The Hillary Conundrum
What is a Hillary Hater to do?
By Kevin Holtsberry Posted in 2008 | 2008 Democratic Primary | 2008 Presidential Campaign | Hillary Clinton — Comments (50) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
I get paid to blog about Hillary Clinton. When I started I figured it would be an interesting job. Get up every day and look for ways to expose Hillary's leftist agenda and to counter the endless attempts to spin her checkered past into "35 years as an agent of change." I hoped to, in some small way, put a dent in her inevitability.
While that aura of inevitability is long gone and Hillary is fighting for her political life, some of her opponents are not so sure this is a good thing. One of the most interesting things I have learned over the last few months is that there is a great deal of ambivalence among conservatives and Republicans about whether a Hillary loss in the primary would be a win for them.
Don't get me wrong, most of them have enjoyed watching the Clintons get taken down a notch a great deal. But when it comes right down to it most feel that Hillary is the weakest candidate the GOP could face in the general election. We know her weaknesses and we know how to run against her goes the argument. Obama, however, is something different entirely. The race issue makes attacks difficult and the potential for a media love fest that pits the grumpy old man versus the young, hip, inspirational leader makes them nervous.
So what is a Hillary hater to do? Read on.
Part of me simply wants to see the Clintons rejected. I am often tempted to think that it might be better for the country if the Clintons were pushed aside by the upstart Obama and relegated to the ash heap of American politics. Sure, Bill would continue to raise outrageous sums of money in ethically challenged ways. And he would continue to desperately seek to secure some type of legacy for his time in office, but he would mostly be a comic figure not a threat. Hillary would return to the Senate chastised and maybe even humbled. I am sure she would seek to acquire power in some new fashion now that the White House is closed to her, but she would be just another politician; sort of like John Kerry. Call this my idealistic perspective.
A more selfish and cynical argument, however, is to hope for a long drawn out battle that leaves the Dems battered and bruised and unlikely to unify in time for the general election.
And this is where I find myself today. To hope not for a repudiation of Clintonism via an Obama coronation, but to seek to use a bitter inter-party battle to both end the Clintons hopes but also to keep the Dems from gaining more power.
As much fun as it is to see Hillary lose, and continue to deny anything bad is happening (to boldly insist that this was her plan all along), I don't think we want Obama to knock Hillary out of the race. Instead we should root for chaos; for surprising Hillary wins but with razor close votes, confusing delegate counts and bitter arguments about stolen elections, etc.
We should root for Hillary to eke out wins but for a continued stalemate on the delegate count. We should hope for ugly arguments about superdelegates and thwarting democracy. We should hope for battles that pit crucial Democratic interest groups against each other and pull the party further left (as it is already doing to Hillary).
It seem to me that what we need is for Obama and Hillary to battle it out to the bitter end doing as much damage as possible along the way. What we want is for the Dems to spend a lot of time and money arguing with each other rather than getting organized for the general election. We want a process that ends, but awkwardly and with hurt feelings and bruised egos
If Hillary comes out of this ugly scenario she will be even further weakened and will have abandoned any semblance of centrism in order to defeat Obama. She will once again have won personally but at a cost to her own party.
If Obama comes out the winner he will have likely been knocked down a few notches and will carry with him the burden of a bitter fight. You can't tell me that everyone will simply live and let live. Plus, despite all of his lofty rhetoric he is an incredibly inexperienced politician well to the left of most Americans. I like John McCain's chances of wining over crucial moderates in key states.
So if you are having a hard time deciding who to root for in the upcoming Democratic primaries, embrace your Machiavellian side and root for stalemate, chaos, and unpredictability all the way to Denver.
Not only is this the best outcome for the GOP it should be highly entertaining.
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The Hillary Conundrum 50 Comments (0 topical, 50 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
The GOP needs her.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
"The race issue makes attacks difficult..." I'm not sure I understand what that means?
See here for how the media views the GOP and will handle this issue.
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Kevin Holtsberry
Managing Editor
www.StopHerNow.com
... and I'm actually about to do it.
I am going to vote for Hillary Clinton in the Texas Democratic Primary. Maybe even today (early voting in our open primary started this morning).
Part of my action is subversive -- I do want a chaotic, close Democratic race, with Hillary as the eventual winner. That will definitely make it easier for McCain to win in November. But I also cannot fathom the idea of the lightweight, inexperienced, ultra-liberal Barack Obama as president. I do admire him for toning down the racial rhetoric, but that's about it. I hope other Republicans in Texas, Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania will do likewise (if they can do so legally -- I'm not sure if primaries are "open" in these states).
---
According to Democrats, it’s greedy to want to keep your own money, but it’s “justice” to demand someone else’s.
--Jonah Goldberg
Now that my damage is done in Washington. Does switching votes/sides cause us our own party problems with splits between McCain and Huckabee? Wouldn't it be better to finish our contest off before sending out parties to raid the enemy?
