NH Afternoon Open Thread
By Adam C Posted in 2008 — Comments (78) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

Turnout looks high... 500,000!
It seems Ds are running out of ballots. That means in both IA and NH (swing states), Ds may be showing a major enthusiasm gap. Rs should start at least acknowledging that they may be facing another 2006. Nothing is set in stone, but it seems the Ds are starting with a significant advantage in 2008.
Put your comments, attacks, analysis, etc here.
[UPDATE 6:12 PM]: FoxNews just announced an election day poll (not an exit poll). I didn't catch all of it, but here is what I saw:
McCain 35
Romney 34
Huck 12
Independents saying the are voting:
Repub 41
Demo 59
Is voting in R primary went:
McCain 36
Romney 24
The reporter said Romney leads in the oldest age bracket and McCain led among other age brackets.
Please let me know if any of these numbers are off, I'm doing it by memory.
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NH Afternoon Open Thread 78 Comments (0 topical, 78 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
...uses actual oil dredged from the ground in his hair.
Not that there's any proof.
But... just wondering.
I'm very jealous of Mitt's hair. I've got this cowlick thing going on. Surprisingly, people accuse me of having manequin hair also. I've also been called Ken. I'm also a successful executive (nowhere near as rich)....maybe that's why I like Mitt - he's like me, only better.
True story - back in college I worked at a residential treatment facility. My job was basically to physically take down out of control kids. I was watching a kid in our "observation room" and he had been yelling and swearing at everyone. Once I went back there his only insult for me was that I look like a manequin and then he kept calling me Ken...great story huh, okay, back to work.
* PRIESTCRAFT is thus defined: “The stratagem and frauds of priests; fraud or imposition in religious concerns. Management of selfish and ambitious priests to gain wealth and power, or to impose upon the credulity of others.”
Of course us Vermonters with the republican governer just bus on over to NH to rig their primarys every 4 years. Didnt you know?
McCain's surge possibly waned in the final days and if so he has a chance to come in a close second due to Mac's plateau and Obama's indy surge.
If that is possible I think Romney has a shot at portraying Michigan as his true test and winning there setting up a NASTY South Carolina race between Romney/Huckabee/McCain.
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I am a Positivist Pastafarian for the alliteration alone.
While the better part of me doesn't want to see it, the cynical part of me knows the following will happen: Clinton will do anything and use any tactic to stop Obama between now and the convention. The Democratic Party very well may be in shreds at the end of the process.
Clinton would be the easier candidate to beat, of course, so this may sound like wishful thinking on my part. But with the addition of Begala and Carville to her entourage today, it is likely things are about to get very, very ugly on the other side of the street.
Those people in New Hampshire and Iowa aren't turning out for Hillary, and if she thinks she can win the nomination ugly and keep them in the fold, she will be proved wrong.
Neither party has a clue who their nominee will be, but while the Republican Establishment would hate to see Huckabee or Paul as the nominee it wouldn't self-immolate over it. Clinton and the Democratic establishment are one and the same and holding a match and fuel.
I have been saying that to people for a while even on here. Clinton is getting killed and they know it. She missed her chance to run in 2004.
Iowa and NH are pretty good indicators of the nominee on the Democratic side.
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I am a Positivist Pastafarian for the alliteration alone.
She may lose in the end, but she's far from dead. Do not underestimate the power of a 50-state ground game which can and will play nasty, and the Clinton War Room, which will also play as nasty as it needs to.
Obama is magnetic asnd charismatic and all that. But his organization, while decent, is the proverbial Golden Gloves amateur in the ring with Ali. And he's personally soft. Do you remember what happened when Maureen Dowd mentioned his big ears? Yes. Well, you can be darned sure that the Clinton War Room does.
So, this thing is far from over.
Stare decisis is fo' suckas -- Feddie
Hillary may want to keep going, but this race is all but over. She's training for trench warfare and the electorate is already proving they don't want to see it. They are already spending more than they are taking in.
It is the old gambler's dilemma for Clinton. The more she loses the more she has to bet to get even and the longer it goes the longer the odds.
Donors, endorsements, and delegates are already drying up based on Iowa and it looks as if the beating will be worse in New Hampshire.
A 50 State strategy only works if both candidates are seen as viable and Hillary is looking at losing all the early primaries which will destroy her funds and image.
