Immigration Deal Would Grant Amnesty to Parents, Spouses and Children
Kennedy Wins Major Concessions From Republicans
By Bluey Posted in Featured Stories | Immigration — Comments (137) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
UPDATE: Six conservative senators are demanding that Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R.-Ky.) negotiate a “full and open debate” on the immigration legislation.
Senate Democrats and Republicans are working feverishly with the White House to put the finishing touches on an immigration proposal that could be announced later today or tomorrow. The deal would give illegal aliens living in the United States amnesty, according to confidential sources. It would also allow illegal aliens to bring their parents, spouses and children into the United States.
Multiple sources on Capitol Hill with knowledge of the proposal said Sen. Teddy Kennedy (D.-Mass.) has been able to extract significant concessions from Republicans. The critical part of the deal is a lengthy section that spells out the provisions related to “Z” visas -- or what my sources described as the “Amnesty Title” of the bill. The “Z” visas would be broken down into three categories as follows:
Z-1 -- Illegal alien present and working in the United States up to January 1, 2007
Z-2 -- Parents and spouses of illegal aliens qualifying under the Z-1 category
Z-3 -- Children of illegal aliens qualifying under the Z-1 category
Read on ...
One section of the proposal grants these “Z” non-immigrants four-year visas for an indefinite period of time. These visas would be given to people not currently in the United States if they are related to a current illegal worker.
Sources indicate that these aliens, along with their dependents, would be allowed to legally remain in the United States under certain conditions for an indefinite period of time, even if they chose not to pursue the so called “pathway to citizenship.”
The burden of proof would be low for illegal aliens to prove that they were continually illegally present in United States. This provision would reward the illegal alien for proving continual illegal presence and illegal employment in the United States with a “Z” visa. This provision in the Kennedy deal, approved by some Republicans, is clearly amnesty under any definition, according to immigration experts whom I consulted.
The proposal would require illegal immigrants to pay a fine to apply for the “Z” visa, but despite that penalty, conservatives are likely characterize this deal as a major sell out to Kennedy and his pro-amnesty allies.
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...and I voted for his dumb ass twice. He's a failure because after 9/11 he still hasn't secured US borders and refuses to put troops on the border. Why? He wants to grant amnesty to illegal aliens and he's in a complete quagmire in Iraq. Now he wants to bring back the LOST Treaty? Unbelievable.
or your short career here would have ended already. Posters here generally have a vocabulary that doesn't require profanity and most even have ideas they didn't get from Democrat talking points. Have a nice life.
In Vino Veritas
Are you Bill O’Reilly? Too bad he's right, Bush is nothing but a complete and total disgrace. He has done nothing but stab conservatives in the back since he took office. Won’t secure the border, wants to turn America into a third world cesspool, can’t win in Iraq because he’s a spineless coward, caters to CAIR and other terrorists, spends more money on big government than any president in history, does almost nothing to fight the culture war, but worst of all he never stands up to anyone because his handlers have castrated him and for that I no longer have any respect for the man. And I’m about as right-wing conservative as they come. I’ll debate any of you phony powder puff neo-conservatives any day of the week I’ve got more news articles to back up my claims then you’ll ever have. Why don’t you go smoke another cigar and listen to Limbaugh in the intellectual slow lane.
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
Blog: TMYN
Bush has been a great President. Leave the man alone. The largest attack on U.S. soil ever, an oil problem that has been brewing for over three decades and host of corporate scandals that he inherited from Clinton as well as a recession that he inherited from Clinton.
In light of all this, I believe we may be witnessing one of the greatest economic miracles in our countries history. It goes unreported by the MSM, so I guess there are that many stupid conservatives who still subconciously follow MSM leads.
If there is a single person that posts here that doesn't recognize that this economy is more robust than the fake Clinton dot.com bubble, when Clinton didn't have to deal with the 9/11, oil prices and the corporate scandals that he created, you are an official troll and need to be booted. STAT.
And the economy is just one of a dozen reasons why I could say the man has been great. But every weak soul is going to abandon this man for political expediency.
Who cares about Clinton? Just because someone doesn't like Bush doesn't mean they are a democrat. I know that is a difficult concept to grasp for Bush-bots. I can’t stand Clinton or Bush because there isn’t much of a difference between either of them just like there isn’t much of a difference between the 2 parties which I equally despise as well. Bush is nothing but the Republican Party’s Jimmy Carter.
Yeah I agree it is a miracle that we have a good economy, you make the case that we are in another bubble. I’m sure when the bill comes due for the huge budget deficits, the huge trade imbalance with China, the huge social costs of millions of illegal immigrants, the huge cost of an endless prolonged police action in Iraq not to mention the huge expansion of government social programs and whatever else, the economy may not be so good.
Anyone who stands for borders, language and culture or real conservatism I’m sure is a troll to you. I’m sure next you will be calling me a “nativist” or maybe you could get Bush’s inbred nephew to give me a lecture about what a racist I am for being a nationalist. And I never abandoned anyone, Bush abandoned the true conservatives a long time ago, I can’t believe I voted for that fool twice.
Not a nativist, but a small window guy.
You admit we are living in a economic miracle giving the circumstances. That's a huge thing for Bush to accomplish. I'll give you one more example.
Everything involved with domestic terrorism is brand spanking new. There is no template. No blueprint. No historical reference. Bush treaded brand new waters.
On one side, he all the critics complaining about how is he harsh - Iraq, USA Patriot Act is invasive, "torture", Guantanamo, Blah, blah, blah.
On the other side, he runs the risk of being too weak. Not enough troops. Tougher on the borders. More enhanced USA Patriot Act.
When its all said and done he did an AMAZING job balancing civil liberties and protecting our country in an area that he had to carve out on his own with no precedent.
I recall after 9/11 thinking that terrorsim would be part of our way of life now. I was wrong. The intelligence agencies and Bush's plans have worked great. Six years later and life for the averge American is better than it was on 9/10. That is amazing. And what is my sacrifice? I have to take my shoes off at the airport and donate a small check to the families of our soldiers every year. And say an extra prayer from time to time for our soldiers.
Again, you wont get any leads on Bush's amazing success balancing security and liberty in the MSM, but are conservatives really that stupid to be led by the MSM.
1) The economy and 2) Our enhanced security without infringing on our liberties. Bush is underrated.
I admit we are living in another economic bubble because of the reasons stated in the previous post. Just wait until the bill comes due.
But it’s not real complicated to fight the Islamofascists if you have a little street smarts, but with the so-called ivy-league “elites” (so glad I went to state) running everything it becomes real complicated due to political correctness and cowardice. Homeland Security, a brand new agency, is nothing but another inefficient government bureaucracy run by back stabbing bureaucrats who care little about national security. Did the intelligence agencies do a great in Iraq did also? And what about the insane number of Saudi funded Wahhabi mosques? We haven’t seen a single one shut down, probably doesn’t want to offend the Saudi’s. Or what about Islamberg? What is the FBI doing about that? Not to mention lose nukes on the black market, one of those slips through the porous southern border and goes off Bush is more than finished. We need to be doing much more.
If he is so great then why are we still in Iraq? I’ll tell you why. Bush doesn’t have the political will to use the force necessary to kill the terrorists. He’d rather send our best into the meat grinder, with an impossible set of rules, than to use our air power that we have invested so much into but almost never use. But it’s not just Bush, America hasn’t definitively won a war since WW II. Oh and then we hear if the tired old line “that if we don’t fight them over there we will fight them over here”. Yeah I guess so since Bush is going to let thousands of Iraqi throat cutters into America so that we can appear to more sensitive. Or how about the line that we don’t want to let the terrorists know when we are pulling out of Iraq. Well in a war you usually kill the bad guys if I’m not mistaken so then it really shouldn’t matter. In WW II Nazi Werwolf’s were lined up and shot, but since we fight politically correct wars in the new America we can’t even do that right? Either fight a war to completely destroy the enemy or don’t bother.
As far as Bush trying to placate his critics is another problem he is always on the defensive when he should stand up to them. It doesn’t work, the left is always going to hate him no matter what because they are scorpions and they will always be scorpions. Why bother trying to placate the left when they cry about so-called torture, gitmo, wiretaps and the like? And what’s worse is they are not nearly harsh enough in interrogation. At gitmo they must handle the Koran with rubber gloves to appear sensitive to the terrorists. Not to mention Bush panders to the likes of CAIR and has invited terrorists to the Whitehouse. And I wonder why he never attempts to placate his conservative critics who helped vote him into office?
And for the record I don’t get any of my information from the MSM, but rather talk radio and over 500 news websites.
(1) Language. Your only warning.
(2) Tom, give it up. Your candidacy has no chance. You've been a fine Congressman. Time to go home.
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We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!
haystack's 12th:
Conservatives (and Presidential Candidates especially) shall offer no aid and comfort to the opposition in times of legislative conflict (and ensuing political campaigns).
Why are "four-year visas" for an "indefinite period of time?" What's the average size of illegal alien families including "parents, spouses and children?"
