.
No one here is questioning Alexham's right to express an opinion on his chosen candidate's activities. I merely question his judgment in the manner in which it was done.
If I had a pro-Rudy blog, I'd be remiss not to mention something that he says (or does) that runs contrary to what I think about conservatism (say, his belief that Roe vs. Wade is a good law).
And have rather enjoyed your defense of Huckabee in the face of unsubstantive arguments from those who oppose him.
Seriously, I think mostly you are all smart people, but the continuous effort to put in the hearts and minds of Republican primary voters that Mike Huckabee is a lying, corrupt, anti-Catholic, bigot, hick, is disturbing. I mean that literally. I am seriously bothered by some of this. Most of all, because it hurts the conservative movement and the Republican party and lends crediblity to those on the left who would love nothing more to see the Republican coalition fracture.
Alex,
I have very much enjoyed your writings on Huckabee, and although I understand where you are coming from, I got to wonder if this is the result of some battle fatigue.
This is a good man who doesn't hate Catholics, and I think deep down that you know that in your heart of hearts.
"I believe in grace, because I have seen it. In peace, because I have felt it. In forgiveness, because I needed it."
-George W. Bush
But he is associating himself with someone who clearly does. All I've done is suggested that doing so is a bad idea.
___________________________________________________________
Disclaimer: I am a member of a state-wide executive committee that is affiliated with Governor Mike Huckabee's campaign for the GOP presidential nomination
Interesting thoughts. Good thoughts.
Again, I would note the source and remind people of a trip W. made to Bob Jones in 2000.
This is precisely why I will not vote for Huckabee under any circumstances. Birds of a feather flock together. When you play with fire, you get burnt. Using religion to get the nomination is unworthy of being a president. You can not be president of only those who agree with your religious philosophy. I have long considered Huckabee to be a religious bigot, have said so for a long time, and I will never vote for him under any circumstances. Huckabee has done more damage to the republican party than any candidate I have seen since I started voting for Ronald Reagan.
.
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American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
Anyone think that K-Lo (a hard core Romney supporter) is pulling a Bush at Bob Jones regarding this visit?
This reminds me a lot of the Bush visiting Bob Jones University in 2000.
That said, I agree that Huck should put off or cancel the visit. The last thing he needs is more political bagage - and the last thing Christian voters need is more bashing by the machine in Washington.
Nothing more than using faith for political purposes.
"I believe in grace, because I have seen it. In peace, because I have felt it. In forgiveness, because I needed it."
-George W. Bush
I hope Governor Huckabee thinks twice abou this. The American Catholic Church has had to pay out over $2 billion dollars for its sex scandal. Romney's Mormon Church did not allow blacks to be minister until the 1980's. Many religions have made major errors or sins. Before we call people bigots, let's see if we can work thing out in peace. No church or house of worship doesn't have a few bad apples.
I too am anti-abortion. I wish you well Alexham.
Thomas Folan
When they asked him if he would accept the endorsement of the Log Cabin Republicans. He said he would accept their support, but he would not change his views on marriage. Is this not the same issue?
Dear Editors,
Consider this an open letter. In the past you have spoken, in the strongest possible terms, about the need to avoid theological disputes. For the most part, I agree with that policy. But then we read posts like this one by Alexham criticizing Huckabee for speaking at a Church pastored by a man with theological views with which he disagrees. I can not respond to the substance of Alexham's comments about Hagee's theology without going into some detail about the substance of Hagee's theological views. If I do that, I risk censure for violating the stated rules of this forum.
I hope you will allow me to say that I do not consider Hagee a bigot. While I do not agree with many of his theological views, I am certain (being an evangelical protestant who has studied at seminary) I understand them better than Alexham does. I am also certain that Hagee is not a bigot. But there is no way for me to make that argument without showing how Alexham has misrepresented certain commonplace evangelical theological concepts.
So what I'm asking you is this: Is there any way for a protestant to respond to diaries like this without getting banned or censured? And if not, is there any reason is there any reason for diaries like this to appear on RedState at all? If theological disputes are off limits, then certainly they should be off limits for everybody, correct?
Sincerely,
Leverkuhn
Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me
Commonplace evangelical theological concepts like these:
"The Crusaders were a motley mob of thieves, rapists, robbers, and murderers."
"The Spanish Inquisition was perhaps the most cynical plot in the black history of Catholicism."