What exactly can she say to a crowd that has already made "Change" the mantra?
Hillary was the best candidate we could run against, but she has lost this thing.
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I am a Positivist Pastafarian for the alliteration alone.
Staunch, I'm just not gonna get into a long protracted argument defending the chances of the witch against the scarecrow. I neither like nor care about either one. So, let's just agree to disagree.
Stare decisis is fo' suckas -- Feddie
"While the better part of me doesn't want to see it, the cynical part of me knows the following will happen: Clinton will do anything and use any tactic to stop Obama between now and the convention. The Democratic Party very well may be in shreds at the end of the process."
My fingers are crossed. :)
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
My understanding is that Romney is leading McCain among registered Republicans and that McCain is leading overall because of his stronger support from independents.
If the independents break heavily for Obama, and also if he who must not be named (but whose name begins with "P" and ends with "l" and has an "au" in it) attracts a significant chunk of the more libertarian leaning independents, I wonder how that will work out for McCain?
It seems strange rooting for the independents to go left but sometimes I guess one needs to think strategically.
The Rasmussen poll has Romney up among registered Rs by 2 or 3 points. The ARG poll has McCain winning among registered Rs by 4 or 5.
I think Rs will be real close with Romney winning them narrowly. McCain wins overall but more narrowly than the most recent polls predict.
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I think you are right to be hoping and praying that we at least keep that many.
"We all share the same goals: clean air and water...safe transportation systems, to name a few of the good things that can come from regulation. " -Fred D. Thompson
If we end up with 41, that means we lost eight. We're definitely losing Virginia. I think there's a prety good chance we lose Colorado, New Mexico, and New Hampshire. Maybe we could drop four where the circumstances are really bad (Alaska, Idaho, etc.) but I doubt it. Plus, the Democrats are going to lose Louisiana.
And with that ray of sunshine...GO MCCAIN!
No one of good character leaves behind a wasted life - John McCain
Both Young and Stevens and their corrupt pork-barreling is losing support. It happened in MT in 2006 and it can happen in AK.
The GOP needs to toss them first, but probably won't.
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And by a large margin too (80% for challengers / 20% for Murkowski). This shows that the Alaskan Republican party is not adverse to kicking the bums out when they start stinking up the place. Hopefully we'll get another Palin like challenger to take care of old Senator tubes for us, otherwise the seat could be in considerable danger.
But unless I missed it, there isn't a Palin in this race.
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And Young and Stevens are a pair of political juggernauts when it comes to Alaska. Stevens far more so than Young, but so long as Stevens wins, Young will too. Only 2 things could lose the election for Stevens against a Dem: indictment; failing health.
"Guns don't kill people...
"...But they sure help!"
-Paul Giamatti, Shoot 'Em Up
Before we hit the panic button (and I don't think anyone is), let's see how the Clintons handle Obama. If he can withstand the Clinton slime machine, then we may be in big trouble. If not . . .
The good thing is we will know within a month which battle we face.
Folks, I know that it's fun to tell scary stories to each other and everything, but do you think that maybe we can all stop, count to ten, maybe take a quick walk around the block and breathe some fresh air before we panic?
Because we've been told that we're doomed before.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I will only note that you did not hear it from me in 2004. 2004 was going to be a close 50/50 election. Thus turnout mattered. Rove nailed it. He though it would be close when people were afraid to challenge Bush. He ran like it would be close and it was close. I thought his analysis was right.
In 2006, a lot of people said "every year we're told we'll lose and we don't." Rs lost. Big time. The polls said it. The enthusiasm gap was real. It was obvious in retrospect.
As of today, we are in 2006 not 2004 right now. Everything is pointing toward a 2006 repeat with 54-56% D which would be 35-40 states for Obama and probably 4-6 Senate seats.
That could change. But as of today, Rs are far behind. Not a couple points. Not a little turnout. But on the edge of a 1984 smackin'.
I don't know who told you "we're doomed before" but if you value my analysis at all, this year (as of today) is the worst position Rs have been in during the time I have paid attention to politics.
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...then I'll get worried (and, clearly, we should be taking preventative steps now whether I'm worried or not: ounce of prevention, and all that). But it's January, and nobody really knows the rules this go-round, and it's traditional to have us be told that the GOP is heading for disaster at this point.
