The Iraq Study Group Report
Warning: Compared To Me, Tolstoy May Have Been The Epitome Of Brevity
By Pejman Yousefzadeh Posted in Featured Stories | Foreign Affairs — Comments (14) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Having had some time to digest the news stories concerning the ISG report and to think about my take on the issue, I wanted to write this post. The first one is here and I stand by it. But there is more to say; and in this post, I want to cover (a) negotiating with Iran and Syria; (b) the future outline of Iraq and (c) more on the linkage between the fate of Iraq and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Let us take these issues in turn.
Read on below by clicking on the permalink.
Negotiating with Iran and Syria
The ISG participants argue that you have to talk with your enemies and that at the end of the day, the people with whom you make peace are your enemies. Fair enough. As I have said many a time, I can deal with negotiating with Iran and Syria so long as (a) we know what our bottom line is; (b) we know what Iran's and Syria's bottom lines are; (c) we are prepared to leave negotiations if our bottom line is breached; (d) we have a Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement prepared to resort to either as an actual alternative to negotiations or as a tool by which to gain concessions from Iran and/or Syria by presenting our Best Alternative as a credible incentive to leave negotiations that are not going well. In addition to all of this, we should be prepared to ratchet up the pressure on the regimes in Iran and Syria by introducing the principles of the Helsinki Final Act as part and parcel of our negotiations to deny the regimes in Iran and Syria credibility and to hasten the day when reform can reach Iran and Syria as it did the Soviet Union (American negotiators were able to use the Helsinki Final Act as a lever by which American influence and power was augmented and Soviet power was diminished by revealing the acts of the Soviet state as illegitimate).
The ISG report says the following about negotiating with Iran and Syria:
Dealing with Iran and Syria is controversial. Nevertheless, it is our view that in diplomacy, a nation can and should engage its adversaries and enemies to try to resolve conflicts and differences consistent with its own interests. Accordingly, the Support Group should actively engage Iran and Syria in its diplomatic dialogue, without preconditions.
The Study Group recognizes that U.S. relationships with Iran and Syria involve difficult issues that must be resolved. Diplomatic talks should be extensive and substantive, and they will require a balancing of interests. The United States has diplomatic, economic, and military disincentives available in approaches to both Iran and Syria. However, the United States should also consider incentives to try to engage them constructively, much as it did successfully with Libya.
Some of the possible incentives to Iran, Syria, or both include:
i. An Iraq that does not disintegrate and destabilize its neighbors and the region.
ii. The continuing role of the United States in preventing the Taliban from destabilizing
Afghanistan.iii. Accession to international organizations, including the World Trade Organization.
iv. Prospects for enhanced diplomatic relations with the United States.
v. The prospect of a U.S. policy that emphasizes political and economic reforms instead of (as
Iran now perceives it) advocating regime change.vi. Prospects for a real, complete, and secure peace to be negotiated between Israel and Syria,
with U.S. involvement as part of a broader initiative on Arab-Israeli peace as outlined
below.
Well, let us see. If Iran and Syria have an interest in a stable and secure Iraq, one cannot help but wonder why, as the ISG report points out, "Iran backs Shia claims and supports various Shia militias in Iraq, but it also supports other groups in order to enhance its influence and hedge its bets on possible outcomes," and Syria "[facilitates] support for Iraqi insurgent groups" despite being "threatened by the impact that the breakup of Iraq would have on its own multiethnic and multiconfessional-society." Quite clearly, Iran and Syria see it in their interest--at least for now--to continue to foment chaos and violence in Iraq. The ISG is doubtless right that by destabilizing the region, Iran and Syria stand poised to reap the whirlwind, but for now, the Iranians and Syrians just don't see it that way. And even if they come around, they can do so without negotiations with the United States. All the Iranians and Syrians would have to do is to reduce their support for the insurgency and allow Iraq to stabilize. Negotiations with the United States are not a precondition or a prerequisite for this activity taking place.
For many of the reasons above, the Iranians and Syrians would be more than happy and content to allow us to continue to work in stabilizing Afghanistan. We are committed to this activity with or without negotiations with the Iranians or Syrians and our offer to stabilize Afghanistan in exchange for negotiations and cooperation in stabilizing Iraq is an empty one since even if the Iranians and Syrians reject our offer, we will go ahead and continue to work in stabilizing Afghanistan. As such, this supposed bit of common ground also falls by the wayside.