1 Illegal Alien + 1 father + 1 mother + one wife + 2 kid + 1 wife's father + 1 wife's mother. Then when mother/father + in-laws are naturalized, 2 kids of each.
Total: 1 illegal alien. 11 extended family. Assuming only two kids per family in the good Catholic country of Mexico.
Grand total: currently 12 million illegal aliens. Potential new Americans, 12 million illegals, 132 million family. Give or take a few.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
THIS WEEK HAVE TO RENEW HER 10 YR VISA PAY A LOTTA $$$$ AND STILL TRYING FOR 2 YEARS TO GET 2 OF HER EDUCATED FAMILY MEMEMBERS AN US H2 WORK VISA TO COME HERE FROM THAILAND, A COUNTRY THAT SUPPORTED US IN THE VIETNAM WAR (AND HAS LOST MORE CITIZENS TO MUSLIM TERRORISTS THAN WE SOLDIERS (APROX 4000)IN SOUTH THIALAND.) SO NOW THEY ARE GONNA DO THIS FOR CHEATERS???? THIS IS FAIR??? SHE WANTED TO BECOME A CITIZEN AND NOW WE DECIDED AGAINST THAT. SHE IS HEART BROKEN THAT AMERICA WOULD DO THIS TO HER "DOING THE RIGHT THING? AND REWARDING THIS OTHERS. SHAME ON YOU BUSH AND CONGRESS SELLOUTS!
Favoring Mexicans is the same exact thing as discrimination against non-Mexicans.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
You seem to forget that all of the folks you listed have similar family relations that would qualify once they are in the program. The true answer is every Mexican citizen.
Recommend DC vise Boston this time around.
====
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison
haystack's 12th:
Conservatives (and Presidential Candidates especially) shall offer no aid and comfort to the opposition in times of legislative conflict (and ensuing political campaigns).
There's been plenty of folks right here who have advocated a hard line approach (a non-starter) and villified anyone who dares cut any illegal a break by hollering "amnesty" like there's a fire in the crowded theater on the Titanic. But now we got ol' Teddy in charge and he's got the power to cut a deal that's worse than what we could have gotten last year. And the worst part is that we are stuck to make a change because the problem's only getting worse and worse and the Dems aren't going anywhere. Well played.
"The pain inflicted by your country's indifference is tenfold that inflicted by your ruthless captors."
Rep Sam Johnson on the House floor commenting on his experience as a Vietnam POW
The GOP should have worked toward a deal last year when we controlled both Houses of Congress. We could have gotten a very good bill using the House as a hard-line.
Instead, we followed the Tancredo crowd who really don't have a solution to this problem, just complaints. Now we're probably going to get something that is not to our liking. What in the world did people expect?
As the lyrics to the song go -- You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away, know when to run....The GOP failed miserably at immigration reform last year and we will now suffer the consequences.
Republican style of government requires compromise, and the GOP had the potential to do so from the majority position, but due to the arrogance of some, blew that opportunity away and now are the ones who will get the icky end of the lollypop on any bill for the forseeable future. I don't think that there are 41 Senators to stop this.
Coming from the party of Kennedy, Pelosi, Reid, Murtha, Schumer, etal you have the audacity to waltz in here and throw that word around. Yeeech.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Oh,yes. Damn the ones that actually stand for our principles. What we need is a party that puts prinicple over politics, not the opposite. If the party had taken a prinicpled stand on anything -- they would still be in power. Remember Reagan and 84?
Thank you John McCain and Edward Kennedy. Thank you El president. Just remember this when you all see McCain smirking at those debates.
If this is how the politicians think we should save social security I would rather go without!
- MadWoodsman
Many who try to defend the current Ponzi scheme that is Social Security claim that massive immigration is the answer. They don't understand that this "solution" only postpones the collapse and makes the problem larger when the whole thing eventually caves.
Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.
Bienvenidos a los Estados Unidos en 2007, in other words, bend over America because Uncle Teddy and his band of spineless idiots are driving the train. What happened to our party? RIP:GOP.
Fighting fires with empty words as the banks get fat...and the poor stay poor...and the rich get rich...and the cops get paid...to look away as the 1% rules America!
...I voted for Bush twice, but I won't be voting Republican in the next election because Republicans will not secure the border and are granting amnesty to illegals. A total sell out.
to be much worse with the democrats if they win. I agree that the Bush White House has been soft on the immigration but we don't need to go from bad to worse.
The Bush Administration has been abysmal. Until the last year, when they realized that the only way to pass their open borders agenda was to pretend they were tough on enforcement, they had achieved a year after year enforcement record that was measurably worse than the Clinton Administration. I'm not buying the notion that the Democrats would be worse. Much of the recent increase in the Border Patrol was shoved down the Administration's throat by Congress. If this amnesty passes it will be the SECOND massive amnesty that gets passed while REPUBLICANS were running the White House. The strong empiracle evidence will suggest that REPUBLICANS are worse on immigration.
By the way .... How much loyalty did Republicans get from Hispanic voters after the Reagan Amnesty and why will this Bush/Rove Hispandering Amnesty strategy turnout different?
So, I might be a little young to understand the subtleties of governance, but is it wise to reward lawlessness? Is that the best course for the perpetuation of the rule of law?
Imagine that a man robs a bank, but is not discovered for some time. He establishes a new life, becomes an upstanding member of his community, gives generously to charity, outfits his family with the finest possessions and sends his children to the finest schools.
Only, into this dream intrudes the law. He is discovered by authorities and is brought to justice. This man is a thief and is living at large on someone else’s money. Now, once discovered, will people compassionately call for him to be pardoned of his crimes because he and his family have grown accustomed to their better way of life? Would lawmakers think it savage to take away the money he stole, returning him to his former means? I think not.
Likewise, illegal immigrants who found their dreams on a lie should not be granted amnesty or compromise. Yes, it is sad that certain individuals have gambled their own and their families’ welfares betting against the law. It is sad that elderly people and children alike will be uprooted and deported. Lives will be ruined. Perhaps, most sadly of all, people will be harmed and will forever blame and hate the cold, unfeeling justice of the United States.
Yet this is a small price to pay to uphold the law. The rule of law is the foundation of our society. Before the law we are all equal, and under the law we all must abide. If we begin making exceptions for compassion’s sake, what then becomes of the law? If we are so quick to choose expedience over law, what message does this send to our citizens? The law is irrevocably harmed every time it is ignored. What claim does the illegal immigrant have that the bank robber does not have? They both seek to establish a better way of life at the expense of disobeying the law. In law, this is “the fruit of the poison tree”.
Illegal immigrants mock our laws, our republic, and each of us, its citizens. They live amongst us, demanding the same privileges but disdaining our greatest responsibility—obedience to the law. It is a mistake to turn a blind eye to such conduct, and it is a greater mistake to condone such action by rewarding it. Our lawmakers, above all others, should have enough respect for our laws to know that amnesty or compromise are never the “higher course” when it comes to the law.
In addition to his crime getting forgiven:
1) Any family members who abetted the bank robbery or who were accessories after the fact are granted pardons.
2) He and his family get retroactive credit for any social security or other benefits he had earned under false identities while in hiding.
BTW This thread is now linked on Drudge.
certainly a whole lot wiser than the collected old men and drunks passing themselves off as "statesmen".
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
I hope you're happy! The House had a good enforcement bill back then but now it doesn't stand a chance.
I hope your happy! See what your wrought!
We'll remember the day the Bush Amnesty passes as the day the GOP became a permanent minority.
Considering the alternatives, I can't see voting any other way, even in hindsight. Whatever Bush does that I don't agree with, Kerry would have been FAR worse.
But thank you for asking....
Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.
are the #3 and #4 best votes I've cast (RR being #1 & 2).
That said, there is about nothing I like about GWB, but given the choices in both 2000 and 2004 - ESPECIALLY 2004 - those votes were no-brainers.
As bad as this administration is on any given issue, just take a deep breath and try to imagine how bad it would be with either President Gore or President Kerry.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
was the only choice in 2000 and 2004. Judging by what we see of the current Democrat candidates, they will have the same problem in 2008; they have no candidate who will defend America. In fact, they have no indication they would even consider any one who said they would defend the United States. Look what they did to Sen Lieberman.
you know damn well that republican voting was not lower than usual in the last election, we lost the swing voters, now put a sock in that stuff once and for all.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
Based on a sample of 1, I know for a fact the republicans lost votes. I didn't vote a straight ticket for the first time in my life. I either left it blank or voted for a third party candidate. Country clubbers, Socialist, and RINOs will never get my vote because this is the result. Until the party finds it's way out of the woods, be prepared to wander.
If we'd have had a couple more country clubbers and RINOs we wouldn't have THIS solution to the problem (I'll leave out socialists because they're in the other party).
Not voting for a Rebulican, while not a full vote for a Democrat is in effect giving them a half vote. Leaving the line blank is letting the Dems pick their guy. And yes, we did loose a few votes to people like you who surrendered to the Dems.