Lemme put it this way. We very well may lose 1-3 seats if we are defeated; but the only way that we'll lose 6 is if we break and run. So let's not panic, because panic is what kills. Metaphorically speaking. :)
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
...when his poll numbers were in the tank. Now, he pulling even with Shaheen in many polls. Don't push the panic button 10 months out - that's ludicrous. Every election there is a constant media drumbeat about how the GOP is going down.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
early polling doesn't mean squat? Wow.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Sununu is an incumbent who has beat his opponent before.
VA is over unless there is some major change (and I mean Jesus running type of major change). NH is a hard race but it is winnable. Ditto MN, OR, CO and NM.
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2006 was merely a precurser to the ultimate unseating of the redstate. Its going to be a redcounty when 2009 comes around.
But don't ever change, Sparky.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
and after the holidays, who can't stand to take off a few pounds?
Seriously, however, I'm more concerned about Huck than Hillary, although admittedly Obama does give me pause...
Texas Proud and Texas Loud
"When in danger or in doubt...
Run is circles scream and shout!"
Other than that, you are correct sir.
Heck, even Rasmussen has noticed that the gap in party identification that had been widening towards the Dems is now down to 1/3rd of what it had been.
We're still just in the opening battles. Let's not surrender before the war really gets going.
---
Finrod's First Law of Bandwidth:
A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it takes the bandwidth of ten thousand.
Gore was up 7 points over Bush in September of 2000? Boy, was I scared then.
And when CNN called Florida for Gore (before the polls had closed in the panhandle)? I had a wave of flash-depression, followed by a wave of ecstasy when CNN reversed itself and declared Florida for Bush.
Don't sweat the small stuff, people.
Americans still don't realize that Obama voted FOR partial birth abortion in the Illinois Assembly and was against DOMA (which Bill Clinton signed) in 1996.
Americans don't yet realize that Obama voted to retain perks like "good time" for convicted child molesters when he was in the Ill. Assembly ("Ill. Ass." for short).
B.O. is a no-go for Globo War on A.Q.
Romney 2008
I don't know how much it even matters who the Dem nominee is. I just don't see much enthusiasm for the GOP slate, and that is the whole point of this post, I think. Did anyone notice that in Iowa, the top three vote getters were all Dems? I mean, Clinton comes in third, and still got more votes than Huck. This is a problem, isn't it?
...cheap cigar, beat-up car, nice guitar.....
Conservatives do not have a candidate capable of rallying the base against a ground swell of opposition to the administration of George Bush and deep seated grass roots discontment on any number of issues.
But, the primaries are really about voting for someone, not against someone. So, right now, there are no votes against Obama coming from any source.
But, in the general election, there could well be a ground swell of opposition to an Obama candidacy. The man can only run for so long by doing nothing but saying "change". Sooner or later he is going to get pinned down on a more precise definition of precisely what he means by that. And when he does he will be seen for what he trully is - a very left wing junior senator with no practical experience of any kind at any thing other than organizing disgruntled voters in inner city Chicago.
The only thing that would make an Obama presidency inevitable would be a sharp down turn in the economy or a renewal of violence in Iraq. Both or which remain very real possibilities.
Under the Democratic rules, the delegates for any candidate under 15% get to change to a viable candidate. The Republicans do not have that rule. So, the top candidates in the Democratic caucus will pick up extra votes that the Republican candidates do not. Also, the Republicans simply have more viable candidates, so votes will be spread among more candidates. That said, Republicans do need better turnout.
Chill out, people. We have a long way to go until the general election.
There's a whole lot of time for people to change their attitudes, and I think once people begin to see that Obama (Clearly Hillary is done.) is a cut-and-run, negotiate-with-terrorist, redefining marriage, tax-raising, universal-healthcare-from-your-paycheck, foreign policy know-nothing, stil-wet-behind-the-ears rookie socialist candidate they will rethink their decision. ...The mania will die away, and reality will set in.
He's made more than one gaff, and in a general election when romanticism faces reality, he'll make plenty more. (Like bombing Pakistan... 'member that one?)
I believe Romney is the Rep choice. Even if he finishes 2nd in New Hampshire.
Given the two choices, I think people will realize they don't want to put a country at war in the hands of a guy with NO experience to speak of.
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“It must not be supposed that folly is as powerful as truth,
just because it can, if it likes, shout louder and longer than truth.”