Accession to international organizations like the WTO is certainly an attractive carrot since it holds out the promise of economic prosperity for both Iran and Syria. But accession to international organizations will not be enough to jump start the Iranian and Syrian economies. Internal reform of those economies will be needed more than the beneficial effects of joining any international organization before dreams of economic prosperity can be realized. Absent such reforms, membership in the WTO amounts to rather little, or at least, less than what could be realized if vibrant market reforms took place. Does anyone believe that the current leadership structures in fundamentalist Iran or Ba'athist Syria are prepared to implement such reforms?
Even if Iran and Syria are willing to cooperate in stabilizing Iraq, we will continue to have stark and serious differences with them, including conflicts over (a) Iran's desire to attain nuclear power; (b) Iran's and Syria's support for terrorism; (c) Syria's hegemonic activities in Lebanon. Relations with the United States will likely not be improved until these knotty problems are resolved. Does anyone believe that they will be solved anytime soon, or that any cooperation offered by Iran and Syria on Iraq will necessarily serve as a harbinger of cooperation to come on the above three remaining issues of contention?
We have done rather little indeed to foment or encourage regime change in Iran. Our outlays for alternative and dissident media in Iran are paltry at best and we have taken few measures to ally ourselves with the dissidents in Iran. Moreoever, even if we confine ourselves to emphasizing "political and economic reforms," as the ISG report calls for, the Iranians will likely claim that we are advocating regime change. This negotiating dog seems liable not to hunt in the way the ISG would like it to.
Syria knows that we will involve ourselves in the Arab-Israeli peace process even absent negotiations with it over Iraq. As such, the prospect of peace with Israel will likely not serve as an incentive until and unless Syria perceives that independent of what is going on with Iraq, there is an incentive to peace with Israel.
Moreover, did you know that we already negotiate with Iran and Syria? C'est vrai, mes amis. C'est vrai:
As Washington waits breathlessly for luminaries like Jim Baker, Lee Hamilton, Vernon Jordan, Sandra Day O'Connor and the rest of the Iraq Study Group to tell us what to do about Iraq, it's past time to knock down a myth that appears to be driving the panel's deliberations: the notion that the Bush administration's refusal to talk with Iran and Syria is the reason for our inability to stabilize Iraq.
The premise--pushed by Democratic politicians and others--is absolutely false. The people pushing this, among them Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski, and Sen. Chuck Hagel, seem intent on sandbagging President Bush into negotiating from a position of weakness over some form of "grand bargain" with some of our most deadly enemies. But the fact is that plenty of engagement has already been taking place. For one thing, Syria retains an embassy in Washington; and the United States has one in Damascus. As for Iran, there are plenty of opportunities for the United States to talk with it in forums such as the United Nations and the International Atomic Energy Agency, where both states are represented. And America has been trying for decades to resolve differences diplomatically with both regimes. Since the September 11 attacks, Washington has held discussions with Tehran and Damascus on a wide array of issues, including matters such as Afghanistan; al Qaeda's international terror networks; Iraq; Lebanon and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The real issue today is that the Bush administration, which has been repeatedly burned in recent years when it tried to engage these governments, prefers discretion and holding lower-level talks. These regimes insist on holding well-publicized summits that yield them P.R. windfalls without forcing them to substantively change their policies. The fact is that, since the Carter's presidency, U.S. administrations of both parties have tried unsuccessfully to persuade these governments to end their support for terrorism and their efforts to sabotage Washington's efforts to facilitate peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Following Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's historic November 1977 peace mission to Israel, for example, the Carter administration attempted to persuade Syrian President Hafez Assad (father of the current Syrian strongman Bashar Assad) to join the Middle East peace process. Assad responded by making Damascus the headquarters of a rejection front dominated by the pro-Soviet terrorist groups like George Habash's Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Ahmed Jibril's Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.
In 1982 and 1983, veteran U.S. diplomats Philip Habib and Morris Draper conducted months of arduous shuttle diplomacy in an effort to end the violence in Lebanon--a civil war that began in 1975, followed by Israel's 1982 military campaign to uproot Palestinian terrorist groups based there. Syria did everything it could to sabotage efforts to stabilize Lebanon: It likely facilitated the September 1982 assassination of Lebanese leader Pierre Gemayel and undoubtedly assisted the rise of the Iranian-backed Shi'ite terror organization Hezbollah, whose "credits" included the October 23, 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut which killed 241 U.S. servicemen. And for good measure, Syria waged an intimidation campaign that forced the Lebanese government to abrogate the U.S.-brokered May 1983 peace treaty it signed with Israel less than a year later.