"When Hitler became a global demonic monster, the Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII never, ever slightly criticized him. Pope Pius XII, called by historians 'Hitler's Pope'.
Actually, I was only talking about Hagee's views on the book of Revelations.
His historical views on the crusades, the Inquisition, and the Holocaust are not "evangelical" concepts at all. They're recognized history, and they really aren't all that controversial in academic circles. The crusaders were everything that he said they were, and if you don't believe me read any major text book published on the crusades in the last 50 years. Here, I'll even give you a couple to start with. [1][2] The worst you can say about such a version of history is that it leaves out the geopolitical aspect of the crusades. A few historians would argue (and I partially agree with them) that the crusades were a "necessary evil" of sorts, meaning that they were a strategic counterattack against the menacing threat of Islamic armies. But not even these revisionists would argue that the crusades were not evil. Not as long as we still consider mass murder, ethnic extermination, mass rape, and widespread child molestation evil.
Hagee's views on the Inquisition and the Holocaust were equally conventional. Both the Catholic Church in Spain and the Spanish monarchy benefited financially from liquidating the estates of condemned "heretics." Many of their victims did hold unorthodox (i.e., Protestant or Jewish) beliefs and some of them did not. If you don't believe me, read James Anderson's Daily Life During the Spanish Inquisition. [3] Or if you don't have time to read a whole book, try looking up "Spanish Inquisition" on Ebscohost or Jstore or some other academic search engine. And as for Pope Pius XII, let's just say Hagee didn't invent the phrase "Hitler's Pope." [4]
No, I wasn't complaining about being prohibited from talking about history, because as far as I know we've never been forbidden to talk about history around here. I was talking specifically about Hagee's views on Revelation, which Alexham condemned as "bigoted" without ever understanding them. I didn't even consider defending Hagee's historical views because everything he said on those subjects has been already been said by professional historians, and often in far stronger language. Frankly, I don't know why anybody would consider it controversial. It might have been cutting edge and controversial 50 years ago, but not anymore.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/First-Crusade-History-Conflict-Christianity/dp/019...
[2] http://www.amazon.com/Gods-War-New-History-Crusades/dp/0674023870/ref=pd...
[3] http://www.amazon.com/Daily-Life-During-Spanish-Inquisition/dp/031331667...
[4] http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Pope-Secret-History-Pius/dp/3548600875/ref...
Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me
The same cultural Marxista that litter our Universities with anti-American garbage are the same ones who write books like "Hitler's Pope" That scholarships has been widely repudiated by real scholars not academic socialists lackeys. Try reading Monks of War by the way. I cant believe so called conservatives fall for that stuff. Academia is riddled with anti-Catholic scholars. It's a major thorn in the side of the politically correct cultural elite. It's really sad that you have such a low opinion the Church. Read some real history. By the way, even liberal scholars are starting to admit the Sapnish Inquistion was a much overrated. I can provide citations too.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman
Indeed, there are better examples of bigotry quoted below.
"The Crusaders were a motley mob of thieves, rapists, robbers, and murderers."
I suppose you could argue that the statement implies they were only those things. Absent context, it probably does. That they were all those things is beyond debate. See the Fourth Crusade.
"The Spanish Inquisition was perhaps the most cynical plot in the black history of Catholicism."
If the implication is that only Catholicism has black elements to its history, or that Catholicism's history is uniformly black, then the statement is obvious nonsense. But that the Spanish Inquisition was a monstrous abuse of human rights, even by the standards of Europe at the time, is also beyond debate.
Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net
International Editor of
... I totally agree with your post.
It's funny how political blogs work. I vaguely remember we were savaging each other last week (about what I don't recall), but today we agree with each other.
Anyway, good stuff. I'm about to log off till after the bid day because I have shopping and stuff to do. You and yours have a Merry Christmas.
Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me
It's funny how political blogs work. I vaguely remember we were savaging each other last week (about what I don't recall), but today we agree with each other.
I don't recall the details either, except that I was right in every particular, and you were thoroughly misguided on . . . er . . . whatever that topic was.
And seasonal greetings to you too.
Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net
International Editor of
*excluding details re Hagee, of whose teachings I am not familiar enough to offer comment
soli Deo gloria
Alex is not debating the theology. Neither may you.
Alex is discussing the effect of promoting the theology. You may also discuss this.
If you wish to discuss why your thoughts on the Catholic Church's position in Revelations, there are other sites on which to do that.
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We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
I'm not even going to try to correct that sentence.