But Kyle8 is right, the biggest problem was that we lost the swing votes.
Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.
I think there will be many more people who vote conscience instead of party after this latest bill. They are leaving us not vice a versa.
Also, dont you think the latest increases of government, BPCFR , Medicade Drug program, et al smack of European Socalism? The Republican party isn't free of Socalist or nany staters.
If this happens, Conservatism is simply done in America(and thus, sadly, in the world). There is just no way we can survive the importation of tens of millions of very liberal voters from socialists countries - especially when they promptly get on the dole.
It is over at that point. So no more money from me, no more activism, no more time and effort. Why bother anymore? The cause will be completely lost, and all I would have gotten from my efforts to elect Republicans will have been betrayal like this.
So if this passes, I'm hanging it up in politics. For good. There'll simply be no point anymore. And I'm sure there's many more like me.
America is a great country. And one of the last really free countries left on this earth. It's going to be a shame to see it turned into at best another dead European state, and at worse another Mexico. But that's what George Bush, John McCain and now John Kyl and a bunch of other spineless Republicans are giving us.
It makes me sick.
This is why I will soon be an Ex-Republican. What's the point? The current Republican Party is spineless and unprincipled. All they know how to do is to sell us out and keep Teddy K. happy.
I'd suggest less handwringing and more focus on getting it blocked, even though the fight be uphill. I look to blogs like RedState to identify specific Republicans and perhaps a handful of Democrats who might make a difference. Rasmussen recently showed Americans do not support this kind of Amnesty laden approach. That by itself is a powerful fact in opposition to the political animals that will be making the decision.
The early reaction has got to be a flood of letters and calls decrying this deal. A lot of people didn't think it could be blocked last year and were shown different. There is no reason the same cannot happen again.
Here's a good url to keep handy
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/56_support_enfor...
Fifty-six percent (56%) of American adults favor an enforcement-only approach to immigration reform. Only 29% are opposed.
Why would anyone believe that a new 'magic law' will be any better than the last 1986 failed 'magic law'.
It is so easy to do the right thing, build the fence, beef up the border patrol, institute the real ID program, prosecute employers who hire illegals, and even gasp share data amongst government agencies. All of which require no new 'magic law'. Heck make it easy, just get the 1986 law out and do what it says. After that is done, then and only then, talk about what to do next. If the current laws go unenforced, who thinks this new magic law will even be enforced.
This amnesty plan is nothing more than the process of destroying the USA as we know it. What will we do about the next 20 million illegals who pour across to get the same deal, next time.
Amnesty encourages more amnesty, that is easy to understand. Rewarding lawlessness, encourages more lawlessness, what is not to understand about that? Hell, they wouldn't even arrest three of the "Fort Dix 6" after 54 violations of law, what makes you think a new magic law will be any better.
That's all this is, AMNESTY clothed in a 'new magic law' concept. Promises, promises, that never seem to come true.
McCain is a strong supporter of Amnesty for lawbreakers. In addition, McCain voted to give Social Security benefits to illegal aliens who use falsified social security numbers.
The Left thinks that the "axis of evil" is Wal-Mart, Haliburton and Enron.
The immigration issue should be the top issue on the right today. It should be the top issue for everyone but committed leftists, really.
I think this was political theater, designed to divert the attention of the discourse.
Seriously, that's what I think. I'm not just throwing it out there.
This manuver was an intentional distraction.
Just when you think the R's can't get any more stupid, they find a new way to lower the bar.
I think they should just put US citizenships up on eBay - at least they would still get the votes of the 'free market' types.
To say I am disheartened by would be an understatement. Bush is doing to R's what Clinton did to D's in his first term. The only difference is that GWB will do monumental and irrevocable damage to this country if this passes.
This stuff is no longer amazing, it's to be expected. That's why the Dems should have a cakewalk in 2008. I have to think that the conservatives in the party have had enough of being lied to and used in order for the Repubs to get elected. If this goes through, it will be the last time that I EVER vote for a Republican. I have already decided to opt out of the party and go Independent, but if this goes through, while I will never vote for a Dem, neither will I vote for another Republican. Enough is enough!
you know folks, there is a reason why we have the 2nd amendment. it seems to be nearing the time when americans will actually have to exercise their rights. the fed govt is obviously not in agreement with the overwhelming majority of the populace, and according to Jefferson, we are WELL overdue for a violent uprising.
Promoting an armed insurrection is not a good way to start your posting career here. It is likely a good way to end it.
Make comments like that and you may get a visit. It won't be from Thomas or Moe. Or even streiff.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
as doc holliday once said, "a reckoning", may be JUST the right phrase...
when does it end?
haystack's 12th:
Conservatives (and Presidential Candidates especially) shall offer no aid and comfort to the opposition in times of legislative conflict (and ensuing political campaigns).
And you can put me in the "agree" column with your latest blog. Which I recommended, BTW.
I am very, very careful about making brief statements that contain phrases like violent uprising. Say stuff like that, without immediate clarification in single syllable words, can be just asking for folks in cheap suits dropping by to say hi.
My daddy taught me, and I taught my boys, "do not ever threaten anyone". If you're going to do something, do it. No point in letting 'em know where to watch.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Its apparent our government is doing everything in it's power to bring this great nation to its knees. Jefferson was right, "there may come a time when the people will have to take their government back". Friends, we are at that juncture as I write! The conservatives have to know that legalizing tens of millions of 3rd world peasants in our country will be its demise. We are living in the last days of a free America and when the light of freedom goes our in America, it goes out the world over. Its was a great 232 yrs. Farewell and arm yourselves.
It's just that simple. And I'll be taking 15 family members (at present count) with me to, I suppose, the Constitution Party or something. It's easier to know you're going to lose to an obvious evil than to be led into supporting and working for an equal or greater evil dressed up in Sunday finery.
If this becomes law, within a decade or so our imported replacements will drive America's traditional majority group into plurality status, engage it in a fight over government crumbs and there just won't be a Republican Party any more. Maybe there will be something called the GOP, but it won't be grand, it won't be old (traditional) and it won't be a "party" for anyone so foolish as to remain a member.
Welcome to post-America.
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
I don't know your views and am not specifically criticizing you, but based upon what I've seen at some local GOP party functions, losing some "self-identified" GOPers would not be a bad thing.
Getting rid of some of the Buchanan/Ron Paul types would actually help in the party building effort. They drive more people away than they bring to the party.
i just can't vote anymore when both parties are pretty much giving the country away
there is no way to absorb over a 100 million immigrants that don't want to assimilate and political correctness doesn't allow us to assimilate in the schools etc.
but the difference is that I know longer vote reliably Republican as I have for the past 30 years. My new voting rule which began in 2004 is to ignore party affiliation and always vote against the incumbant. After watching closely for the past decade it has become clear to me that it does not matter what party a candidate stands for or what they claim to stand for. If they are in power they are lying and corrupt and the longer they remain in power the worse they become. If there is no incumbant, then I lean Republican as long as they claim to against open borders. But I'll be trying to throw their butt out in the next election cycle because after a few years they will have completely prostituted themselves to the special interests.
The designation of Republican or Democrat has regressed to a distinction without a difference. Neither party has any principles, both parties are socialist, neither party gives a damn about the Constitution, both parties main purpose for existing is to spend money as fast as they can on things that will help them buy power and the politicians of either Party will sell out the citizenry at the drop of a hat if they think it will get them another campaign buck and they can hide their treason from the voters. They all disgust me!
We've turned into a bunch of politically correct, passive, weenies. The majority won't understand this until we start looking like the U.K., where they're so afraid of offending Muslims that they're no longer teaching the Holocaust in school.
What other laws deserve amnesty while we're at it?
that's why I started learning Spanish. At least Mexican food and Mexican beer is good.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
This proposed amnesty for so-called illegal immigrants is one of the only things i've read in the news for good long time that's made me smile--and not in a sardonic way.
For the life of me, i can't seem to find a reasonable explanation as to why conservatives are so fervently anti-immigration (legal or illegal...it often doesn't matter). Perhaps someone can enlighten me. Some have said it's out of fear of terrorism, but that doesn't make sense...immigrants arriving in the US via the Mexican border have no propensity for terrorism, and much less a track record. Then there's the "abuse of services" argument...something to the effect that immigrants only come here to leech off of the American welfare system, which is again, invalid. Most illegal immigrants don't attempt to interfere with the welfare system out of concern that their status will be discovered in the application process. Plus, most immigrant communities are more self-sustaining than communities whose members have been citizens for many generations.
Another point is that immigrants are willing to work harder than most US citizens, and for less money. The only reason the US produces even as tiny a percentage of its foodstuffs as it does is because immigrants till the soil and pick the produce. If you'd like to pay $25 for a single strawberry, then let the mass deportations begin. US citizens want white-collar jobs with benefits and of course workers comp, et al, and many will settle for nothing less. Also, for the capitalism-is-God's-will crowd, it's a fact that the economy would collapse without the steady supply of cheap labour provided by illegal immigration.
