Well, at least it isn't August. [Updated and bumped.]
Which is not really all that great a silver lining, but you take what you can get.
By Moe Lane Posted in Foreign Affairs — Comments (28) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
[UPDATE]: We are now on day two of what is increasingly becoming more difficult to call "rioting" in France. "Youths" have reportedly injured 77 police officers: there are troubling reports that firearms are beginning to be used. So far, only "conventional" (which I assume means "no automatic weapons") and hunting weapons: but you don't throw a bottle of burning gasoline at someone unless you're trying to kill him, so I suspect that there are a bunch of "rioters" out there right now busily making arrangements to find something that will penetrate ballistic armor.
See Gateway Pundit for more details.
It's going to be interesting to see what Sarkozy does about this:
Tensions after French police attacked
By ZORAN JANKOVICVILLIERS-LE-BEL, France - Youths assaulted a police station, torched cars and vandalized stores in a weekend rampage that injured 21 police officers in this rundown Paris suburb.
The violence Sunday night, prompted when two teens were killed in a motorbike crash with a police patrol car, was a reminder that tensions that drove nationwide riots in 2005 in immigrant-heavy housing projects remain unresolved.
Read on.
The length of time it takes to determine the names of the two teenagers whose death sparked these riots is itself enough to spark suspicion, and sure enough: the names were Moushin Souhhali and Larami (the NYT also has the first names). For those playing at home, the names are consistent with North African Muslim naming practices... which you already knew, because if they'd been more, ah, Gallic the media would have broadcast that on all channels.
Meanwhile, over twenty cops are injured (one was apparently hit in the face with an iron stick), various buildings, businesses and a police station were burned down, and there is at least one report of guns being used by the rioters. Oh, yes, there was the usual set-cars-on-fire thing, which is practically a tradition by now when it comes to French permanent-immigrant riots. All of this, mind you, from an incident where two kids got themselves killed by running into a police car while not wearing helmets.
So what is Sarkozy going to do about it? Well, isn't that just an interesting question? Here's his problem: it is not a good idea to allow people to think that the proper response to a perceived community outrage is to throw a Molotov cocktail at the nearest police station. Unfortunately, this observation comes a little late in the day, as it were. To be fair, there is a good deal wrong with France's (and most of the rest of Europe's) method of dealing with its unassimilated immigrant minorities - "let 'em rot" is not a viable long-term strategy - but that observation's just a bit late, too. And Sarkozy's supposed to be the tough one, which doesn't mean that he can't eventually try to sooth things... but he probably can't do it before he goes out and cracks heads first.
So it's not looking what you'd call good, unfortunately.
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Well, at least it isn't August. [Updated and bumped.] 28 Comments (0 topical, 28 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
The neighborhood is primarily African immigrants and the descendants of same, many Christians and some animists among them. The largest issue here is lack of integration into the society, race, lack of opportunity and over 50% unemployment among the youth in this community. Large numbers of angry, idle, disaffected youth, with little or no stake in a society is not exactly a recipe for a stable community.
If a similar incident were to happen in an inner city in America, what do you think the result would be?
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
One why imagine ? Why don't you make your point with actual incidents, instead of trying to let a nebulous implication be the substance of your position ?
Two why not flesh out your argument by finding clades in the US with similar characteristics ? Hmmm better than 40% unemployment and little integration with the culture (Limousine liberals come to mind as a starting point)
Sorry I can't make the multilayered point in as wry a manner as the good Mr. Lane.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Why don't you make your point with actual incidents
Following is a partial list of riots in the US sparked by perceived or actual police injustice in poor, minority neighborhoods:
the Benton Harbor Riot of 2003
the 2001 Cincinnati Riots
the 1996 St. Petersburg, FL Riot
the 1992 Los Angeles Riots
Go back a little further and there are plenty more.
Two why not flesh out your argument by finding clades in the US with similar characteristics ?
Are you honestly unaware of poor, minority neighborhoods with high youth unemployment in the US? Go to any major metropolitan area and visit the projects. Paris has a larger problem in this respect, but it is of much the same character.