Read it all. Again, I am not saying that we can never talk to the Iranians and Syrians. I don't like to rule anything out in the course of negotiations. But the ISG has not put forth the best arguments for negotiations with the Iranians and Syrians, and its rationales are either undermined or diminished by the facts on the ground.
The ISG members did a lot today to diminish their arguments as well. In a press conference held to announce and discuss their findings, much of the ISG's time was spent answering questions about negotiating with Iran and Syria. Consider the following exchange:
QUESTION: One of the aspects of your report is outreach to Iran and Syria. What indications do you have from the discussions that you had in preparing the report that these two countries are prepared to be at all helpful?
And I notice that you've taken the nuclear issue out of the equation. You say that should not be discussed in connection with Iraq. Why would the Iranians agree to come to a table and talk about Iraq unless the nuclear question and other questions were addressed?
[Former Secretary of State and ISG Co-Chairman James] BAKER: Why did they agree to come to the table and talk about Afghanistan without talking about the nuclear issue? They did, and they helped us, and it was important.
In our discussions with them -- and the report points this out -- we didn't get the feeling that Iran is champing at the bit to come to the table with us to talk about Iraq. And in fact, we say we think they very well might not.
But we also say we ought to put it to them, though, so that the world will see the rejectionist attitude that they are projecting by that action.
With respect to Syria, there's some strong indications that they would be in a position, if we were able to enter into a constructive dialogue with them, that they would be in a position to help us and might want to help us.
But we're specific in the report, there must be 10 or 11 or 12 things we say there that we will be asking of Syria. The suggestion that somehow we're going to sacrifice the investigations of Pierre Gemayel and the assassinations of Gemayel and Hariri or others is just ridiculous.
So we're talking not about talking to be talking. We're talking about tough diplomacy.
Note, if you will be so kind, the nature of the "tough diplomacy" being advocated by Secretary Baker. It is fine and good to link the issues of the Gemayel and Hariri assassinations to discussions with Syria over Iraq, but we cannot link the issue of Iran's quest for nuclear power with negotiations between the United States and Iran over Iraq. Why? With all due respect to those who want to solve the Gemayel and Hariri assassinations and bring about a just resolution regarding those issues, isn't the question about whether Iran has or is seeking nuclear weapons technology a wee bit more important? If you think not, I guess you are fine with the ISG's decision not to link the nuclear issue with negotiations between the United States and Iran, but you would still be a rather strange bird if you took the public (or private) position that the Gemayel and Hariri assassinations will have a greater long-term impact on American security interests than will the question of whether Iran has or will have nuclear weapons. And if you think that the Iranian nuclear question is more important, then you are as likely as I am to be confused about the ISG's decision to delink it from negotiations with Iran, while linking the Gemayel and Hariri assassinations with negotiations between the United States and Syria.
To enter into negotiations, a clear head and a clear articulation of rationales and interests is necessary. Such is not provided by the ISG. Again, I stress my recognition that one must talk to one's enemies to make peace and to engender a just form of stability. But the argument won't make itself. Advocates must make and advance it in the course of forming and presenting an honest rundown of the security interests involved in such negotiations. On this score, the ISG fails.
The Future Outline of Iraq.
Quoth the ISG report:
The costs associated with devolving Iraq into three semiautonomous regions with loose central control would be too high. Because Iraq's population is not neatly separated, regional boundaries cannot be easily drawn. All eighteen Iraqi provinces have mixed populations, as do Baghdad and most other major cities in Iraq. A rapid devolution could result in mass population movements, collapse of the Iraqi security forces, strengthening of militias, ethnic cleansing, destabilization of neighboring states, or attempts by neighboring states to dominate Iraqi regions. Iraqis, particularly Sunni Arabs, told us that such a division would confirm wider fears across the Arab world that the United States invaded Iraq to weaken a strong Arab state.
While such devolution is a possible consequence of continued instability in Iraq, we do not believe the United States should support this course as a policy goal or impose this outcome on the Iraqi state. If events were to move irreversibly in this direction, the United States should manage the situation to ameliorate humanitarian consequences, contain the spread of violence, and minimize regional instability. The United States should support as much as possible central control by governmental authorities in Baghdad, particularly on the question of oil revenues.
As expected, then, the ISG continues to grasp at the mirage of a unified Iraq. But note the qualification above: "If events were to move irreversibly in this direction, the United States should manage the situation to ameliorate humanitarian consequences, contain the spread of violence, and minimize regional instability."