Think about that, and then let flow the ad-hominem attacks concerning my character, personal habits, and likely post-mortem destination...
cheers
J. Brandon Loberg
San Francisco
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
My Newest Blog: Global Tepiding?
Search the RS archives, don't bother us.
You're an ignorant pest.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
an illegal with no licence and no insurance, and when you get to the emergency room you have to wait behind the long line of illegals, then when you finally return home to convalesce you find that it was burglarized by illegals.
After all they are just committing the crimes Americans won't do.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
He's from San Francisco, so he doesn't have many Mexican neighbors. Liberals have almost succeeded in forcing low income workers out of the city's housing market. There are so few poor blacks and Mexicans living there, that the city can spend its time--and J Brandon's money--coddling bums...and homeless people, too.
The "jobs Americans don't do" meme is a tired argument that has been many times debunked.
As is your bizarre welfare or services line. First of all, the cost of services to illegals is already extremely high - from schools to emergency room care and on and on. Several emergency rooms in Southern California, as I'm sure you're aware, have had to SHUT DOWN because of the illegal problem. And we're paying for their health care, not them.
But your argument on that count is bizarre not for those reasons, but because we're talking about LEGALIZING these people. You say they aren't on our services because they don't want to be caught as illegal, but the debate here is about LEGALIZING these people. So they will be very elligible for other services having removed any fear of having their status uncovered.
That puts them on welfare, head start, medicare, social security, and on and on. And even with taxes, they will be a huge net DRAIN on all of these services - a drain we can't afford at all, especially in Social Security.
The net drain has been estimated at $2.5 TRILLION. Yes, TRILLION. Where are we going to make that up?
Your terrorism argument is also weak. Having a border that anybody can just walk across at will is monumentally stupid. And if terrorists try to get into this country with a nuke where do you think they will give that a shot? Two places - our ports(container ships), or just walking it in over the border which you seem to not want to seal.
And lastly, you may be "smiling", but you won't be if you have any conservative inklings at all in a generation.
These immigrants are extremely liberal in their views, and if this legislation passes we are simply hand-delivering TENS OF MILLIONS of voters to the Democrats. Making the GOP a minority party for good, and Conservatism simply dead. Conservatism is already in a precarious position in this country. Add tens of millions of socialist-oriented voters and we just have no chance for the future.
Where will your "capitalism" and prices be then? When businesses and the wealthy are taxed through the roof and regulated into oblivion?
That Socialist nightmare will be on the heads of people like you - people who didn't have the foresight to look even a little bit ahead.
Don't waste the bandwidth on this idiot.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Since when can visa holders vote? Or permanent residents for that matter? These people aren't being given citizenship, they are being given renewable 4 year visas... Maybe down the line they will be given citizenship, but that is a long way off i'm sure. I think this is the whole reason behind the renewable 4 year visa. Also, i don't know how many Mexicans you actually know, but the majority that i know are very conservative, right wing Christians. Hell, they just now legalized abortion in Mexico City. And remember, not Mexico, just Mexico city. I think you need to get your facts straight.
Hum, wasn't the same arguments used to defend slave labor? Is their realy a difference between slave labor, indentured servatude and exploiting illegal aliens?
We are a pretty smart and hard working people. We still bring in crops in the south (even after the republican party ended slavery) and we can figure out a way to produce strawberrys in California with out criminals from Mexico.
After securing the border, if we need external laborers, we have the world to select from. Why would we select as a single source the least qualified of Mexico? This doesn't make economic sense either. Who does business with a single source when they can pick from a competitive pool?
Better yet, why doesn't government do what it did at the end of the Bracero Program and incentivize innovation? Thanks to tax credits for businesses that created and adopted new harvest machinery, there was an incredible brief spurt of genius that gave us great new tools. Then the farm labor unions felt threatened and moved to kill the incentives.
Getting "help" from outside is like my child screaming "I can't do it myself," whatever the new challenge may be. Of course she can. Of course we can. Si Se Puede! We have little robots that ran around on freaking MARS for crissakes! And government, our "leaders," are telling us we can't do the very things - the jobs - that we did all along? Hogwash!
Don't tell me we "can't" anything. Find me businessmen who still care about America first, instead of greedy globalist schleps. Give them the incentive, the funding, the good faith to build new dreams, new machines, new technologies that eliminate the need for stoop labor but require one or a couple of highly-trained, skilled technicians to do the jobs of hundreds of stoop laborers! Let them amortize their inventions properly and we'll see even lower costs for our "stuff" in a very short time. We might just be able to bring back portions of our lost manufacturing sector: We can find ways to do it better and cheaper and without sweatshops.
I refuse to believe we can't. If we amnesty our way into mediocrity, our future generations will be so reliant on "I Can't-ism, that it will become factual. And we will all, at some level, be serfs.
Business wants cheap labor for short-term gratification and could care less about any nation's future generations. In effect, the US Chamber of Commerce wants a "love doll" because it would rather not deal with all the things that come along with having a spouse.
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
My Newest Blog: Global Tepiding?
The people that want illegals in this country just enjoy being slave owners.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
The people that want illegals in this country just enjoy being slave owners.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
"greedy globalists". It's politicians like Jennifer Granholm and Marxists unions.
The manufacturing sector is alive and well in TN, GA, AL, etc. It's just dead as door nail in MI. And, BTW, those southern manufacturing jobs are the same jobs that are disappearing in MI.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
Not only is your assessment of illegals not using welfare services etc incorrect, ( the get free education paid by Taxpayers who are legal citizens - they get free medical services supported by taxpayers who are legal citizens,for starters) but your desire to reward those who enter this country illegally is typical of the disease being suffered by Ted Kennedy and his ilk.
These people sneak into the country illegal, then get a host of free services, and are now being given preferential treatment over those of us who entered the country legally, at great expense, and are contributing to the economy legally.
How DARE you accuse US citizens of not working hard or harder than illegals??? And you justify that bogus argument as a reason to encourage breaking the law by,entering the country illegally??
I have Canadian friends who work hard and entered the US illegally. Can this amnesty be extended to them? What about the hundreds of Canadians that were caught and deported back to Canada and are no longer able to even VISIT friends in the US for five years?? Can this amnesty be extended to them?
What about Koreans, Asians, Europeans all of whom would love to just enter the country as a visitor and never go home? Can this amnesty be extended to them as well??
I am the single daughter of an American. I was born in Canada.
I am on the HIGHEST priority list for receiving a green card. I grew up in Boston, but my family moved to back to Montreal --- so I had to go through considerable "hoops" to get a greencard to allow me to work in the US. Those hoops by the way were legal structures in place that All PEOPLES HAVE TO FOLLOW to be able to obtain a Green card.
As the single daughter of an American whose grandfather served in the Military I should be handed a green card. No money, no forms to fill out, no hoops to go through. If I had chosen to simply enter the country, pick up a social security card in San Fran ( which was on file since I lived in Boston) and simply applied for a job - I might have gotten away with being in the country illegally and finding some menial job.
Instead I chose the legal, ethical and morally correct path of abiding by the law to obtain my green card and enter the country legally to work. Your words and your mindset are a huge insult to me, and to all of us who choose to abide by the immigration law.
That my job wasn't cleaning up rooms in a Hotel, or picking fruit should not make me LESS desirable or make my contribution less desirable than an illegal Mexican who snuck into the country!
I worked my ass of 16 hours a day, and MY taxes allowed illegals to have access to free medical services and education.
Because I chose to return back to Canada for a few years - and because my Green card expired ( they only last ten years) I now have to go through the same voluminous amount of time and effort, not to mention financial outlay, to secure another green card. Had I not chosen to return - I'd still have to extend my green card through legal means.
Had I chosen not to do so, I would be remaining in the US illegally. Had I been caught, I would be deported, fined, and not allowed to enter into the US for any reason for up to five years. Would you and Sen Kennedy and all those supporting this amnesty bill for Mexicans, be as vocal and passionate about extending this privilige you are conferring on those who broke the law, to me, who abided by it??
For abiding by the law...I am punished. For breaking the law, illegals ( and Mexican illegals only) are rewarded.
And you sit there with your smug attitude and find bullshit reasons to justify this bill & these actions by the administration; spearheaded by Sen. Kennedy. A man who should have been charged with vehicular manslaughter -- but was "excused" because of his families money and name! No wonder he likes excusing criminals, and those Mexicans who are in this country illegally are criminals!
The U.S. is a country of laws - but this bill has rewarded those who ignore, circumvent and break the laws-- and sent a message that says laws are irrelevant.
Not only is your assessment of illegals not using welfare services etc incorrect, ( the get free education paid by Taxpayers who are legal citizens - they get free medical services supported by taxpayers who are legal citizens,for starters) but your desire to reward those who enter this country illegally is typical of the disease being suffered by Ted Kennedy and his ilk.