Are you honestly unaware of poor, minority neighborhoods with high youth unemployment in the US? Go to any major metropolitan area and visit the projects. Paris has a larger problem in this respect, but it is of much the same character.
You broadcast your prejudices and hatreds like clear channel does advertising. I point out that you haven't made your case, rather you assumed it and expected people to agree with you. I point this out, and your response is a snide implication that I am ignorant, dishonest or both.
But lets go at it again.
Are you trying to say that minority violence here is on the level of france ?
Are you trying to say we have groups as unassimilated as the north african youth of paris ?
Are you saying that our unemployment levels are comparable ? Hint they aren't.
Or are you just trying to say that racism and oppressed minorities elsewhere does not detract from the U.S.'s all time champion status in your eyes. (And yes that is me projecting my read of you)
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
First, your original response appeared snide to me. If that was not your intent, apologies for returning the perceived attitude. That being said, what prejudices and hatreds do you feel I am broadcasting?
The larger point of my post you have completely ignored. The riot was being portrayed as an example of Islamist violence. That is not the nature of this particular incident. Now on to your questions.
Are you trying to say that minority violence here is on the level of france ?
Given that I said, "Paris has a larger problem in this respect, but it is of much the same character." The obvious answer is no.
Are you trying to say we have groups as unassimilated as the north african youth of paris ?
We do have large groups that are poorly assimilated in America. As to degree of that lack of assimilation, that is exceedingly difficult to measure so I can't say one way or the other with certainty. The particulars of who is unassimilated and the nature of that lack of assimilation are different.
Are you saying that our unemployment levels are comparable ?
Again you misinterpret what was said. What was said is that the neighborhood in question has exceptionally high youth unemployment along with other factors that contributed to unrest.
I later pointed to analogous neighborhoods in the US that responded to analogous events in similar ways. That is not to say that they are exactly the same, but to point out that this is not an isolated incident and has little if anything to do with religion.
Or are you just trying to say that racism and oppressed minorities elsewhere does not detract from the U.S.'s all time champion status in your eyes.
I have no idea where you got this from.
All you have shown is that both France and the U.S. have youth violence. You haven't shown that underlying causes are the same, or that Islamist influences aren't contributing to the violence in la belle France.
As to where I got this Or are you just trying to say that racism and oppressed minorities elsewhere does not detract from the U.S.'s all time champion status in your eye from just how should the raising of non comparable incidents in the US be interpreted ? France has a higher level of youth violence than we do and a 5th our population. Do the math thats really something else.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
The implication was made that the violence is religious in nature and thus far the sole piece of evidence presented is that the names of the youth are consistent with them being North African Muslims. The riots have been going on for some time now. I have seen no more evidence than this that the riots have religious overtones?
Re: comparisons to the US
If you want something of similar scale and for analogous reasons in the US you really have to go back to the LA riots and before that the Miami riots of 1980. Certainly we have come a long way from the riots of the 60s and early 70s but that makes the parallels no less apt.
Does anyone really think the reason for the riots was the death of the kids?
Was Rodney King the reason for the LA Riots?
These were the sparks that set off the powder kegs not the root causes. If you are looking for root causes doesn't it make sense to look at the issues in the neighborhoods in question? It seems to me a better approach than merely checking if there names sound like they may be Muslim.
Mostly because the MSM has a Logarithmic and continuously recalibrating threshold for reporting these things.
What you have been referring to as riots in the US, the French consider business as usual. The burning of automobiles and continuous high (by our standards) in the Banllieues is par for the course and goes unremarked. So by our standards France has been a Riot (Though only about as funny as jerry lewis) for quite awhile.
As to causes ? Who knows. Was Martin Luther Kings assassination the cause of that long hot summer ? What you have set forth are what would appear to be a subset of the needed conditions. They are not sufficient in and of themselves.
Lets face it, if unemployment and disaffection by themselves were sufficient the country should have torn itself apart in the 30's and the Carter years.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
If the US had not been a tinderbox of racial tensions his assassination would not have sparked near the level of violence it did. The US in the sixties is another analogous situation.