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We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
We can have a doppelgänger Catholic-Orthodox throwdown with Domenech arbitrating. Good blood sport.
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We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
... Alex didn't debate Hagee's theology at all. He simply accused the man of bigotry, and then accused a presidential candidate of tacitly excusing bigotry by speaking in the man's church. And of course, I can't respond to any of that without explaining why Hagee's theological views on Christian eschatology and the Book of Revelation are not, in point of fact, bigoted. See my dilemma?
If you don't, let me put it another way. Not long ago one of the editors (I forget which one) advised us all that throwing mud at the Mormons, aside from being politically pointless, could very well cost the GOP an important voting bloc numbering in the millions. He was right. Well, there are tens of millions of evangelicals out there, most of them Republicans, who actually believe many of the same things about the Book of Revelation as Hagee. Many of these same evangelicals have Catholic neighbors, Catholic bosses and employees, and Catholic friends. Moreover, while they disagree with Catholics strongly about nearly every theological issue they agree with Catholics in the Republican Party on most political issues. On that tenuous political alliance the entire fate of the modern GOP rests. And how long will that alliance last? About as long as we don't go around calling each other's religious leaders "bigots" or similar names.
Hang all traitors and secessionists! Hang them high!
- Me
If you can, in an email, explain to me convincingly how describing the Catholic Church -- and I hate to break this to you, that means Catholcs -- as a figurehead of Evil so important it merits mention in Revelations -- remember, we're dealing with your interpretation of that Scripture, not mine -- without it somehow expressing bigotry against Catholics, I'll let you say whatever you want about it.
By the way: Alex is a convert from evangelical Protestantism.
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We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
we are really ringing them up these days.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/12/22/catholic.blair.ap/index.html
evangelicals! Nice work.
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
You are right about as long as we don't go around calling each other's religious leaders bigots. I would add also about as long as we don't go around calling each other's religions the "whore of babylon."
I, as a Catholic, had thought it was a pretty good alliance. Based on the threads in this blog, I'm not so sure anymore.
Just like the [M]ormon[s], the [Roman C]atholic [C]hurch is NOT a true [C]hristian faith. You can bash all you want, but any religion that puts [the Virgin M]ary on the same level as our [L]ord and [S]avior, [J]esus [C]hrist is not a [C]hristi[a]n faith. N[o]where in the [B]ible does it say to pray to [the Virgin M]ary[,] and [there are] many other errors [that] the [Roman C]atholic [C]hurch teaches. I have known many beau[]t[i]ful [C]atholic people, but that doesn't take any[thing] from the fact that the[ir] church is leading them straight to [H]ell.
[I can't wait to see this guy's face when he realizes that not only does he have to share eternity with the Catholics, but that the major reason that he got in is because the Virgin Mary always leaves the back window open... - Moe Lane, Papist]
Perhaps you should stick to discussing matters you actually understand.
___________________________________________________________
Disclaimer: I am a member of a state-wide executive committee that is affiliated with Governor Mike Huckabee's campaign for the GOP presidential nomination
we have basically been told that a conservative protestant view of Catholicism is out of bounds. My dad was a Monk
(obviously not one now) he converted to protestantism. A protestant view that believes some nagative things are prophesied about Catholics in Revealation. When you say those views are bigoted you open up a theological discourse. I don't want to discuss theology on this board, but if my views are going to be attacked as bigoted I feel compelled to.
What we're - at least I'm - saying is that the discussion has NO PLACE in the race for POTUS.
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
---
Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman
If your wife or the guys at the office got you a new harpoon for Christmas, you might want to unwrap it early and try it out.
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
When asked about JFK's Catholicism, Truman replied that he wasn't worried about the pope, but the Pop - Joseph P. Kennedy Sr.
Fools go where angels fear to tread, but religious zealots get there so much faster!
I hope you realize that all early christian were Catholic. There would be no Protestants without Catholics. I also hope you realize that the Bible was created by the Catholic Church. The church was apostolic and only after centuries did they create the councils to evaluate various wiritings and gospels. The early Catholic Church created the Bible as a teaching tool.
I am confounded by bigoted Protestants that criticize Catholics when all the early christians were Catholics and then use the bible, the same bible that was put together by the Catholic Church created some four hundred years after the Catholic Church was created to criticize the Catholic Church.
Quit with the theology lessons.
Some minor corrections.