A reformation of immigration laws toward some semblance of realism is not a 'reward'. It's a chance to start doing things the right way. The current system reflects the typical head-in-the-sand mentality with which conservatives seem to approach...well, just about everything. The US needs immigrants. i've said and supported this before. The problem is, immigration laws place priority in all the wrong places. As i believe i've mentioned before, the current laws favour the wealthy and/or skilled and educated, and exclude blue-collar workers, laborers, etc--those who are most needed.
As for services, you are mistaken. While i'll concede that there is little stopping immigrant families from sending their kids to public schools, the old line that 'immigrants are wantonly leaching from public services' is a pathetic anthem designed to incite enmity toward immigrants. Please, before you parrot what you've heard on talk-radio, do check your facts. i'm all ears if you can provide some proof that doesn't bear the signature of yet another talking head...
These people sneak into the country illegal, then get a host of free services, and are now being given preferential treatment over those of us who entered the country legally, at great expense, and are contributing to the economy legally.
Preferential treatment?! Hardly...
Though your bit about contributing to the economy legally versus illegally is interesting, because it reinforces what i've been saying all along. If a person enters the US illegally, but is nonetheless contributing to society, then doesn't it make sense that society ought to re-evaluate what makes entry illegal? Or, to put it differently, is the application process, in its present form, an unnecessary, costly formality? Does the rigorous process of 'legal' immigration really serve any legitimate purpose? These are the questions we need ask, instead of ignoring the reality of the problems we face.
How DARE you accuse US citizens of not working hard or harder than illegals??? And you justify that bogus argument as a reason to encourage breaking the law by,entering the country illegally??
In spite of your blistering self-righteousness, i do dare say so, in a manner of speaking. The cold, hard reality that nobody wants to accept is the fact that Americans have grown so accustomed to the luxuries afforded an affluent society (relatively speaking), that we have come to require such things from employers as workers compensation (mandated by law), benefits, retirement, etc., and thus many refuse jobs which don't offer the 'full package'. What's more, the number of citizens willing to work menial jobs, or those requiring hard labour, is ever dwindling. Don't misunderstand me, though, Americans indeed work hard--we work longer days and more of them than any other country in the world, save Japan--but these hours are spent largely in offices or otherwise indoors, not picking fruit or working construction.
I have Canadian friends who work hard and entered the US illegally. Can this amnesty be extended to them? What about the hundreds of Canadians that were caught and deported back to Canada and are no longer able to even VISIT friends in the US for five years?? Can this amnesty be extended to them?
Of course this amnesty should be extended to your Canadian friends. Again, it's not so much about amnesty yes/no as it is about immigration reform. Obviously, there's something wrong when people who are willing and able to work hard and contribute to society are denied entry.
What about Koreans, Asians, Europeans all of whom would love to just enter the country as a visitor and never go home? Can this amnesty be extended to them as well??
Why not? Is it something you have against Asians and Europeans that makes you ask this question, or are you asking specifically about how those who simply overstay their visas, for example, should be treated?
I am the single daughter of an American. I was born in Canada.
I am on the HIGHEST priority list for receiving a green card. I grew up in Boston, but my family moved to back to Montreal --- so I had to go through considerable "hoops" to get a greencard to allow me to work in the US. Those hoops by the way were legal structures in place that All PEOPLES HAVE TO FOLLOW to be able to obtain a Green card.
Superfluous legal structures are just that--superfluous legal structures...it doesn't matter whether everyone has to follow them or not...their extensiveness in no way validates them. Just because something happens to be codified into law doesn't mean it's sensible, and these statues ought to be scrutinised thus.
As the single daughter of an American whose grandfather served in the Military I should be handed a green card. No money, no forms to fill out, no hoops to go through.
i agree. Sorry the immigration laws are so horrendously misprioritised. Keep that experience in mind next time you vote.
If I had chosen to simply enter the country, pick up a social security card in San Fran ( which was on file since I lived in Boston) and simply applied for a job - I might have gotten away with being in the country illegally and finding some menial job.
Maybe you could have...but now we'll never know, will we?
Instead I chose the legal, ethical and morally correct path of abiding by the law to obtain my green card and enter the country legally to work. Your words and your mindset are a huge insult to me, and to all of us who choose to abide by the immigration law.
Your honesty is commendable, but may i advise you not to speak for others...that's insulting. Again, don't get me wrong...it's not about encouraging anyone to break the law. My point is that the laws need to be drastically reformed in order for them to be relevant...surely you can agree with that, given your situation.
That my job wasn't cleaning up rooms in a Hotel, or picking fruit should not make me LESS desirable or make my contribution less desirable than an illegal Mexican who snuck into the country!
I worked my ass of 16 hours a day, and MY taxes allowed illegals to have access to free medical services and education.
So sorry things weren't easier for you...
Because I chose to return back to Canada for a few years - and because my Green card expired ( they only last ten years) I now have to go through the same voluminous amount of time and effort, not to mention financial outlay, to secure another green card. Had I not chosen to return - I'd still have to extend my green card through legal means.
Exactly! All the red tape should make you question why, as a productive member of society, the US is so intent on making your entry so difficult and expensive, especially since you had been here before. Please tell me this has crossed your mind...
Had I chosen not to do so, I would be remaining in the US illegally. Had I been caught, I would be deported, fined, and not allowed to enter into the US for any reason for up to five years. Would you and Sen Kennedy and all those supporting this amnesty bill for Mexicans, be as vocal and passionate about extending this privilige you are conferring on those who broke the law, to me, who abided by it??
i don't know Sen. Kennedy--never met the man, in fact--so i wouldn't know his position on that, and much less do i care. Nor will i venture to speak on behalf of others who support the bill.
i never once said the bill is perfect, and in fact, as time has gone by, there are many provisions i disagree with. Perhaps in due course, the bill will change such that i can no longer support it at all. However, i do think it's a step in the right direction, and while the right-wing will continue to whine incessantly about 'amnesty' and seek punitive measures against those who 'had the audacity to break the law', we need to be realistic about the fact that because of the pitiful condition of immigration law there are many, many illegal immigrants living in the US, and thus solving our immigration woes is inevitably going to require some form of compromise--perhaps one that won't necessarily leave you feeling as if 'justice has been done.'
For abiding by the law...I am punished. For breaking the law, illegals ( and Mexican illegals only) are rewarded.
Woe is you, indeed.
And you sit there with your smug attitude and find bullshit reasons to justify this bill & these actions by the administration; spearheaded by Sen. Kennedy. A man who should have been charged with vehicular manslaughter -- but was "excused" because of his families money and name! No wonder he likes excusing criminals, and those Mexicans who are in this country illegally are criminals!
Say what you will about Sen. Kennedy...i really couldn't care less...
The U.S. is a country of laws - but this bill has rewarded those who ignore, circumvent and break the laws-- and sent a message that says laws are irrelevant.
Most of the immigration laws are convoluted, cumbersome, exclusory, and ultimately pointless. Let's try being realistic about immigration, instead of trying to ignore the inherent problems, hoping they'll go away. If you don't favour reforming immigration law, then what do you propose as a solution?
As it allowed me to ignore what undoubtedly was a tedious middle and beginning.
Most of the immigration laws are convoluted, cumbersome, exclusory, and ultimately pointless. Let's try being realistic about immigration, instead of trying to ignore the inherent problems, hoping they'll go away. If you don't favour reforming immigration law, then what do you propose as a solution?
What is so complicated about the idea you can't enter the country without the proper paperwork and permissions ??
Answer: Nothing.
Caveat: If you are an apologist with an agenda better find something.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Obviously you've never known anyone who has applied for a green card, and thus you assume it's as easy as filling out a W-4 when beginning a new job. To the contrary, the immigration process takes years and thousands of dollars to complete. A friend of mine, when he began following the progress of this recent bill, told me that it took his uncle, a university professor, 5 years and $70,000 to immigrate from Mexico. By my understanding, the average American family probably couldn't afford that, let alone someone without a job, looking for work in the US...
I never said just a bit of paperwork. I said obey our laws.
Your sob song is falling on deaf ears. We don't grant amnesty because the tax laws are difficult to comply with. Oops wait we will just for illegals.
As to the rest when did it become our job to provide work for mexico ?
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
...then why have them? Your argument is fixed entirely on the premise that laws are made relevant simply because they are laws. i'm saying that while it would be nice if everyone obeyed them, the fact is the laws don't work, and need to be changed so that they do. Faced with spending years and thousands of dollars obtaining a green card that expires after a relatively short amount of time, or hopping the fence, it's no surprise that people opt for the latter. Though having the peace of mind of a legal resident would be preferable, people desperate for work can't afford the immigration process, so the only option left is to enter illegally. i realise you would probably prefer the poor stay out of the US in the first place, but the fact is, people want in. In a perfect world, everyone would fill out their immigration papers, everyone would have extravagant amounts of money to pay the exorbitant fees, and wouldn't mind waiting while the bureaucracy takes forever juggling them between departments. However, this is far from a perfect world, and if people feel they need to come to the US because there are no opportunities for them in their own countries, they'll find a way to get here, whether you like it or not. My suggestion so far has been to reform immigration law so that people are given every reason to pursue the appropriate legal channels, as opposed to being driven toward desperation and thus inclined to break the law.