--Augustine
Contra Mundum is a Turkish phrase for "Us Against The World", right? I have a Turkish friend whose band was named Contra Mundum.
Dems running out of ballots probably means Idependents are voting Obama which will hurt McCain. McCain won NH in 2000 by winning Independents while losing among Repubs.
Or it could be that the primarys are being held in New Hampshire where there are more than 500,000 willing dem's ready to vote in a democrat primary. I know its hard to believe given the sparse showing for the redstate... but its pretty passionate here in New England after 8 years of bumbling.
I just posted this on Thunder's "running out of ballots post" but I felt it needed to be here as well. These quotes are about 90 minutes old and were posted before the after-work crowd--which is starting to hit the polls now.
Nashua--(Big city by NH standards)
...Should even that supply run low, Bergeron has it covered. "I had 9,000 more ballots printed up this morning in-house, 4,500 for each party," he said. "They're sort of my backup for the backup."
Bergeron said he didn't notice any significant difference in turnout by party affiliation. "There are slightly more Democrats registered in Nashua, but I haven't heard that one party or the other is seeing a larger turnout than the other at this point," he said
Emphasis mine.
And this from my home town of 25K
...Merrimack Town Clerk Diane Trippett says she is getting nervous that the town of Merrimack will run out of ballots before the end of the voting day.
The three precincts in Merrimack were provided with a total of 7,000 Republican ballots and 5,000 Democratic ballots, but as of 2 p.m. Precinct 1 alone had already gone through over 1,100 ballots from each party.
Emphasis agian mine.
See my earlier diary analyzing Iowa turnout here. I do think we should note it, and I think it is reason for concern - I'd rather our primary turnout was exceeding theirs. But an analysis of past Iowa caucus turnouts suggest that there is little or no relation between caucus turnout (at least in Iowa) and general election results.
Brad Smith
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
Capital University website
Center for Competitive Politics website
The following reasons give me a reason to not be pessimistic
1. The Democrats will be nominating a liberal, although probably a charistmatic liberal. Americans are more conservative than liberal.
2. Democrats have only won with a southern kinda conservative for the past 45 years.
3. We will likely, I hope, nominate a solid conservative. The American center is closer to the conservative center.
4. Pendelum theory. It's hard to have two stunning election victories in a row. The pendelum had swung far in Republicans' favor in 2004, and it came back with a vengeance.
Never in modern times have their been successive big wins. The best I can come up with is after '74 came '76. Even then, the Dems. made almost no gains in Congress in '76, and barely won the presidency.
Often times the next election is a wash, or good news for the other side. Think 80, 82, 84, 86, 88 sequence. Or 92, 94, 96...
5. To wit, look at Rasmussens party id numbers for 2007--slowly getting better for Republicans--to the point they were in January 2004.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/...
6. In sum, the pendelum may be swinging in our direction. And if a united conservative coaltion comes together this summer. We stand a good chance, maybe better than 50% at winning and picking up a few seats in the House (and not losing much in the Senate).
"People will not look forward to posterity who never look backward to their ancestors." -Edmund Burke
The following reasons give me a reason to not be pessimistic
1. The Democrats will be nominating a liberal, although probably a charistmatic liberal. Americans are more conservative than liberal.
2. Democrats have only won with a southern kinda conservative for the past 45 years.
3. We will likely, I hope, nominate a solid conservative. The American center is closer to the conservative center.
4. Pendelum theory. It's hard to have two stunning election victories in a row. The pendelum had swung far in Republicans' favor in 2004, and it came back with a vengeance.
Never in modern times have their been successive big wins. The best I can come up with is after '74 came '76. Even then, the Dems. made almost no gains in Congress in '76, and barely won the presidency.
Often times the next election is a wash, or good news for the other side. Think 80, 82, 84, 86, 88 sequence. Or 92, 94, 96...
5. To wit, look at Rasmussens party id numbers for 2007--slowly getting better for Republicans--to the point they were in January 2004.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/...
6. In sum, the pendelum may be swinging in our direction. And if a united conservative coaltion comes together this summer. We stand a good chance, maybe better than 50% at winning and picking up a few seats in the House (and not losing much in the Senate).
"People will not look forward to posterity who never look backward to their ancestors." -Edmund Burke
Their was record turnout for the Dums Primaries in 04. These people just are enthused with BDS.