Erik
But I disagree with the following: "(Hillary) will have abandoned any semblance of centrism".
The coming fight the next few months within the Democratic Party between Hillary and Obama will have little do do with ideology or policy positions. Hillary moving to the right or left on the ideological scale will not help her.
What is hurting Hillary is the fact that she is making it clear that any tactic is valid to secure the nomination. A "win at any costs" attitude is usually not appealing and is certainly less appealing in a primary than a general election.
I don't think for one moment that Barack Obama leftist tool that he is will win the Presidency.....the Clinton's deserve to be relagated to the dust bin of history as quickly and as painfully as possible.
Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion
What to do? What to do? I thought it was hilarious when Dem's attempted to sway their counterparts by voting either "none of the above" or by switching party caucus to Republican in Michigan and voting for Romney. If Romney won, secured the nomination and then won the election I would have continued laughing. But, Romney is out now regardless of their machinations.
By your vote in the opposite parties nomination process, and should they win the nomination, and win the election...will you be guilty as an accessory?
Be careful when gambling...the house always wins.
Erik
It's really difficult to hold the White House 3 consecutive elections. G.H.W. Bush did it following the Reagan landslide, but we're in nowhere near that position at the moment.
We need to be prepared for the possibility that the Dem. nominee is going to be the next President. I would just as soon that not be Sen. Clinton.
If I had to choose, I would take Hillary over Obama. As much as I dislike President Bill Clinton, he didn't go too terribly overboard with radical liberal policies when he was president. I don't think Hillary would, either; I'm afraid Obama would.
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According to Democrats, it’s greedy to want to keep your own money, but it’s “justice” to demand someone else’s.
--Jonah Goldberg
HRC's nearest comparison is LBJ. BHO's is JEC.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
because at least Hillary wouldn't pat me on the head and tell me how much he respects me and wants to "unify," Leviathan-style, the nation by assimilating mediate civil institutions into the Central State. There are no individuals, there is only "us" the Government. "We are the change we have been waiting for."
I'm still waiting for the political cartoon depicting Obama as the Borg King. If you know any good cartoonists, tell them to go for it.
And don't forget Reply To This :-)
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
To my mind, the danger of a Billary nomination, even if it sets a lower bar for McCain to clear, is that 11th hour dirty secret. Something that comes out about McCain 2 weeks before the election and hand delivers the presidency to Hillary. I don’t have reason to believe that there is such a thing but this is politics and you never know what’s coming down the line. The further the Clintons are removed from power the better.
And the great thing about Clinton is she has a lot of secrets to drop at the last minute, too. More than Obama.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
I really don't think that it matters. Remember when everybody here was pleased three months ago, when it looked like McCain was going by the wayside? And now he's the nominee that we're supposed to be excited about? I don't think it's gonna work for him...and barring unforeseen events or tactical errors, it looks as though a Democrat will win in 2008. Why?
Look at 6 states. Ohio, Missouri, Iowa, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida. McCain would have to win in all 6 of these states to win the presidency, and it simply won't happen....he can't do it.
I do agree that we know how to fight Hilary, and we know America will get sick of her after 6 weeks of her presidency. We're sick of her now, imagine how this country will feel in four years.
I know I'm not alone in saying that four years of Democratic Presidency will be really bad, but in the long-term good for us to circle the wagons, and get a real conservative to win in 2012 (Sanford/Watts 2012 anyone??)
Hilary is the most likely to be a one-termer, b/c 30% of the US hates her already.
McCain would not have to win all six of those states. Bush didn't win Iowa and Penn in 2004.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
including making New Mexico and Nevada blue, but the others are still there.
Problem is, Republicans are not as popular right now, being from St. Louis, and in Ohio, the GOP is not as popular as it was in 2000.
In regards to the electoral college, it looks like it'd be a tough win for McCain.
...to keep Nevada and New Mexico in the GOP column. Also, you're assuming that none of the razor close states won by Kerry could be flipped to our side. Minnesota and Wisconsin were paper-thin victories for the Dems. Also, I should note that McCain us up by double-digits in Florida right now, and is also up in Penn against either Dem candidate.
“.....women and minorities hardest hit”
They are getting angry in that State. And as Louisiana Democrats can tell you: Washington DC is far away, while the State capital is right there, and much easier to reach.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Barack Obama seems like a nice enough guy, but he's woefully ill-prepared to be president even if his socialist views were acceptable. Hillary Clinton is a slightly better prepared, but not by much, plus the thought of a 3rd Clinton term is beyond horrifying. I don't care how many times the Oval Office has been cleaned since Bill left, there might still be a stain on it. It's scary to think of either of these candidates getting a shot at the White House at any time let alone when we're at war.