Bible was created by the Catholic Church
The Jews had a bible long before we had today’s bible. What is now known as the Catholic Church gathered different writings from different prophets, poets, apostles, etc. into two different books (after put together) Old, and New Testament. Choose some writing to put in, didn't include others. Catholic Church is an out growth of the original apostles’ church. Beyond that is a mater of theology, and I will leave it there.
.
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American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
Catholics don't put Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. And I don't think they're all headed to Hell. Acceptance of Christ's grace is the only prerequisite to salvation. This doesn't mean the church hasn't led people astray though, with its beliefs on Righteousness by faith.
This is why you should leave religion alone in a political site. This is not the place to try and convert people. Your religious believe are yours, and let god sort it out later.
.
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American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
I am weighing in with an opinion here without having read all the details, but I hope you will reconsider. A presidential candidate really shouldn't have an effect on religious disputes. This is endemic of mixing our choice of POTUS with our choice of religious leaders.
But this is my first impression as it were.
Alexham, you are not alone supporter here of Huckabee, nor alone as a Catholic supporter.
Just a few of the Catholic bloggers for Huckabee:
http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/
http://www.catholicsforhuckabee.blogspot.com/
http://www.opinionatedcatholic.blogspot.com/
http://www.catholicthought.net/
http://cafeteriacatholics4huckabee.blogspot.com/
Governor Huckabee for President!
For those who think the Catholic Church is not the one True, Catholic, Holy, and Apostolic Church, at least take the time to read the work of a great scholar, theologian, and convert Cardinal Newman's "The Catholic Church" before making puerile observations. We have over 25,000 different "protestant" denominations claiming to be the "Church" and thus claiming many "truths" an utter absurdity made clear by one of history's greatest literary writers, Hillaire Belloc in his book "Heresies."
As for Huckabee his penchant for injecting his brand of Christianity into the presidential race is now well established. Just as thinking people don't sign onto identity-tribal (race/gender/ethnicity) politics, it is deleterious to the body politic to court a religious theme as a basis for election.
Hagee is a two-bit televangelist in the same mold of Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, and all the rest of these charlatans. To overtly canvass his support is no different than a presidential candidate who goes to a KKK gathering asking for their votes but disavowing their bigotry.
It's time for Red State readers to jettison this opportunist and look elsewhere. While we were all put off by McCain on immigration, taxes, and campaign finance, it appears from his recent interview with the Wall St.J that he has learned his lesson, and is capable of thumping Hillary or Barrack H. Obama, and lead our nation from Day One.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
As for Huckabee his penchant for injecting his brand of Christianity into the presidential race is now well established. Just as thinking people don't sign onto identity-tribal (race/gender/ethnicity) politics, it is deleterious to the body politic to court a religious theme as a basis for election.
Hagee is a two-bit televangelist in the same mold of Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, and all the rest of these charlatans. To overtly canvass his support is no different than a presidential candidate who goes to a KKK gathering asking for their votes but disavowing their bigotry.
Here, I agree 200%, but not ready to let McCain off the Hook. But thats based on politics differences. But I respect your position on McCain, and will vote for him if he is the last one standing (okay, he is #3 on my list, which is an improvement over being #4 behind Rudy).
.
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American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
I too am a conservative Catholic, and based on the Huckster's passive aggressive attacks on Romney's Mormonism, I had a pretty good sense the same views were held towards Catholics. That's the norm for those with Huckabee's prejudices. If Romney happened to be Catholic while he was the guy leading in Iowa, we would have seen anti-Catholic gestures coming from Huckabee's camp rather than the anti-Mormon ones.
You don't have to sign up with an anti-Mormon, anti-Catholic bigot to advance the culture of life. Even if he backs out of this appearance, at this point it will be for political purposes and won't change what he is.
"Honor is self-esteem made visible in action." - Ayn Rand, West Point, 1974
I am happy to see others see, what I have seen since he put up "Christian Leader" in his ad.
.
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American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
I see you've swallowed the narrative. Educate yourself.
Subtitle: who died and made you arbiter of Romney's campaign story?
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
My duty as a conservative really is to receive and believe. Hail Mitt! And his online supporters.
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
n/t
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Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
So the terms "f*g" and "pu**ies" (sanitized for RedState though I'd rather not still have to point this out) are okey-dokey with you, gotcha. That's the kind of thing that someone usually gets banned for linking to. It's funny that you link to a Mr. Internet Tough Guy (that had obscenities) and yet all over this thread you have been nothing but Mr. Internet Tough Guy.