Quite so. And guess what? "Events" are indeed "mov[ing] irreversibly" towards "devolution":
. . . As this NPR news report points out, sectarian violence is already causing demographic divisions in Baghdad. Such divisions may very well spread to other cities. Indeed, there is nothing to suggest that the phenomenon of sectarian violence will be restricted to Iraq.
The danger for American policymaking in Iraq may stem not from the drawing of lines between sectarian groups in Iraq, but rather from the refusal to draw lines. Whether America wills it or not, sectarian divisions are already taking place and they will result in violence that is more frequent and unmanageable unless the United States brings the situation under control. To do that, the U.S. may continue to try to work against any kind of planned division of Iraq. Or it may come to grips with the fact that the various Iraqi sects are finding it close to impossible to live with one another and accordingly, craft a viable partition/federalization plan.
So . . . how much more "irreversible" must the trends towards "devolution" be before the ISG concludes that partition/federalization must be an option, or that it is the only option remaining to cool down sectarian violence? How much more is to be endured before we remember that partition/federalization is not the bugaboo that the ISG makes it out to be? Perhaps a full and fair hearing for the partition/federalization option would have revealed flaws in the plan that would make it utterly unworkable at least in the near term. Fine. In that event, honest advocates of partition/federalization would be willing to drop that option for the near term if our minds were changed and if in good conscience we could no longer support the option after a fair hearing had been afforded to it. But a fair hearing has not been afforded to it by the ISG. Quite the contrary; no public hearing has been afforded. And yet, we are to swallow this rejection, take the ISG's word as gospel, ignore the whole "If events were to move irreversibly . . ." line that seems to indicate the ISG's recognition (but unwillingness to admit publicly) that de facto divisions already exist in Iraq and put the partition/federalization option in the rubbish bin until inevitably and "irreversibly" we are forced to retrieve it from the trash, dust it off and try to implement it--hoping that we are not too late and hoping that the time for implementation has not passed.
I feel warm and fuzzy about this prospect. How about you?
Linking the Arab-Israeli Peace Process With the Fate of Iraq.
I stand by what I wrote here:
Other than the fact that Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Israel and the Palestinians are all located in the Middle East, it is difficult, if not impossible, to understand what the Arab-Israeli peace process has to do with the situation in Iraq. Even if we snapped our fingers and magically solved one problem, that would not lead automatically to the solution of the other problem. The insurgents in Iraq do not fight because they are aggrieved over the treatment of the Palestinians. They fight because they want to achieve political and military power in Iraq, power with which they could dominate Iraq and use it as a terrorist sanctuary and base. Solving the Arab-Israeli conflict will not encourage the insurgents to put aside this goal and there is no effort made to tie the Arab-Israeli conflict to the situation in Iraq except via an argument by assertion.
The irony of it all is that in the buildup to the first Gulf War, Saddam Hussein tried to use the Arab-Israeli conflict as a way of uniting the Arab world behind him. The first Bush Administration--assisted mightily by its Secretary of State--prevented this linkage from gaining legitimacy.
That Secretary of State was, of course, James Baker. He should have taken a lesson from the days of his youth and resisted making a linkage between Iraq and the Arab-Israeli conflict in the presentation of the ISG report.
How soon the news cycle updates itself! Since this morning, when I wrote those words, two new articles have come to my attention.
Here's the first. I know not what to make of this magazine because I know not its public reputation. I hope it is a trashy publication because if not, the scoop it offers us is frightening and disgusting to contemplate:
The White House has been examining a proposal by James Baker to launch a Middle East peace effort without Israel.
The peace effort would begin with a U.S.-organized conference, dubbed Madrid-2, and contain such U.S. adversaries as Iran and Syria. Officials said Madrid-2 would be promoted as a forum to discuss Iraq's future, but actually focus on Arab demands for Israel to withdraw from territories captured in the 1967 war. They said Israel would not be invited to the conference.
"As Baker sees this, the conference would provide a unique opportunity for the United States to strike a deal without Jewish pressure," an official said. "This has become the most hottest proposal examined by the foreign policy people over the last month."
Officials said Mr. Baker's proposal, reflected in the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group, has been supported by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns and National Intelligence Director John Negroponte. The most controversial element in the proposal, they said, was Mr. Baker's recommendation for the United States to woo Iran and Syria.
"Here is Syria, which is clearly putting pressure on the Lebanese democracy, is a supporter of terror, is both provisioning and supporting Hezbollah and facilitating Iran in its efforts to support Hezbollah, is supporting the activities of Hamas," National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley told a briefing last week. "This is not a Syria that is on an agenda to bring peace and stability to the region."