I think a long drawn-out, expensive, nasty Democratic intraparty fight with scorched earth tactics is the best chance for Republicans in 2008.
So I'm hoping Sen. Clinton gets a very narrow win in Wisconsin, Ohio, Texas, and PA that will leave the two Senators tied and begging/borrowing/stealing delegates all the way to their convention.
He's a communist rabble rouser, member of a racist religious sect, and favors the butchering of infants born despite abortion attempts. He favors compromising American values to kowtow to dictators abroad.
He's scum and must be destroyed.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
The kind of ridiculously over the top breathlessly self righteous sloganeering that the Republicans will need to unite behind John McCain. You go Neil! The party needs you.
"Communist rabble rouser!" "Member of a racist religious sect!" (by the way, I DO think that is a little rough on United Church of Christ...but what the heck, it gets the old blood flowing, so by all means, let it all hang out...)
You crack me up Mr. Stevens. I like reading your stuff.
Just wait until the pros at the RNC get ahold of him, should he win the nomination.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
No softballs there, not from this unbiased network and newsman, did Lauer offer to chauffeur Obama home?
Actually Obama and Hillary are a twofer. Hillary we know about, what has to get out on the net and talk radio is Obama's more radical proposals and record, of which there appears to be reams.
Enough between the two of them to keep an enterprising blogger busy for many a long night.
Might as well as enjoy ourselves before either one wins and Mother Fairness Doctrine tucks us away with an Orwellian twist of free speech.
"a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
McCain should win against Hillary or Obama, assuming no last minute revelations about illnesses or other causes for voter concern. Having said that, we should want Hillary out as soon as practicle. No question it's fun watching the two of them destroy the Democrat unity they were all bragging about earlier in the year. And yes, an extended battle right to the convention would be a disaster for them. But she's not going down without a fight; so she's not conceding until her last political breath which may well be into the summer, if not the convention. I don't care when she's out, I don't want to risk any chance of her winning anything, so the sooner the better for me.
I don't hate any of the candidates. They are all trying to do the best for the country in my opinion and it's up to us to pick the one we like most based on what we think they will do the next four years. I like small government, low taxes, a conservative foreign policy (no nation building). The republican party has been adrift on these issues in the past 8 years.
Honestly, there's nothing to dislike about Obama. I know I'll get flamed for this but he's a likable guy. Hillary's less likable but I'd feel pretty good electing a woman as POTUS. McCain would be great too. I say let's do a little less hating and try to raise the dialogue of this election, and talk about the key issues that we are all interested in. We are all neighbors in this great nation of ours and we have each others interests in mind as well as our own. That's the democratic tradition that we should build upon.
so we balance out in fact I probably hate John the most yet he will get my vote because I like my money and would like to keep more of it and he gives me the best shot at that.
One of your first comments bashed Republicans as anti-science but now you say "Let's do a little less hating," as though you were one of us?
Begone troll. Blam.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
from the perspective of someone who has gone through the exact same thought processes and scenarios and come to the exact same conclusion. Eerie! ;-)
I just never thought the day would come when I as a conservative would daydream about and hope for chaos and anarchy. I do, though.
You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.
you can't be serious ? the Clinton's are corrupt and the simple thought of them getting a chance at the White house again is unthinkable. They need to be CRUSHED and NOW. McCain cannot beat either one of the Dem candidates so you had better decide now because if that @#@^%$#% gets the nomination she will get into office. We can deal with Barrack , he doesn't have a corrupt , criminal record like the clinton's have and actually has a concience. The Clinton's are pure evil and corrupt & the sooner they are made irelevent the better off the COUNTRY will be.
At least Clinton isn't in favor of butchering babies born alive, just because the babies were the victims of attempted abortion.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
...but I remain concerned about impending obamalaise.
I voted early in the Florida primary. Find out who and why.
My advice to you guys is to resist the temptation to gloat or show your hatred for Hillary Clinton when she eventually loses. I believe that Obama will eventually win the Dem primary, but I could be wrong. Last night on Hardball, Pat Buchanan said that Hillary's voters would be more likely to vote for John McCain than Obama's voters would--I believe he is right. Obama's voters are young people, latte liberals, and African-Americans--none of these are likely to vote for a Republican, ever. However, Hillary's voters are soccer/security moms, senior citizens, Reagan Democrats, and Latinos--these people all have voted Republican in the past.
The security moms aren't big fans of Obama's whole "let's immediately pull out all of the troops from Iraq, invade Pakistan, and sit down with dictators" foreign policy. Furthermore, many of them are heartbroken over seeing the first serious female presidential candidate being completely destroyed by the media--sometimes, in a very sexist manner (Chris Matthews)--while Obama is turned into the Messiah. Many are sad to see that sexism is still so prevalent in America. You may disagree with them, but I would not advise you to belittle their feelings if you want their votes come November.