Romney 08
is the fact that the Clinton machine has not leaked some of the 'files and files' of dirt/op research they claimed to have on Obama. Again, it's not the fact that she's losing these early primaries, it's HOW she's losing them...no way she recovers from a blowout (9 plus points) in NH.
It should also be noted that no matter who out nominee, we're likely to have suppressed turnout within some demographics of the party. That, in combination to even a modest increase in democrat turnout and the math is not there in the national election.
Go Bloomberg?
It isn't all that relevant who is enthusiastic in January. There have been plenty of candidates that have attracted enthusiasm early and then faltered off. Obama has NOT been dissected like he will eventually, and I firmly believe that once he is disected, folks will see there is little substance to the hopeful message.
I will continue to be a contrarian and predict that 2008 will be plenty strong for Republicans. I like all our candidates for President and I think anyone of them will be formidable. Iraq is turning around. Remember 2006 was largely about the failure in Iraq. That won't be an issue in 2008. Now, the economy might be however it is a long time between then and now.
Here is my write up on why 2008 will be our year.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
It is a mistake to focus only on domestic matters. We're at war. The enemy has a vote. Enemy action, particularly any attacks on us at home, will remind the public of just how much the Democrats can hurt us.
Lots could happen in the Middle East and little of that would help the Democrats. Their best shot is pretending that the place doesn't exist, and that 9/11 didn't happen. I repeat,
The Enemy Has a Vote.
Obama as DP nominee changes the picture. An attack strategy will backfire against an idealist. Rather we need a Reagan-type pragmatic idealist that can build on the hope, while making the policies realistic.
1) As you just stated, Iraq is a non-issue in 2008
2) George Soros? What % of Americans have ever heard of him? 3% maybe?
3) Hillary? Didn't you hear? Ding dong the witch is dead.
4) There is no heir to Regan in this election...not even close
5) To neglect election cycles is probably not wise..just look at history.
and yes the enemy has a vote...
Iraq is a non issue to some. It isn't a non issue to John McCain. Both Obama and Clinton weren't just wrong on Iraq but dead wrong. The war will continue to get better. What will their positions be in September...as soon as I am in office I will pull troops out and insure to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Iraq can be as big an issue as Reps make it. If we had followed what Obama and his Dems had wanted, we would have lost. That may not be that much of an issue now, but it can and should be as the primary election turns into the general election.
George Soros...exactly, 2-3% have heard of him and what would happen if that multiplied ten fold. The Dems did a masterful job of turning Karl Rove into the boogeyman. Why can't the Reps do the exact same thing with Soros? The more people know about him the scarier he sounds. It is the Reps job to get the public to know about him. You think every Presidential political advisor is known as well as Karl Rove or was that what the Dems made...
The race isn't over and Hillary losing in the primary is even better. You think Hillary will just go down and surrender or will she scorch the Earth on her way to defeat. She will bloody up Obama like there is no tomorrow before this thing is over. Hillary doesn't like losing and she isn't going to play nice. Besides, we will see what will happen in the primary, don't underestimate her.
I didn't say anything about Reagan. I said my favorite Reagan quote
the nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help'"
Apply that to any part of the Dems domestic agenda and turn it into a slogan and there you have it. How does Obama's huge health care plan sound when that quote is applied to it?
Election cycles are fine however 2006 is over. Clinton won 21996 despite getting crushed in 1994.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
If the economy continues to soften, perhaps even reaching the technical definition of a recession, then the election will not be about Iraq, it will be about the economy.
Although my personal belief is that the president's actual impact on the economy for better or worse (regardless of the party of the sitting president) is little more than cheerleader, Americans tend to either blame the president's policy or give it credit beyond what it deserves.
To me, this is the biggest danger for the GOP. How, if the economy is tanking does the GOP become the party to change the situation if President Bush has to take the blame for it?
I hate to hear it, but if the D's win, you know that for the first four years we will hear how they inherited an economy with structural problems from Bush, who they will say totally mismanaged it. I think Bush used that same line for most of his first term.
Like I said, I don't really think presidents have that much of a macro effect on economics, but as long a people believe they do, it could put a very significant obstacle in the GOP's path this fall.