The tax code doesn't make any sense. Lets not prosecute tax cheats.
My neighbor is really annoying. Boy that murder law is inconvenient.
Gee I ran down that small child when I didn't obey the stop sign. Guess we need another amnesty.
"if people feel they need to come to the US because there are no opportunities for them in their own countries, they'll find a way to get here, whether you like it or not."
And we will find a way to make certain they don't come here illegally.
It is quite obvious for motives obvious for motives you have not lain out, you want a massive flood of immigration into this country. You just see this as an easy method to accomplish it.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
"looking for a job" wandering around the US. We'll just have to feed and house them. Let them stay in Mexico.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
J. Brandon Loberg, I'll simply say it's very apparent that you're here to stir the pot and nothing more.
...otherwise you have a discussion board with no substantial discussion...ever read FreeRepublic? Just a lot of pigeonhole conservatives back-slapping one another like fratboys 'round the keg.
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
Blog: TMYN
In the Democrat primary, John McCain is probably the best Democrat running. I'd have to choose between either him or maybe Tom Vilsack, but I think Vilsack is probably more conservative, so I suppose I'll end up voting Vilsack instead. Really, as usual, none of the Democratic nominees are any good though.
...immigrants arriving in the US via the Mexican border have no propensity for terrorism, and much less a track record
Three of the Fort Dix six came here via the U.S.-Mexico border.
I'm ashamed to admit I voted for him in 2000. Make no mistake, Bush is the worst President in history
call me back when we have double digit inflation, unemployment, and interest rates, gas lines, and our civilians held hostage for over a year.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
Long time senior editor of National Review, Jeffrey Hart makes the case much better than I can
http://dartreview.com/archives/2007/05/14/why_bush_failed.php
A little tease
"Somewhere President James Buchanan is throwing a champagne party. Buchanan is no longer the worst. Happy day for him. Eighteen months to go."
and NOBODY deserves to be compared to Jimmy Carter!
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
What Carter did mostly was make America unsure of itself, which really isn't the American way. The jury's still out on how Bush will be remembered, but nobody...N O B O D Y...has ever taken our nation from the such heights of self-assuredness to the despair of cut-and-run-icide faster and with more determination to get there than this President.
Carter inherited a cynical nation and gave it "malaise." Bush was visited by horror, briefly gave us hope and ended up making the majority (even a strong plurality of his own loyalists) pine for an end to this nightmare. If the national psyche were a patient, we'd be screaming for Dr. Kevorkian. If Bush were a ship's captain, he'd be Queeg.
And the next president may well be prompted to say in his inaugural address, "our long national nightmare is over."
Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security. --Edmund Burke
My Newest Blog: Global Tepiding?
This is TREASON, pure and simple. Anyone in Congress who votes for this should be impeached.
Just when you think the Government can't get any worse, it does.
Just when you think the Government can't get any worse, it does.
THIS WEEK HAVE TO RENEW HER 10 YR VISA PAY A LOTTA $$$$ AND STILL TRYING FOR 2 YEARS TO GET 2 OF HER EDUCATED FAMILY MEMEMBERS AN US H2 WORK VISA TO COME HERE FROM THAILAND, A COUNTRY THAT SUPPORTED US IN THE VIETNAM WAR (AND HAS LOST MORE CITIZENS TO MUSLIM TERRORISTS THAN WE SOLDIERS (APROX 4000)IN SOUTH THIALAND.) SO NOW THEY ARE GONNA DO THIS FOR CHEATERS???? THIS IS FAIR??? SHE WANTED TO BECOME A CITIZEN AND NOW WE DECIDED AGAINST THAT. SHE IS HEART BROKEN THAT AMERICA WOULD DO THIS TO HER "DOING THE RIGHT THING? AND REWARDING THIS OTHERS. SHAME ON YOU BUSH AND CONGRESS SELLOUTS!
Take of the CapsLock and calm down. You might last an hour...
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
I hear ya, Great White. After 5 years of putting up with red tape from the Gov, FINALLY my wife from India has had her visa go through. We were just married in India in Dec. 2006. Prior to that, we had been engaged for 5 years (one month after 9/11 happened). I can only imagine that we will soon be going through what you and your wife are currently having to put up with.
and grab a cutlass..
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"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison
I'm married to a foreign national who is LEGALLY working in US on an appropriate visa.
This special exception for illegal immigrants annoys me, as my wife and I struggle to fill out the appropriate paperwork. It makes the IRS forms before Turbo Tax seem easy (grin). Every UNIFORMED Immigration Officer has a different opinion about what is needed:
(a) one photo vs six photos
(b) this form but not that form
(c) once you submit you can/can-not travel abroad
(d) once you submit you can/can-not continue to work unless you reapply for the right to work
(e) also submit chicken bones from a Vermont chicken killed on the third Tuesday of the nine month immediately after a full moon unless your social ends with an even number then send "knife-wielding spider monkeys jacked up on Mini Thins"
(f) etc
The employer's immigration attorney and the employer's immigration paralegal also have differing opinions. Needless to say, I read the paperwork and form yet another opinion.
My wife had to stand in line like everybody else. Why can't the illegal immigrants obey the law like other law abiding residents?
By the way, I'm a native born US Citizen.
Actually if truth be known, I think the main reason that ilegals do not "stand in line" to do it legally is simple. Most would not qualify for legal entry. Many do not have or, are unable to get, the desired education level, job skills, clean health screens, or criminal record's checks. Mexico is exporting there underclass, criminals, and poverty to our country, I do not think the majority are desirable candidates, even if they are hard working and otherwise "law abiding" (i.e outside of entering the country illegally, human and drug trafficing, forgery, Identiy theft, tax evasion, driving without a license or insurance, theft of social services, and other minor crimes).
If Bush signs an open borders bill then there is no the most feable minded man to ever have sat in the oval office.
And yet the party is bveing tricked by a man even worse--> John McCain, the only senator I dislike more than Ted Kennedy himself.
Unrestricted, uncontrolled illegal immigration, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and reverse these trends.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." TJ
mbecker908, this single statement made now would most likely cause many members of our leadership to fill their boots full. i do have a question for you: does the consistent refusal to protect our nation's borders justify civil disobedience, or "armed insurrection", in your words. or is neither justified in your opinion?
i guess my main point is this, when is it actually proper to go to such a level in opposition to the state? where is the line?
ps. do you think our founders would hesitate for a single heartbeat to arm themselves and begin walking south?
pps. i apologize for the amount of questions, but these queries have yet to be answered satisfactorily from anyone.
ppps. id be more than happy to educate any man in a suit on how our nation has defended its borders throughout history. one can learn many things from the past.
Weeping and pulling of hair may look good, but in the end it accomplishes nothing.
Baraging your congressional representatives may help, but when they are the likes of warner and webb, it accomplishes nothing.
So then, where is the line drawn?
Each citizen is responsible for preparing and practicing thier Constitutional obligation of being able to join a militia. Before you jump to conclusions about what a militia is read this:
http://rwva.blogspot.com/2005/06/who-is-rwva.html
Armed resistance is the absolute last resort because of the utter destruction it will cause.
Unfortunately, if the citizens are unprepared (either tactically and psycologically), it is a threat with no substance. The 2nd Amendment was not placed there to assure 'sportsmans rights', it's intention was clear - that is, if a governement ever came to power that abridged the inalienable rights of the citizens, the citizens were obligated to remove that governement. By force of arms if need be.
Are we there yet? I don't think so, but you can see it from here.
BTW, love the nic.
Or are they busy being sued by La Raza? Or maybe the MSM has decided this is an appropriate time to ignore them. It seems to me that they just dropped off the face of the earth a few months ago.
I can't help but imagine how wonderful life and our once-great republic would be if the GOP would renounce liberal ideals. I'm sick of the frauds and the naive conservatives who keep voting for the crooks like Bush, Giuliani, McCain, Bloomberg, McConnell, Hagel, Romney and on and on and on and on and on...
Only another revolution will save the republic now.
If this passes I swear I will never vote Republican again. Bush has got to be the biggest idiot we have ever elected, or I am for voting for him twice!
Well once again our government steps up to the plate and strikes out totally. The governments solution to the illegal immigration problem? Make all illegals legal and let anybody who wants to for any reason immigrate! Our leaders say they will do a background check and only the illegals with no criminal history or criminal records will be allowed to stay. How in the world would that work? The government would have to forgive ALL THE FELONIES AND MISDEMEANORS COMMITTED by these illegals while they were here illegally searching for a better life! At this moment there are currently almost 700,000 fugitive illegal aliens with in United States borders. Do we let the Supreme Court handle the constitutionality of this and the appeals from ALL FELONS currently serving terms in prison for any ONE of these same crimes in their own misguided search for a better life. How do we legally dismiss tax evasion, illegal entry, use of fraudulent identification on documents such as Social Security, drivers licenses, green cards, and illegal use of government services with out doing the same for all the people currently serving time in prison for every one of those exact same offenses? Wouldn't that be discrimination? None of this passes the common sense test!