The elderly voters and Reagan Democrats aren't real big fans of Obama's foreign policy positions either. Not to mention, they really don't like Obama's plan to give drivers licences to illegal immigrants, the racist church he belongs to, the fact that he voted against handguns in the IL state legislature, the fact that he has the most liberal voting record in the Senate, or the whole cult leader thing that he's got going on.
And finally, the Latinos could stomach voting for John McCain, because they see him as someone who would be fair to them on immigration reform.
In a nutshell, many Hillary voters will be up for grabs during the general election. Many are very angry about the way the primary process seemed to play out in Obama's favor-- with FL not counting, Hillary got no momentum going into super Tuesday, whereas Obama got a ton of momentum coming out of SC, which is a less important state in the general than FL. Also, many feel that all those caucuses gave an unfair advantage to Obama, because it's much easier for people with a lot of time on their hands (young people with no kids and rich people who don't work shifts) to caucus than it is for people with jobs, children, etc. Also, caucuses exclude elderly people or disabled people who physically can't stand all afternoon, and they discriminate against active military personnel. On average, caucuses have 1% of the registered voter turn out that primaries do. Therefore, many Hillary people feel that Obama won by voter suppression, and by the media trashing Hillary and turning Obama into a God. They are angry. They would love nothing more that to vote against Obama just out of pure spite. However, if you guys give into temptation and kick Hillary when she's down, then her voters will hold their noses and vote for Obama or sit home. According to David Brooks and Michael Medved, John McCain respects and likes Hillary Clinton--he doesn't respect Barack Obama. You guys should try to appear like you respect, if not her, then her voters. Many of Hillary's voters have felt disrespected by the media and would love nothing more than to vote for John McCain--you guys just need to invite them to the party with open arms. Oh, and don't gloat--it's tacky!!
You make some valid points. It is hard though. We will try as we are going to need some of her voters to beat
hopeandchangehopeandchangehopeandchange.
of the voting blocks, but I think there are some flaws. The primary one being Obama's strength among independents. Those voters I think are FAR more likely to swing to McCain than Clinton if it comes down to that.
I also take some issue with the analysis of senior citizens. Medicare and Social Security are a much bigger deal to seniors than many other things, and if the Republican rhetoric of privatizing social security flares up, it will play well into the Democratic side.
Also at issue is Latinos. They are a block that I think is far more likely than you credit to vote Democrat no matter who the candidate is. McCain will invariably move further right on immigration as perhaps the easiest way to shore up the base (easier than the war since the unpopularity of the war with many independents will force him to walk a tightrope on the issue). And as that happens, the "equal and opposite reaction" could well be Hispanics turning away.
And I don't see the female vote backlashing quite as strongly as you do. There is certainly a segment (small I think) of people who are otherwise Republicans, but who are supporting Hillary simply because she is a woman. But I think that the vast majority has support that runs deeper than just that, and to say that that disappointment would drive them all the way across the aisle may be a reach.
And finally, I think you are way underestimating the unpopularity of the war in Iraq among Americans in general. Check any poll on the topic. Some 70-80% of people want the troops withdrawn either immediately or within a year. We can obviously debate as to which side is right, but the fact that it is a solid majority who I would imagine fall closer to EITHER Democratic candidate can't be ignored.
impressive reasons I have see given that McCain can beat Obama.
Thanks Susannah.
I'm just trying to help. I am currently doing a pediatrics rotation--some kid sneezed in my face the other day, so I am home sick with some time on my hands to pontificate my opinions.
On a side note, somebody mentioned independents. There are two things to consider with them.
A.) A lot of independents are young people who aren't officially registered as "Democrats", but won't vote for a Republican.
B.) A lot of older independents don't follow politics that closely and aren't that aware that Obama belongs to a racist/anti-semitic church, that he vote "present" 137 times in the IL state legislature, that he got a $300,000 discount on his house by doing business with a slumlord (seven of Rezko's slums, where poor people had no heat in the winter, were in Obama's district), that he has the most liberal voting record in the US Senate, and that his wife is, just now, "really proud" of her country. These things will definitely give independents pause when McCain points them all out in the general election.
I suggest y'all read this hilarious column by Gail Collins. It might shed some light on why Hillary supporters are so upset about the primary process and the caucuses in particular.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/opinion/14collins.html?_r=1&oref=slogi...
I just said this exact thing last night. While seeing Hillary, the candidate of inevitability get beat is fun, it probably is not good for the GOP.
Despite...or in spite of the Conservative base's feelings on McCain, Hillary in the general will give us all something to rally against.
I personally think her new stand on Michigan and Florida is unfair to Obama, but I hope she keeps on keeping on. Watching her lose has been fun, but now it's time to get to business. Business being, getting a candidate that can be beat, post cheating, stealing and chaos.
Beating Obama will be tough and we will end up with a man in office that we don't know...and probably don't want to know.
MelZ