Officials said the Baker proposal to exclude Israel from a Middle East peace conference garnered support in the wake of Vice President Dick Cheney's visit to Saudi Arabia on Nov. 25. They said Mr. Cheney spent most of his meetings listening to Saudi warnings that Israel, rather than Iran, is the leading cause of instability in the Middle East.
"He [Cheney] didn't even get the opportunity to seriously discuss the purpose of his visit--that the Saudis help the Iraqi government and persuade the Sunnis to stop their attacks," another official familiar with Mr. Cheney's visit said. "Instead, the Saudis kept saying that they wanted a U.S. initiative to stop the Israelis' attack in Gaza and Cheney just agreed."
Under the Baker proposal, the Bush administration would arrange a Middle East conference that would discuss the future of Iraq and other Middle East issues. Officials said the conference would seek to win Arab support on Iraq in exchange for a U.S. pledge to renew efforts to press Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Golan Heights.
"Baker sees his plan as containing something for everybody, except perhaps the Israelis," the official said. "The Syrians would get back the Golan, the Iranians would get U.S. recognition and the Saudis would regain their influence, particularly with the Palestinians."
This story seems to contain exceedingly poor sourcing and it would be astonishing to think that someone with the political antenna of Secretary Baker actually thinks that a Middle East peace conference sans Israel can be called to jump start a process leading to the resolution of all final status issues affecting the implementation of a comprehensive peace agreement between the Arabs and Israelis. And as shoddy as the Bush Administration's political operation is nowadays (nice job with the midterms, guys. What do you do for an encore?), I can't believe the Administration would go for the proposal either.
But this is far more credible and as such, far more worrisome:
A reference to Palestinians' "right of return" in the report issued by the high-level Iraq Study Group broke a diplomatic taboo which sparked immediate concern in Israel and surprise among Middle East policy experts.
The reference was buried deep inside a 160-page report that urged US President George W. Bush to renew efforts to revive Israel-Palestinian peace talks as part of a region-wide bid to end the chaos in Iraq.
"This report is worrisome for Israel particularly because, for the first time, it mentions the question of the 'right of return' for the Palestinian refugees of 1948," said a senior Israeli official, who was reacting to the US policy report on condition he not be identified.
A Middle East analyst who was involved in the Iraq Study Group discussions but did not participate in drafting the report expressed surprise when the reference was pointed out to him by a reporter.
"It's hard to know whether that language got in there because of carelessness -- I know there were many revisions up to the very last minute -- or whether it was a deliberate attempt to fuse something to the Bush rhetoric which wasn't there before," the analyst said.
Query: How many people think that someone as careful and as politically attuned as Secretary Baker "carelessly" threw "taboo" language into the ISG report?
The 1993 Oslo peace accords between Israel and the Palestinians calls for a resolution of the issue of Israeli and Palestinian "refugees" as part of a final status agreement that would include the creation of a Palestinian state.
But they do not use the term "right of return", which is a long-standing Palestinian demand -- rejected by Israel -- that Palestinians who fled or were driven out of what was to become the Jewish state in 1948, as well as their descendants, be allowed to return home.
Bush, in a 2002 speech in the White House Rose Garden, became the first US president to formally back the creation of an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel, but he also did not mention a right of Palestinian 'return'.
The story may have added that--as longtime Middle East peace negotiator Dennis Ross (who worked for the Reagan, Bush the Elder and Clinton Administrations) pointed out--in his "last, best offer" to the Israelis and Palestinians just before leaving office, President Clinton made the resolution of final status issues and the implementation of a comprehensive and lasting peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians dependent in part on the Palestinian decision to give up the right of return. President Clinton's action was entirely in line with longstanding American policy. Now, longstanding American policy is being junked?
"'Right of return' is not in Oslo I or Oslo II, it's not in the Bush Rose Garden speech, it's not even in UN 181, the original partition resolution -- it's part of the Palestinian discourse," said the US analyst.
Er . . . why are we doing this? What possible linkage is there between Iraq and an Arab-Israeli peace agreement? Why do the Palestinians get the right of return that deviates from longstanding American policy? What kind of Bizarro-diplomacy is this?
No one knows. No one can say.
I don't want to dump on the ISG because it is filled with people I believe to be fundamentally patriotic and concerned about national security. I am willing to give every member of the panel the benefit of the doubt regarding their motives and intentions. And I am willing to call publicly for the Bush Administration to continue to use the ISG as an advisory panel on the issue of Iraq--if only to try to maintain a bipartisan consensus on one of the most pressing and important national security issues to face us since the end of the Cold War.