Grow up.
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Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
....for my banning, I strongly urge you to take it to the Directors. The community doesn't work if its members are unwilling to enforce its standards.
In the absence of that conviction in action, your purpose is unclear to me.
I really don't want you banned, but you couldn't find a picture of "Mr. Internet Tough Guy" on it that wasn't laced with obscenities? You don't see a problem with that (or at least a warning with the link)?
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
almost as long as one of our illustrious founders, I think you would be in as good a position as anyone to determine what can get someone warned, if not banned, from the site. It is not up to you to report it, as the editors can find such potentially offensive situations in a flash. That they chose not to warn only speaks to the fact that we have the equivalent of the political double standard here. I have seen commenters warned for much less.
You know, I'm more than happy to hang this anti-Catholic whack-job around Huckabee's neck. I honestly think Huck to be better than that, but if Mr. Christian Leader wants to wrap himself with Hagee's cloak then who is this Papilist to argue.
Hope we at least get a nice picture of the two of them breaking bread together.
My principal objection to you is this ludicrous notion we all have agendas (true, of course) that you are some sort of impartial judge/jury/executioner of all things Mitt Romney (which is a big stinking pile of redacted). ALL HAIL JOSH TREVINO - LONG AGO CO-FOUNDER OF REDSTATE!!
Pfft.
We can't miss you unless you leave and stay gone, you know.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
What's a "Papilist"? A Papist pugilist, perhaps? Leave that role to TCrown.
You know, I'm more than happy to hang this anti-Catholic whack-job around Huckabee's neck. I honestly think Huck to be better than that....
See, this is what the kids call "hypocrisy." If one thinks X, but espouses not-X, well -- where does that leave you? Besides defending Mitt Romney's political integrity, I mean?
My principal objection to you is this ludicrous notion we all have agendas (true, of course)....
If it's true, why the objection?
....that you are some sort of impartial judge/jury/executioner....
Impartial? Nah, I've got my own biases. You're just chapped at getting taken on, and losing. This is not uncommon where the Romney-adoring masses are concerned.
We can't miss you....
But you can miss missing me. My own goal is to make you feel whacked by the 2x4 of knowledge.
Pity.
Papalist was a mis-spelling. We mortals do that from time to time. I make it a point to not trample on Thomas' domain. Were you around more often you might know that.
See, this is what the kids call "hypocrisy." ...
See, this is what kids call not being able to read and not knowing a damn thing about the person with whom you are arguing. I'm told that's pretty much par for the course with you, though.
Where you see me defending Romney's personal integrity is another of those areas where your mind-reading abilities are failing you. Again. I'm trying to keep this on the company your guy is keeping and you, typically, keep changing the subject. Take a lot of stones to do that and cry "hypocrisy!"
at the same time - but hey, since you're beating me like a rented mule (in your own mind, at least), why stop there?
If it's true, why the objection?
Your inability to continue on within a sentence would be an objection, but I'm happy to overlook it.
... You're just chapped at getting taken on, and losing. ...
Wow, back to judge/jury/executioner. Well, can't argue with that. When all else fails yell "I WIN!" and that settles any argument. Genius.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
Papalist was a mis-spelling. We mortals do that from time to time.
So I hear! It's charming.
See, this is what kids call not being able to read and not knowing a damn thing about the person with whom you are arguing.
And to think I made all that effort to directly cite you verbatim. So: where did I go wrong?
Where you see me defending Romney's personal integrity is....
....nowhere. I wrote that you defend his political integrity. See, this is what kids call not being able to read and not knowing a damn thing about the person with whom you are arguing.
Let's try again then - and you see me defending Romney's political integrity where, precisely?
And you have cited me verbatim where?
Again, I was under the impression this thread was about Huckabee. Funny how it always ends-up coming back to Romney whenever that's the case, though.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
....you see me defending Romney's political integrity where, precisely?
You entered into dialogue with me in response to a rhetorical jab at Romney. Shortly thereafter, you declared that Romney "Walks the walk," which is somewhat absurd if you've paid attention to his political life in the past 15 years. A reasonable person will interpret you as a defender of Romney's political integrity.
And you have cited me verbatim where?
Okay, for your sake, I'm going to let you figure this one out.
Must be your "poor reception" getting in the way again. I engaged not to defend Romney's honor (political or otherwise) but simply because you were employing the oft-used Huckabee defense technique of threadjacking - which is, indeed, a reasonable response to someone who is urgently attempting to change the subject.