But you never know how that will play. Almost universally, the Dems are proposing massive increases in taxes and government and regulation of businesses. If the GOP candidate is smart, it will frame that issue and paint the Dems policies as exactly the wrong thing when the economy is faltering, and only pro-growth fiscal policies (such as the ones the GOP will be running on) will be what the economy needs to right itself.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
What is the R candidate supposed to say? I understand the economy sucks, but President Bush did the best he could? It's not really his fault? In the debates, the only one who expressed any concern at all for the economics of the middle class was Huckabee.
Maybe I'm not thinking it through sufficiently, but it seems that the Republican argument on this will be that whatever went wrong (mumble, mumble, unforseen circumstances, unavoidable, economic cycles, yada, yada), vote for us because it would be worse under the Democrats.
I don't see that as a particularly attractive strategy.
At the very minimum, the Republican candidates are going to have to start acknowledging that people have legitimate concerns about the economy, which they really haven't begun to address.
"My opponent's "solution" to our economic troubles is to raise your taxes. Not only that he/she plans to make our domestic companies less competitive at home and abroad by burdening them with onerous regulations and new taxes - that's a surefire way to export more jobs overseas. Not only that, but he/she plans to increase the size/scope of the federal government and massively expand our already unaffordable entitlement system.
This is the wrong approach. We need to let our citizens keep, spend and save more of their own money in these trying economic times. I will accomplish this with a tax cut for the middle class, as well as tax cuts on savings. Second, I will ensure that our U.S. stay competitive and keep high paying jobs in THIS country by lowering the corporate tax rate and de-regulating business."
...or something to that effect.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
Even with the current slow-down, we're still growing at almost 5%. Unemployment is Still UNDER 5%. Home-ownership is Still at RECORD levels. Despite all the screams about mortgages going into default, we're still talking about LESS than 5% of all homeowners defaulting.
Contrast all of this to the '70s and '80s and do it loud.
Acknowledge the '90s for what they were: an anomalous, super-strong economy powered by fundamental changes in how Americans do business.
"Guns don't kill people...
"...But they sure help!"
-Paul Giamatti, Shoot 'Em Up
Say it often:
The economy was just fine until the Democrats took over congress.
:)
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Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
shall we point to as the blame? President Bush owned this economy when it was going well. He will still own it next year if it tanks.
and unemployment went up. That's called "demand slopes downward." It's Econ 101. Although the whole rise in unemployment is probably not b/c of the minimum wage increase. However, on the margin, raising the min wage increases unemployment.
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that applies to what you just said...
if if was a fifty we'd all be drunk
There are a lot of ifs in that comment and it all depends on the level of the ifs. It depends on how much it softens and how quickly. If the economy is still in a downward trajectory in November, that is of course very bad for the Republicans. If on the other hand it has steadied out by then, it is better.
A truly skilled politician can use anything to their advantage. Look at Sarkozy as an example. He ran as the change candidate even though Chirac was from his party. That is rather brilliant I would say.
The Reps need to paint the Dems ideas for what they are no matter what the economy looks like. That said, a soft economy doesn't help the Reps but doesn't have to be the death blow either.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
Well, the difference is bigger than one between an election with a highly-motivated electorate voting for Obama and a normal-sized electorate with Clinton.
If Clinton gets the nomination, after all this hope for a change within the Democratic Party and so many people putting their hearts out there for Obama, it will be a disaster as far as turnout goes. The Clinton campaign will be a zombified husk moving toward November with no verve or life left in it.
So Feb. 5's -- if the contest goes that far -- will really be a double down on Iowa and New Hampshire. If Dems win and get Obama, they win big. If Hillary goes through, Dems lose big. There's no middle ground anymore for the Dems (unless, perhaps, you think Edwards has a shot and is a good candidate).
Mike Volpe,
Hillary going negative is the best possible thing that could happen to Obama. He desperately needs that toughening-up experience before the general election.
IMO such attacks by Hillary over the next month won't hurt Obama because they simply won't get much public exposure. The MSM is on his side and the Democratic base (aka "alternative media") is NOT on Hillary's, so the two major vehicles during the primaries for bringing his negatives to general public attention just won't do it. But Obama and his campaign staff will get vitally needed practice reacting to Hillary's attacks.
Consider how unprepared John Kerry was for the Swift Boat attacks on him. The Democratic primaries had not prepared him or his staff to respond to such attacks.