But let no one turn a blind eye to the many flaws of the ISG report. It fails to lay out a comprehensive and convincing case regarding negotiations between Iran and Syria on the one side and the United States on the other. It fails to dismiss the partition/federalization option with anything approaching convincing arguments. And its advocacy concerning the linking of the Arab-Israeli peace process with the reconstruction effort in Iraq and the shape of a future Arab-Israeli peace agreement make no sense whatsoever. Let us credit the ISG with concentrating minds and generating debate. But the debate over how best to resolve the problems will continue beyond the presentation of the ISG report. And well it should, for the report itself is fundamentally flawed in three of its key particulars.
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["Perceived enemies", huh? After that - and looking at your website - I gotta wonder whether you have to scratch your head and think about it when you're trying to figure out who you hate more: Jews, or United States Marines. a gutn tog, shlemil.]
[You'll also notice that your hate site link has been disabled. Just one of the little ways that we running dog lackeys of the Zionist puppetmasters keep you stalwart original-sovereign types down. That should cover all the bases: Jeebus, you can't keep track of the kinks of these people anymore without a scorecard... - Moe Lane]
Your analysis reflects the extinct ideology of Cold War dinosaurs like Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. These folks have never been able to evolve beyond their former glory (and I say that jokingly) preferring instead to wrap themselves up in a bubble world where they don't have to adapt to changing times. Your attempt to frame this issue in Cold War terminology ("Helsinki Final Act", blah blah blah) is total non-sequitur. The Middle East is not the Soviet Union, and it's 2006, not 1986.
Why are you afraid to talk with our perceived "enemies"? Are you concerned that we might actually come to a sensible settlement to our differences and make peace? Would you rather we use of our expensive military to kill, maim and destroy instead? What's wrong with talking?
As flawed as you may think Baker's proposals may be (and I would probably agree in some instances), you should remember that in his time we actually enjoyed relations with nearly all the nations in the Middle East. And we even had some sway with Syria, because we talked to them. Contrast with today, where not only have we ruled out talking with nations we dislike, we as a nation are disliked by more nations than we ourselves dislike. There's something to be said about that old diplomacy now, isn't there?
And why not exclude Israel from a Middle East peace conference? When you're trying to get something done, you need to remove the obstacles. You also miss the obvious: Israel, despite what you've been led to believe, has no strategic value to the US. The oil is in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Israel has nothing to offer but sand and strife. An old statesman like Baker readily understands this.
Above all else, you need to consider that you've closed yourself off to the possibility that everything you've been taught, told and treasured is wrong, wrong and wrong.
I hope you'll come join us for a stay at [our wannabe Ravensbrück -- no thanks.]
Why are you afraid to talk with our perceived "enemies"? Are you concerned that we might actually come to a sensible settlement to our differences and make peace
Not in the least, because I know that there is no risk of tht happening.
The "perceived" enemy (as you put it so as to place the blame on us) has been around since time immemorial. And folks like you who think we can talk and make peace with them have been around just as long; and you've been betrayed every time, usually at great cost to your fellow man. Frankly, I can't think of a case in the entire sorry history of man on this rock where you folks have been right; it has always eventually come to conflict.
What is it in the "progressive" mindset that hungers to believe it when autocrats, dictators, terrorists, et al, tell them what terrible things they plan to do, the "progressive" simply refuse to believe that they mean what they say? And then they profess surprise when the bad guys stick to to the rest of us.
And why not exclude Israel from a Middle East peace conference? When you're trying to get something done, you need to remove the obstacles. You also miss the obvious: Israel, despite what you've been led to believe, has no strategic value to the US. The oil is in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Israel has nothing to offer but sand and strife.An old statesman like Baker readily understands this.
Yes, and we've been practicing the 'realpolitik' of the Bakers of the world since WW II and the mess in the Middle East is the result; one cheapa*s monarchy or dictatorship after another. As long as they said they were anti-Communist, or had oil, and they promised to be our cheapa*s monarch or dictator, who cares what else they did in the world.
No thanks, the visionaries and progessives have been selling that tripe for centuries and it is just as wrong now as it has always been.
John
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Ethnic humor is part of human nature. The Dutch tell Belgian jokes. The Belgians tell French jokes. The French tell English jokes. The English tell Irish jokes. The Irish tell Irish jokes.
>>>>>And why not exclude Israel from a Middle East peace conference? When you're trying to get something done, you need to remove the obstacles.
Ja! Herr Komrade ser gutt!! I'm sure Ostengropenfuhrer Heydritch would have given that one two thumbs up. Boy if those inconvenient jews would just stop existing, you and Mel Gibson could go relax and have a beer.