Now that OUR NEW CONGRESS has solved the immiration issue whats next?
Maybe next they can declare to have solved the GWOT by declaring there is no such thing as terrorists.
The 2006 Republican Party of Texas platform states,
"No Amnesty! No How. No Way."
We could be looking at another "read my lips: No New Taxes" spirit buster if our elected Republicans cave on this issue.
Source:
http://www.texasgop.org/site/DocServer/2006_Plat_with_TOC_2.pdf?docID=20...
Dog
Deep in the Heart of Texas
.. will be when Immigration Reform (read sellout) is passed.
In conjunction with SPP, LOST and the transportation corridor, these politicians are selling out our sovereign
nation. What motivation do conservatives need to oppose this? National polls indicate a majority of our population opposes amnesty and the Congress defies the will of the people on this subject, yet Dems scream "will of the people" concerning Iraq.
Get ready, folks, to be welcomed to the NEW nation, The Un-united States of Amexica!
I called John Kyl's office. His DC and Phoenix offices weren't even answering the phone. They had their voice mails on. And both were full (if that tells you anything). I finally got through to someone in his Tucson office. I also called my Senators (Chambliss and Isakson). Additionally, I emailed my Senators.
My main questions and points on all the calls:
* Have they cut a deal on amnesty with Ted Kennedy? (all denied it)
* If this happens, can they give me a list of the laws that are okay to break? Obviously, breaking our immigration laws not only isn't enforced, it's rewarded. I just want to know what other laws we're allowed to break.
* If they pass this, I am done with the Republican Party (not that it matters -- importing tens of millions of new Democrats would make my vote for a Republican irrelevant).
I was respectful, but very serious and clear. The key phrase I wanted to get across was "done with the Republican Party".
this is rome in year 390AD, when the barbarians tribes, like the visigoths, were able to settle within the empire, never assimilated, eventually directly contributeed to the fall of the empire.
look at mexico and south america, its hard core leftsit socialism, they love guys like che. now why are we supposed to expect that they will assimilate, embrace capitalism, free markets? the life boat will sink.
and by granting amnesty we let mexico totally off the hook for leaving their citizens in poverty and exporting them here.
There are at least 30 million illegals already here. Multiply that by at least 10 over the next 10 years with chain migration. These numbers are conservative. This amnesty bill is in effect a treaty handing the united states to south america in exchange for cheap labor. It is also a willful, premeditated act to destroy the american people. That is Bush's legacy.
One more point. Up to now the full effect of the invasion has not been felt by most people. If it gets bad enough they just flee to other states. Where are people going to flee to when in ten years the whole country is a third world crap hole? That might be when you have full scale civil war. Not advacating that, I'm predicting it. Those pols who think this settles the matter need to study some history. Tensions leading up to the first civil war in this country simmered for many years before open war resulted. You can't illegally and forcefully steal a country from it's people without longterm devastating effects for everybody. Bush does not care about. that.
Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.
how can this current bill even be considered as constitutional??? holy hell!, our country is being sold out from underneath our very feet.
anger.........welling.........inside!!!!!!
As this issue takes shape, my opinions on it have begun to change. While i remain in favour of major revisions to immigration policy, in effect allowing more people to immigrate here 'legally' (which is somewhat of a loaded term in itself), this current measure, which i'll refrain from calling 'amnesty', leaves me with some concerns, despite my aforementioned approval of the measure.
An article this morning:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/ap_on_bi_ge/mexico_immigrant_outrage... (Traci Carl, Associated Press)
Edmundo Bermudez is quoted as saying, with regard to the slated preference given those with degrees or skilled-job training, "The United States already has enough people with college degrees. Who is going to cut their tobacco?"
He has a point. i mentioned earlier that capitalism depends on a steady supply of cheap labour, and despite my misgivings about capitalism (on which i won't elaborate here, as discussion of the system's merits--or demerits, as the case may be--belongs elsewhere), the US is nonetheless very much invested as a capitalist economy, and if said cheap labour must come from somewhere, it's clearly the lesser of two evils that the need is filled by people who are seeking it by their own volition. All too often, people elsewhere are not so lucky, and do not have a choice. In Jamaica, for example, under the terms of the country's post-independence IMF (after the former colony was milked for resources, then subsequently jettisoned by Britain), so-called 'Free Zones' were set up so that industrial countries could move in and essentially enslave large parts of the near-starving population. The 'free' in 'Free Zone' basically means free of pesky human rights regulations, and out of the host country's jurisdiction--essentially sweatshop colonies set up by large corporations for the express purpose of exploiting people for low-overhead profit.
While illegal immigrants in the US often work jobs sans the protection of workers compensation, health care, etc., they do so having prior knowledge of these circumstances, and still it's their decision to come north. Personally, i'm glad they do. Immigrants should be lauded for their willingness to work the jobs they do, and for the hardship they bear in accessing them. As an added benefit, the sharing of culture has proved invaluable.
The anti-immigration crowd continually asks "Why don't they enter legally?" The answer doesn't require much explanation: US immigration policies are such that getting into the country is extremely difficult, extremely expensive, and often takes years to complete. Essentially, it precludes most people who would seek unskilled labour. If a family is desperate to find work, and so look toward the US, they are unlikely to have the 5 years, $70,000, and 'qualifications' necessary for legal entry. So is it any wonder why people are inclined to hop the fence?
The problem of illegal immigration can be combatted by reforming the laws, and, believe it or not, relaxing the borders. Approaching this with aspirations for a symbiotic relationship between the US and Mexico is the only way to make any progress. Arrogant denial of the fact that the US needs immigration as much or more than immigrants need the US is neither realistic, nor does it improve anything.
It needs well educated immigrants who can speak English in a reasonably fluent fashion and who are willing to obey the law to immigrate.
What we don't need are several million dirt poor Mexicans who are, by and large, uneducated and generally unemployable in occupations other than entry level service jobs - food service, landscaping, drug sales, etc.
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
"The United States already has enough people with college degrees. Who is going to cut their tobacco?"
People were asking this same question in the aftermath of the Civil War. Without all that cheap labor, who would cut the tobacco?
It turns out that the free enterprise system is able to come up with solutions to these problesm. Not only that, but these solutions actually increase the producivity per worker, and thus increase the overall standard of living of everyone.
For some strange reason there is a small but noisy faction in todays GOP which wants to turn back the clock to the days of stoop labor, and thinks that what we really need is more people doing low skill, low pay work.
As an added benefit, the sharing of culture has proved invaluable.
Oh, its hard to put a price on it, to be sure.
i mentioned earlier that capitalism depends on a steady supply of cheap labour
Capitalism does not depend on a steady supply of cheap labor, you Marxist quack. It depends on capital, as anyone should be able to figure out. It depends on increasing productivity. It depends on innovation. It depends on highly skilled and well paid workers.
The cost of labor in the US has been higher than in most other countries for the last fifty years. If capitalism depended on cheap labor it would have died out in the US a long time ago. That it did not die out, that it thrived instead, is due to the fact that it actually depends on the factors I mentioned. Meanwhile capitalism seem to be faring poorly in Mexico and dozens of other countries with an abundant supply of cheap labor.
At some undetermined point in the last twenty years, most Republicans became economically illiterate.
...no, i'm afraid not...if you must know, i'm an anarchist; though you probably wouldn't understand my motives were i to elaborate, so i won't waste my time.
Frankly, your benign assessment of capitalism is nauseatingly unrealistic. As much as i would like to believe that the key to a 'successful' capitalist economy is innovation, skill and productivity, the proof has long been in plain sight that this is not the case. Your notion was killed when someone realised that one can make more money peddling inferior craftsmanship than things that stand the test of time. That's when people began saying, "They sure don't make things the way they used to." If your toaster lasts the duration you're alive, it's as if the manufacturer forgoes a number of opportunities to profit. If the thing breaks every couple of hundred slices, that's roughly the same amount of money made per unit, but multiplied every time it's replaced. Do the math.
The reason capitalism demands a steady supply of cheap labour is that the market has an inherently stratified workforce. To elucidate: people are paid proportionately for the work they do, and these proportions are usually determined by the physical products they work with. For instance: someone selling big-ticket items generally takes home larger sums of money than somebody selling hamburgers. The guy at the burger joint can't expect to be paid six figures and get a full benefit package because hamburgers are cheap, and really, how many can one sell in a day? The guy selling cars, for example, is taking in thousands at a time, and therefore, his salary is higher. If burger joint guy had the same salary as car guy, the price of a single hamburger would have to be so high, people would stop buying them. Class division, or whatever you choose to call it, is necessary to the capitalist system. It would be great if everyone was well paid and had full health care packages, but it's not conducive to the survival of the system this way. Like it or hate it, that's the way things go unless we change...