And as someone who has indeed paid rather close attention to Romney's political and business life for the last 8-years (cannot vouch for pre-2000 though), I'd say "walking the walk" fits pretty well. To each his own, I suppose.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
....you are defending his political integrity, then? I'm getting whiplash.
....the oft-used Huckabee defense technique of threadjacking....
Oh, good God. Yes, my boy, they trained us on it at HuckaCamp.
And yes, you are.
Huckacamp - touche, I like that one. Does Huckacamp take Discover Card? Or is the fee too high?
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
but they do take furniture!
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
trevino and I shared a moment upthread and you had to go and throw-down here.
What's next - a big fat "BAH, HUMBUG!"?
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
it was too tempting, I'll say 10 "Hail Broncos" and sit in the corner for 10 minutes :P
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
They're going to need the help.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
Shot through, IMO, with arrogance and obvious disdain for the person on the other side of the discussioon.
Josh, is this really the image you want to project?
"Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?" (Macaulay)
I'm okay with it. I love much of the RS leadership. The commenters? Well, ever since the crowd got into its pro-Romney, anti-Huckabee frenzy, not so much. Most of it is fairly ridiculous standard-issue internet mob behavior, and I'm not averse to wading in and making some waves.
If Huckabee is more believable to you as a candidate, then that makes your judgement suspect.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
This is FredState. Check the link.
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/wubbies_world/2007/dec/31/red_state_commun...
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
It's about Huckabee and his shameless willingness to play to base and tribal emotions that stoke suspicion towards the religion of others as a way of getting votes. It is disgusting.
I've been a Catholic my entire 40 year life and a Republican since I was old enough to think for myself, and we all have our base beliefs about our religion and that of others, but if a Catholic candidate tried to play on my emotions like that with me I would be appalled. I thought the same would be true of evangelicals but am beginning to have my doubts based on how effective it has been for Huckabee.
It makes me wonder if all the fellow Catholic conservatives I have had tell me over the years Catholics aren't welcome in the Republican Party and I am naive to think otherwise aren't right. I do believe Huckabee is playing to the darker side of his flock and if it proves to be a winning formula I really am not at home in the Republican Party. That it is an evangelical party that will gladly accept the votes of Catholics, Jews and Mormons who share common ground, but will gladly play on their own tribal tendencies against them when needed.
It's the kind of garbage that's part and parcel of the Democrat Party's identify politics and if that's what my Republican Party turns into by rewarding Huckabee's version of it then gloat all you want at Huckabee's nomination and take the party with you. If Americans want identify politics (did I swallow the narrative with that term too?), as with big spending, big taxes, mushy emotional national security policy, and big statism they can get the real thing from the Democrats and your boy will get routed.
"Honor is self-esteem made visible in action." - Ayn Rand, West Point, 1974
....Huckabee and his shameless willingness to play to base and tribal emotions that stoke suspicion towards the religion of others....
Let's look at the evidence for this, shall we? It's remarkably thin:
It makes me wonder if all the fellow Catholic conservatives I have had tell me over the years Catholics aren't welcome in the Republican Party and I am naive to think otherwise aren't right.
I think that's ridiculous. A proper understanding of Church teaching does not leaving the faithful with much option but to support conservatism, and by implication, its party.
I think the point is he is tired of the "Christian Leader", "Theology Degree", "Oh, that is a cross?", "Oh, Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?" stuff has gone a little far. It is exhausting.
We are electing The President of the United States!
I don't care what his/her religion is as long as they keep us safe, keep out of my wallet, protect the life of an unborn, and enforce the immigration laws that are already on the books.
There is no religious test. Huckabee is trying to create one.
TrustButVerify
"Exhausted" is exactly the word. There is not a "hysterical" bone in my body right now.
We weren't born yesterday. We know what many (not all, not a majority, but many) evangelicals say about Catholics and Mormons, and only a fool or ignoramus doesn't see what Huckabee is playing to. It's unseemly, disgusting and beneath any public office much less POTUS.
Some people need to think long and hard about what Huckabee's brand of politics is going to do to the Republican Party if it's successful in securing the nomination.
"Honor is self-esteem made visible in action." - Ayn Rand, West Point, 1974
On trevino's main point (slightly corrected):
A proper understanding of Church teaching does not (leave) the faithful with much option but to support conservatism, and by implication, its party.