2006 is done, 2008 is another day and another fight
... about where this is going:
Why are you afraid to talk with our perceived "enemies"?
1) perceived
2) "enemies"
Answer:
1) Blame America First™
2) It's All Bush's Fault™
Nothing to see here, folks.
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"I don't know." -- Helen Thomas, when asked by White House spokesman Scott McClellan, "Are we at war, Helen?"
Member for
4 hours 18 min
All of this being in reply to abraham, of course.
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"I don't know." -- Helen Thomas, when asked by White House spokesman Scott McClellan, "Are we at war, Helen?"
This one's for Abraham.
"Perceived" enemies???? You mean the guys that run around with those signs (in English) that say "Death to America" and routinely refer to America as "The Great Satan".....?
I don't know that talking to Iran/Syria would be the panacea that libs think it would be. These countries are not our friends ... the problem with "negotiations" is that they lie, and can view diplomacy as a weakness. Why should you make a deal with someone you shouldn't trust -- and who will not allow you to verify?
They do not want to be our friend. Also -- they cannot be our friend. They need the US to be the "Great Satan." It's a PR thing -- for decades, when the US ignored or supported the cr@ppy governments in the Middle East (the realpolitic the US practiced there for most of the 20th century) the Middle Eastern people were encouraged to think that it was the US which was the cause of their misery -- not their own crappy governments. This maintained stability for the governments -- but incidentally also caused fundamentalist groups to be formed which glommed onto the idea that if only America and Israel were destroyed, life would be hunky dandy. We're paying the price for that, now.
Add this into the principle described above: The real way to gain status in the Middle East is to "give America a black eye." Or to "poke a stick in the eye of America." I've seen some documentaries about the man on the street attitude towards Bin Laden and apparently, People love Bin Laden because "he stuck his head up" or he "stood up to America." Etc.
And, we're going to talk to the leaders of these countries, who have everything invested in demonizing America and whose people will respect them more if they make the US look stupid or act foolish -- and it will all be hunky dandy?
Speaking of Iran -- do you remember when the Iranian "students" kept 50+ Americans hostage for the better part of a year? And would show video's of the hostages -- after they'd been obviously beaten -- to the world. And, nothing effective happened? After that, the mullahs must think they can do anything to the US, and nothing will happen to them. I have not heard much of an apology from Iran for the episode, either. I don't think we should whisper a word in diplomacy to Iran without demanding an apology, and reparations from them.
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Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes
John
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Ethnic humor is part of human nature. The Dutch tell Belgian jokes. The Belgians tell French jokes. The French tell English jokes. The English tell Irish jokes. The Irish tell Irish jokes.
I am glad to see so many RedStaters opposed to the ISG report and in favor of putting more boots on the ground in Iraq. We definitely need to increase the level of troops in order to complete the mission. Since so many on this blog are in favor of increased troop commitments, I am sure that I will run into all of you at the local recruiters office as you put down your laptops and pick up a rifle to put your asses where you mouths are. This is a civil war, the American Civil war, where the privileged and wealthy send to poor and less fortunate to do their bidding and dieing. If you want this battle to go on until victory is assured, freedom secured, and mission truly accomplished, let's all get involved. How many of you read the report of the current conditions in Iraq and said I need to get involved, or I sure hope my son, daughter, niece, nephew, wife or cousin enlists and helps defeat these terrorists in this important battle? Until you have something or someone truly at risk in this battle, or are willing to die for the principles you expose, then these are empty rhetorical words.
Fool me once...you won't get fooled again
...espouses the principle of civilian control of the military.
But thanks for stopping by!
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
I'm tired of this crap.
Fool you once, nevermind, you are just a fool.
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Thou art the Great Cat, the avenger of the Gods, and the judge of words...-Inscription on the Royal Tombs at Thebes
A few brief and off-the-cuff thoughts from me.
1. I fail to understand what interest Iran, specifically, has in stabilizing Iraq. Maybe I'm being thick, but I just don't get it. Seems to me that if they're hell bent on achieving maximum regional power, they want a conflict out of which the Shia will probably prevail (at least with their assistance) to keep going right to the end result.
2. I think we should be talking to Iran and Syria, but as you and the WSJ have noted, we are. I don't however believe that talking to Iran, specifically (Syria is another matter), is going to yield any real results. Fundamentally, Jim Baker seems to have forgotten that international relations are about power and violence, not cooperation and everyone getting along if only we do the nice chit-chat thing.