If capitalism depended on cheap labor it would have died out in the US a long time ago.
Again, wrong. The reason capitalism hasn't died in America is because we've managed to find cheap labour. Immigration (most of it the 'illegal' variety) and outsourcing have provided that cheap labour. Every time a major corporation fires a few hundred thousand domestic workers and hires new ones for pennies on the dollar in developing countries (often using the 'Free Zones' i mentioned earlier), this becomes all the more apparent. Think of that the next time you whine about how Latinos are 'taking American jobs'. It just so happends that the jobs in question are being jettisoned like excrement from a spacecraft...sold to the lowest bidder by companies receiving corporate welfare payments taken out of yours and my tax money.
Contrary to your own self-evaluation, you're hardly unique: I can get another half-dozen of your sort of commenters without raising a sweat. Although we usually don't bother to try. So why don't you start that post over, only this time, without the sneering?
That's not a request, by the way. That's a instruction from a moderator.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
I was gonna respond and I read it a second time and had one of those feelings...
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.
These faux capitalists with their economic theories derived from plantation owners tend to get under my skin.
i'm certainly not a capitalist, either, but whatever...who cares...
Economic theories derived from plantation owners should get under your skin...frankly they get under mine, too. By the way, that's the second time you've pulled the slavery card. It's really rather interesting that slavery, besides being abominable in just about every way one can think of, is not quite the 'free labour' it was assumed to be. It's actually better suited to the capitalist model to employ a class of people who are essentially wage slaves--who are paid very little, but because they are paid at all, their masters are relieved of their obligation to clothe, shelter, and feed them. Slaves, on the other hand, are enormous overhead to their masters, requiring space, clothing, food, shelter, and security.
Additionally, those who live 'paycheck to paycheck' are forced to pump all of their money back into the economy, and retain nothing. The rich, on the other hand, though their expenditures are greater, do hoard money, removing it from the economy altogether, or at least causing it to circulate only above a certain threshold in the socioeconomic hierarchy, in much the same way as a hailstorm begins. Proponents of the 'trickle-down' theory should note this phenomenon.
In the macro picture, over many years, the rift between the ever-swelling wealth of the rich and the shrinking wages afforded the poor reaches such vastness that the poor begin to take extraordinary measures in order simply to live. That's precisely what precipitated the French Revolution, and it had a lot to do with the Watts riots, as well as those that took place after the Rodney King beating, to name but a few. Of course, that's a polarised example. In the interim, it's already begun in the form of more people feeling forced to turn to crime in order to get by, and in increased homelessness. Also, the 'welfare state' and 'handouts' conservatives whine incessantly about are a direct result of the ailing nature of capitalism.
Although it's a whole other can-o-worms, and i don't really feel like going all the way through it here, many subtleties of US foreign policy encourage illegal immigration. The US government makes a concerted effort to shape the emerging global economy in such a way that American-style capitalism becomes ubiquitous, but on the condition that the US remain always on the top. What a way to set the stage for people to do whatever they can to get to America, because ostensibly that's where the opportunities are to acquire the wealth they've all been told they need.
"You do it to yourself, you do, and that's why it really hurts." - Radiohead
Lets take a few of the more fun things you have said.
The rich, on the other hand, though their expenditures are greater, do hoard money, removing it from the economy altogether, or at least causing it to circulate only above a certain threshold in the socioeconomic hierarchy, in much the same way as a hailstorm begins. Proponents of the 'trickle-down' theory should note this phenomenon.
Ok Huey Long how do you hoard money ? I have a really big jar of coins that I don't use much anymore since I got a washing machine. I also have a few Mint two dollar bills that I got when they were first printed.
Aside from the above I hoard my money in a bank, or in stocks, or in equity in my home, or as the down payment for my car. Now lets see what happens to the money in the bank. There is this little thing called fractional reserve banking. Perhaps you have heard of it ? What happens is when my money is in the bank, the bank immediately lends out the majority of it. They do this by making loans (Business, credit card, consumer, mortgage etc). This money is inserted directly into the economy. THE BANK DOES NOT HAVE GNOMES AND A DRAGON SITTING ON HEAPS OF COINAGE Now on the other means of hoarding money oddly enough every single one of them involves depositing it into a bank.
So First question BUZZ.
As to the "Wage Slaves" two hundred plus years of upward mobility achieved by and large without the helping hand of government disputes your theory. But lets go further. The capitalist model is not the plantation owners model. The capitalists model is to employ capital so it achieves maximum return. The way this is done is to use capital to buy equipment that increases production reducing labor cost.
By your way of thinking nobody would use power tools because they would mean using higher paid labor and laying out for something unnecessary.
The French Revolution had to do with a widening gap between the rich and the poor ? I suppose crop failures and the near bankruptcy of the french treasury from funding the American Revolution and wars with england didn't play a part ?
Buzz: Three for three.
Please do go through our foreign policy situation and how we manage to screw over the rest of the world. You obviously have a better opinion of our bureaucrats than I do.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
...and i appreciate the lack of ad hominem attacks. Anyhow:
Of course banks invest money back into the economy...but only at a certain threshold of it. The money stays in it's own 'layer' of the economy, or else it ascends. It rarely trickles down. Although you may put your money in the bank, and that money is invested, the point is for the bank to capitalise on its investment, essentially remaining in control of your money, and to turn a profit having it in their custody. Needless to say, it's unlikely that money will reach the hands of, say, a small-business owner, or a worker there, except in the form of a loan, which must be paid back, with interest.
Of course nobody is sitting on a pile of money in their basement, but nonetheless, money is sucked upward, and even though it circulates, or as you said, becomes a car, a house, etc. once it hits that threshold, it falls into the hands of people (or companies) who are also at that level, or a similar one. Nobody buys a new car out of a shop somebody started in their garage; they buy cars from major corporations, who are continually swallowing one another up, becoming even bigger. True, there are people who work there at lower levels who make in wages a small fraction of the company's profits, but the majority goes to the higher-ups, who likewise put it into banks, or into their lifestyle expenses.
Gatta go...more later.
Odds are there are a couple of credit cards. Gee there is that money trickling down to you.
Now being a small business owner lets see how does the money get into my hands. Well I can take out a loan from the bank, but probably not. No if I need capital equipment I will in general lease it. This lets me project my cost against my cashflow from the equipment. By leasing it improves my bottom line immediately and in general I don't have to go through the difficulties of dealing with the bank.
So what has happened ? Money has gone from the bank to the leasing company to me the small business owner. The funny thing is I also work with a leasing company for making my sales. My customers look at purchases much the way I do.
Now how does the money get from me to the bank to my employees ? Well oddly enough Labor has and continues to be my single biggest expense. When I started the company all my employees made more money than I did. Go figure.
As to your theory about cars perhaps you might want to look up Studebaker.
The facts dispute you as always. But lets for one second assume your statement is true. If it was in fact true that would mean the largest fortune in the country today would constitute a larger percentage of the wealth of the country than the largest fortune of a hundred years ago.
So lets look.
1905 John D. Rockefeller became the worlds first billionaire.
his fortune represented 3% of the GNP at the time.
2007 Bill Gates has a total net worth of approximately 40 billion. Well quite a concentration there maybe your'e right. Oops GNP is now 13 trillion dollars or about .3%
Hmm gotta say that concentrating is kicking in.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
It is an absolute flood. Let me explain. In my case, the current tax and interest rate situation has stimulated an extraordinary amount of investment in new commercial construction. The poor are not leading the charge here, rather, the wealthy are. They would like for their money to work for them as much as possible, the numbers work out right now, so they are spending their capital developing office buildings, condos - you name it.
Since this is happening, I am selling a vast quantity of the product my multi-billion dollar, privately held company manufactures. With the exception of my mortgage, I am completely out of debt, and socking away money for my retirement and children's education. Because of my vastly improved financial situation, I am now planning on building a few middle income spec houses, and possibly being involved in a development of townhomes. Why? Because the numbers work for me too, and putting my capital at risk to reap this reward is worth it.
So the effect multiplies. The people who will put in the drywall, and plumbing, and sell me the appliances also benefit from the investment that the evil rich have made. Perhaps they will hire more workers, buy more equipment - you get the picture.
Let them make scads of money - I will help. I will also reap the benefits of the rising tide. However, whining about inequity on a message board mever made anyone a dime. If you can handle it, get out and take advantage of the best economy in a lifetime. If not, continue to mope around and berate "the man".
That's the great thing about America - it's you choice. Trickle on.
It looks like we really need a miracle here, RedStaters. We need to pray hard that we've got 41 votes in the Senate to block this. I have my doubts...
You know, President Bush is making it very easy for people to call his presidency a failure, by cohorting with Teddy Kennedy on this sham of a deal.