Trust me, Obama and his staff will learn from Hillary's attacks over the next six weeks. Her attacks will make Obama a much stronger general election candidate.
you say two entirely contradictory things. If they don't get much exposure, then how will they toughen him. The MSM maybe on his side, however they aren't going to ignore what she says. If she starts to sling mud, the media will report on it.
Frankly, attacking Obama will be a lot easier for a Rep to do than Hillary. She would have to make the attacks personal since on policy they have no differences. His record on abortion, to the left of even Planned Parenthood (he once supported a bill that allowed doctors to kill the fetus even outside the womb), illegal immigration, he lead the charge in Illinois for driver's licenses for illegals, and his domestic agenda which is standard big government liberal, and of course, his totally wrong position on Iraq, his wanting to negotiate with Iran, etc. Those positions will be attacked in the general election.
I don't underestimate Obama because charm, chairsma and likeability are important traits, however he is a very weak candidate once that is stripped and once he faces someone that will challenge him on the issues he will be stripped.
Keep in mind, Hillary and Obama agree almost always. Right now, their primary is all about message and style. Once he faces someone with divergent views, then the real battle begins.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
you say two entirely contradictory things. If they don't get much exposure, then how will they toughen him. The MSM maybe on his side, however they aren't going to ignore what she says. If she starts to sling mud, the media will report on it.
Frankly, attacking Obama will be a lot easier for a Rep to do than Hillary. She would have to make the attacks personal since on policy they have no differences. His record on abortion, to the left of even Planned Parenthood (he once supported a bill that allowed doctors to kill the fetus even outside the womb), illegal immigration, he lead the charge in Illinois for driver's licenses for illegals, and his domestic agenda which is standard big government liberal, and of course, his totally wrong position on Iraq, his wanting to negotiate with Iran, etc. Those positions will be attacked in the general election.
I don't underestimate Obama because charm, chairsma and likeability are important traits, however he is a very weak candidate once that is stripped and once he faces someone that will challenge him on the issues he will be stripped.
Keep in mind, Hillary and Obama agree almost always. Right now, their primary is all about message and style. Once he faces someone with divergent views, then the real battle begins.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
you say two entirely contradictory things. If they don't get much exposure, then how will they toughen him. The MSM maybe on his side, however they aren't going to ignore what she says. If she starts to sling mud, the media will report on it.
Frankly, attacking Obama will be a lot easier for a Rep to do than Hillary. She would have to make the attacks personal since on policy they have no differences. His record on abortion, to the left of even Planned Parenthood (he once supported a bill that allowed doctors to kill the fetus even outside the womb), illegal immigration, he lead the charge in Illinois for driver's licenses for illegals, and his domestic agenda which is standard big government liberal, and of course, his totally wrong position on Iraq, his wanting to negotiate with Iran, etc. Those positions will be attacked in the general election.
I don't underestimate Obama because charm, chairsma and likeability are important traits, however he is a very weak candidate once that is stripped and once he faces someone that will challenge him on the issues he will be stripped.
Keep in mind, Hillary and Obama agree almost always. Right now, their primary is all about message and style. Once he faces someone with divergent views, then the real battle begins.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor
notdeadyetkc has it right. The shaky economy is the big threat to us in November. Events during the general election campaign are much less important than external ones like the economy and major national security events.
100% correct. i have yet to be persusaded as to how this election won't turn into a blowout...either my obama or mccain (if hillary comes back from the dead).
Everyone keeps mentioning the "enthusiasm gap" as portending doom and gloom for the GOP. I am not sure I buy this.
There have been plenty of times where the candidate with the more enthusiastic backers did not win the general, or won, but only narrowly.
McGovern's people were more enthusiastic than Nixon's voters.
Carter's people were more enthusiastic than Ford's.
Goldwater's people were more enthusiastic than LBJ's.
McCain's people were more enthusiastic than the Bush folks in 2000.
So let's all calm down, and stop worrying about an "enthusiasm gap." By itself, enthusiasm seems to prove nothing.
May be a good sign for Romney. I believe Fox polls always had McCain way up compared to other polls. We'll see in a few.

to see if this is an Obamagasm or busloads of itinerants from MA,VT and Canada voting for Hillary!.
The dems have a well oiled voter fraud machine **coughACORNcough** , and this could be a precursor of what to expect in the general election.
Just wondering aloud....