3. I do not think we should lump Syria and Iran in together, which seems to be something the ISG is advocating for. Syria may be siding up with Iran right now, but having a teeny bit of experience with and firsthand knowledge of Syrians, I do not believe for a second that that will endure as soon as Syria wakes up and realizes Iran is basically running the show. The Syrians hate nothing more than being dominated and dictated to, and frankly, I don't seen where else Iran is going than in that direction. We'd do better to deal with them, separately, than together with Iran.
4. Bringing Iran and Syria into the WTO is pretty pointless. In Syria's case (which I know much more about), a lot of internal reforms would be needed to kickstart the economy, and without them, I fail to see what WTO membership would achieve. Here are just a couple: 1) scrapping the rule that if you die with money in the bank, the government automatically gets 1/3 of it (why no one in Syria keeps bank accounts) 2) scrapping the really silly credit card usage fee, which frankly just encourages manufacturers and shop owners in Syria to stay in the 19th century, and puts people off buying goods in bulk (not helpful-- also extremely infuriating for tourists) 3) scrapping the rule that effectively gives automatic rights of permanent tenancy, regardless of defaults in payment of rent, to any Muslim, meaning that no one in their right mind in Syria wants to rent out a property to a Muslim family or business owner. I believe all of this is still on the books-- it certainly was just a few years ago, in any event.
5. The Middle East peace process has nothing to do with Iraq. It is indeed important, but separate in my mind.
6. Dealing with the prospect of a nuclear Iran is way more important than dealing with Syria's involvement in, e.g., the Hariri assassination. I tend to think of Syria as a very hungry mosquito in comparison to Iran, which is quite clearly something more of a very angry cobra. I find Syria, and their backing of Palestinian groups and meddling in Lebanon to be extremely frustrating and destabilizing for the region, but frankly, they are not in the same boat as Iran, which is actually focused on causing problems for many countries other than Israel and Lebanon with a much nastier arsenal.
7. I am not fan of actually splitting countries into two or three or more pieces whenever different ethnic or religious groups start fighting. I don't believe that the ability to function as a nation-state is predicated on ethnic or religious homogeneity. That said, devolution or a full-on federalist system should seriously be looked at in Iraq's case. Devolution has proven a good way of quieting sectarian claims (albeit much less violent and nasty ones than we see in Iraq) in the UK, and the use of a federalist model in, e.g., India, seems to be quite effective in keeping different groups with different interests from being at each other's throats continually.
8. Right of return for Palestinians-- I do think at some point this has got to be looked at again, even if the obvious answer is "no," since it is the principal grievance that a lot of ordinary Palestinians (like two friends of me and my husband) have with Israel and without that problem, a lot could probably be settled. However, again, I don't understand the logic of tying the Middle East Peace Process or any discussions surrounding it, to Iraq. The two are entirely separate.
9. As much as it may be uncomfortable for some, Israel is not about to be relocated to Madagascar. Therefore, it seems pretty obvious to me that if we expect, out of a Middle East Peace Process, for everyone to get to the point of being able to live with each other, starting again with one of the region's nation-states (any of them would do, actually) being excluded is quite dumb.
I'm sure there is more that I meant to say, but I guess my overall gut feeling is that for a group with a couple of prominent supposed-realists leading the charge, this report strikes me as totally lacking in terms of adherence to any kind of realist philosophy or thinking. These guys seemed to have missed the point that Iran, specifically, has become a major center of power and a balance to the combined weight of us and Israel in the region, which ultimately should dictate a lot of how we handle things-- i.e., I suppose, talking may be necessary and could even yield something, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Iran shares the same objectives as us or that playing nice with them is going to kill off the underlying conflict. And let's try to get everyone else (principally, Syria) onto our side so that Iran's power base is kept as marginal as it can be, at least for the time being.
Liz Mair is the editor of WWW.GOPPROGRESS.COM, a RedState-style blog for libertarian, mainstream and moderate Republicans
"Talk" is a code word for appeasing Iran and Syria. Talking to them means that the left wants to surrender to Iran and Syria and hope for the best. Remember words and their distortions are central to the left.
If you always find yourself arguing the exceptions rather than the rule you just might be rapidly sliding down your own slippery slope to irrelevance. -CommonCents

"Iraq Surrender Group"
"Israel Screwing Group"
and probably others as yet unrevealed.
John
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Ethnic humor is part of human nature. The Dutch tell Belgian jokes. The Belgians tell French jokes. The French tell English jokes. The English tell Irish jokes. The Irish tell Irish jokes.