I have to admit I've been trying to make that very same point with my fellow parishioners since I moved to MA in 2000. Not yet making much headway of course (too many old Irish who think voting Republican is something for which they need to receive absolution), but it still rings perfectly true to me.
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Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock.
Nonsense. He's explicitly denied that several times. Discussing faith in public, and highlighting it as a virtue, is not a contravention of Constitutional intent.
but I don't see how any of those things have been debunked. I read the link and your conclusion is that Huckabee did say that and
"Huckabee apologized for any offense he caused, as was only right"
The whole thing is making a mountain out of a molehill, but do you really think Huckabee just happened to wonder aloud about a controversial aspect of his opponent's faith? After Huckabee has made expressly religious appeals to the voters?
I'm not about to debate Mormonism per se here, but suffice it to say that its more unusual teachings are fairly likely to come up, if the faith itself does, in conversation. This goes double if one of the conversants is a Protestant Christian. Furthermore, if Huckabee really wanted to smear Mormonism, well -- let's just say there's a rich vein of material on that subject. The Christ/Lucifer brotherhood (which is a paraphrase of an actual Mormon teaching) is not even close to the first thing that would come up.
Finally, I'll simply note that making "expressly religious appeals to the voters" does not imply that religious bigotry is more likely to occur.
You are correct, it does not imply religious bigotry is MORE likely to occur.
UNLESS?!...you DON'T make "expressly religious appeals to the voters". This certainly would imply that religious bigotry is LESS likely to occur.
Why is he making these appeals? Why are they needed? Why do you think this is not a calculated act?
TrustButVerify
Well -- he's a preacher by profession. This is apparently how he's always been in public life.
I'm neither Baptist nor Evangelical, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with this.
since I'm not voting for him either way. That he could accidentally say that in a conversation with a *reporter* defies belief, but it could happen.
So I guess it's time to "out" myself too... I am a devout evangelical catholic Christian. I wonder if anyone from the MSM will ask Pastor-in-Chief Huckabee if he too supports John Hagee's contention that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon".
John Hagee is not just anti-catholic, he is EXTREMELY anti-catholic (search forums.catholic.com); here are some of his notable quotes during an October 2007 broadcast:
"No difference between Catholics and Muslims in terms of killing Jews"
"Crusades were about killing Jews by Catholics"
"Hitler and The Catholic Church were one"
"Catholic Church stole money from Jews"
A good synopsis here:
http://gop3.com/2007/12/21/your-daily-anti-huckabee-digest-1021-in-today...
What makes him a "really cool" pastor is that Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah:
Does Huckabee agree with that statement? A real Christmas gift.
...Hagee is NOT denying Jesus as the Messiah.
He states Jesus was not the Jewish "Messiah."
Mr. Ed
Straight from the Horse's Mouth
to be the Messiah." and more... "Jesus refused by word and deed to be the Messiah."
Perhaps John Hagee should read and comprehend the Gospel (John 1:41, Mark 8:27-38) and not come off as another televangelist hack who accepts only what he wants to of the Holy Word. I appreciate his passion for the defense of Israel, but it ends there.
It will be interesting to see if HUCKABEE EMBRACES HAGEE on Sunday... if so, he'll just keep painting himself into a lil' evangelical backed corner, having offended the majority of Christians, both catholic and protestant, not to mention all of the non-Mormon bigotry.
Mr. Ed, here's your hay:
JOHN HAGEE: VETERAN BIGOT
http://catholicleague.org/catalyst.php?year=2007&month=June&read=2264
THE OTHER GOSPEL OF JOHN HAGEE
http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm
The Huckabee Stool: JOHN HAGEE
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/2007/12/the_huckabee_st.html
.
.
_____________________________________________________
American First, Conservative Second, Republican Third
How can any candidate who has so divided a group like those at Redstate have any chance of uniting a country being torn apart by the forces of socialism, PC and a cultural uncertaintly so profound that we even doubt the value of our nation?
How can a candidate who is able to split Christians into feuding segments command the respect of all religious/athiest people?
How can a candidate who apparently willingly alienates those who do not share his beliefs, win the support of a majority of Americans?
A candidate that is willing to cause fights among his supposedly ideological kin is not a man who deserves, or is able to lead us against the democrats regardless of whether he is a true conservative or not.
lets see, Huckster is a democrat in sheep's clothing
Ghouliani is the anti-christ
Mitt is a flim flam mormoran
McCain is, well McCain
and Fred is motionless
Wonder where that leaves us?
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
“When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains--however improbable--must be the truth.” --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Huck's people savaged Senator Brownback for being a Catholic convert in the leadup to the Iowa Straw Poll. He didn't denounce their tactics. Now this. I'm not going to say anything about Huckabee, but is anyone else seeing a pattern...
I've had southern christians tell me Catholics don't believe in Jesus. I've met many that really don't think Catholics are "real" Christians and Huckabee is making a play for the "real" Christian vote. It is divisive, disgusting, and hopefully defeatist.
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I am a Positivist Pastafarian for the alliteration alone.
what you say!
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Caucus Cooler: Huck Makes $35,000 from Consulting Embryonic Stem Cell Research Company
I don’t really care about Huckabee’s liberal positions. Well, not nearly as much as this kind of stuff.
Most noteworthy, $35,000 came from Novo Nordisk, one of the world’s largest embryonic stem cell researchers. It seems that when money is at stake Huckabee may be able to look past his supposedly fervent opposition to this procedure
He also received speaking fees and honoraria from churches while Governor.
It is certainly calls into question whether or not it is appropriate for a Governor to be taking a consulting fee from interest groups, as Huckabee did, when issues surrounding that interest group could come across his desk.
The consulting money was funneled through an organization called 12 stops, a group created in 2004 to handle Gov. Huckabee’s book deals. With all the attention Senator Obama received for running a separate PAC and potentially funnelling money from maxed out donors through that PAC, it calls into question whether Huckabee may have done the same
Caucus Cooler stated that Huckabee "[took] a consulting fee from interest groups." Looks here like these were speaking honoraria rather than consultancy arrangements. Unless there is further evidence, this smacks of misrepresentation.
Just quibble over spelling, semantics and other diversionary items.
"Honor is self-esteem made visible in action." - Ayn Rand, West Point, 1974
Novo Nordisk is one of the largest manufacturers of insulin and other drugs to treat diabetes. Specifically, Novo Nordisk is famous for Levimir--which is injectable insulin in a "flexpen" form. In fact, Novo Nordisk only makes drugs for diabetics. And, since Huck is a former type II diabetic who talks frequently about weight loss (which is the first line of treatment for diabetes, whether or not the patient also takes medications), Huck could be receiving money from Novo Nordisk because he supports diabetes research , prevention, and treatment--not because he supports stem cell research.
I mean, someone with new data to present rather than trying to explain what others have written. Your info doesn't necessarily resolve the propriety issue, but it does mean that one needs to take a serious second look at the hypocrisy charge.
Looks like your medical training is finally being put to some practical use. :)
Thanks, but I'm not sure if my medical training is paying off, or if it's just the fact that the attending physician that I did my internal medicine rotation with made us go to numerous pharmaceutical dinners. One of the numerous dinners that I was forced to attend was given by Novo Nordisk. It was almost three hours long and I had to crane my neck the whole time in order to appear that I was listening.
Y'all have a good night. :-)
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Implicit in every protestant meeting/church/group/congregation/pastor/speaker/writer since the 16th century is anti-Catholicism (bigotry if you must use that word). Sometimes it becomes explicit, but that's what religion is about. If you didn't think you were right, you wouldn't be a Catholic.
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Huck recently discussed issues concerning Catholics w/ CatholicOnline.com. See:
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=26206
As you point out, a speaker does not imply he agrees with EVERY view of his audience merely by addressing them or agreeing to speak with them.
Hope this eases some of your discomfort w/ Huck's decision.
Support by association does not fly here.
Mike has made it clear that he will speak just about anywhere, and low and behold he is living up to his word ... again. Mike doesn't take a "bunker mentality" to any one, not foriegn affairs, and especially not to some mega church, he'll tell the truth from anyones pulpit.
Governor Huckabee for President.
yes, and Obama and Richardson would go meet face to face with Achmedinahoosie. You see, The differences between evangelicals and Catholics is like when friends and relatives haven't spoken in a while...
Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone. --Mitt Romney
a wrose outrage that the above examples would be to speak to
The national Democratic Party!
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
www.fred08.com
They are meant for each other. Maybe Hagee will bust out a chart showing the levels of hell that catholics belong in while Huckabee is there. Take this as your hint that you should abandon ship.
Doesn't Hagee think Catholics are the "Whore of Baboyln" in Revelation?
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I am a Positivist Pastafarian for the alliteration alone.