Sometimes the spark that sets of violence has a religious character and some riots in Paris have had obvious religious elements. I have seen no evidence for that in this case. There is plenty of YouTube video of the riots and no one has found anything in them to indicate a religious element, no people shouting slogans, nothing.
Religious motivation should not be the default position whenever someone has a name that sounds like it might be Muslim.
Or maybe the whole threshold of proof thing escapes you.
French Tv boss admits to censoring riot coverage
France: Censorship and the National Image
Evidence the "Paris Riots" Are Actually the "French Intifada"
Lets turn it around
Theres plenty of video and documentation of the 68 riots
http://www.jofreeman.com/photos/Kingfuneral.html
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/K/htmlK/kingmartin/kingmartin.htm
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/special/mlk/king/timeline.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/4/newsid_2453000/...
But theres nothing in them to indicate poverty or racial tension were a cause, no people shouting slogans, no signs nothing. Guess Race Relations, poverty, and the Good Doctor King's death weren't issues.
You have an opinion. I am not really up to saying whether you are right or wrong.
I can say this, so far you have only presented your opinion. Thats it. You have done nothing to construct an argument or present facts that back up your opinion. Whats more you have been making statements that betray extreme biases and are easily refuted.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
What are the extreme biases that I have demonstrated?
The participation in the riots is multi-ethnic and includes members of multiple religions. This to me is evidence against the riots being religiously motivated.
The conditions in the neighborhood are bad and it has been reported for quite some time how poor these conditions are and how charged these areas are. This to me is evidence in support of conditions being ripe for a riot.
It is my opinion and there is some evidence to support it. It is not sufficient to say that my opinion is definitely correct however I think the evidence in support of my position, that this is not religiously motivated, is stronger than any evidence presented that it is religiously motivated.
Re: the 68 riots
Everyone knew the context.
Re: the 68 riots
Everyone knew the context.
I am sure everyone in France knows the context of todays Riots.
As to your biases, You raised religion as the cause of the riots. Everyone else has seen it as a failure to assimilate immigrant ethnic groups.
Methinks thou dost protest too much.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
are smaller than you seem to think.
If you look back to my original comment you will see that the first reason I listed as a causative factor in the riots was lack of integration into the society. I see the racial tensions (also heavily reported on) and rampant youth unemployment as contributing factors. Do your disagree with this?
You raised religion as the cause of the riots. Everyone else has seen it as a failure to assimilate immigrant ethnic groups.
My comment was in response to this excerpt of the above post.
The length of time it takes to determine the names of the two teenagers whose death sparked these riots is itself enough to spark suspicion, and sure enough: the names were Moushin Souhhali and Larami (the NYT also has the first names). For those playing at home, the names are consistent with North African Muslim naming practices... which you already knew
That portion of the post indicated to me that religion was being cited as a primary causative factor in the rioting. That seemed obvious to me. Looking back, perhaps I should have been more explicit as to what I was referencing.
...to make that unwarranted decision you will of course retract your statement.
Do it in your next post, please. Keep it below ten words.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
We're all full up on disingenuous today, thanks. Be sure to send us a link to whatever They Banned Me! ME! post you write in response.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
The religious aspect is clearly the most important thing from your perspective, so you're assuming that it is for everybody else - including me.
Grow up, Sparky. And don't be so contemptuous (unjustifiably) of the opinions of the other people on this board from now on. Neither of the two previous sentences is a suggestion.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Please let me know what language I used that you feel matches this characterization either here or by e-mail. I have endeavored to follow all posted site policies and to remain polite until someone is impolite to me.
The religious aspect is not the most important to me unless it is important to the issue. In this case I don't see religion as being an issue, certainly not a primary issue. According to the reports I have read the rioters of of several ethnicities and include Christians, Muslims, and Animists. What I objected to is the apparent default position that this event is religious in nature. Your comment about the kids names looked to me as though that was your position. Apologies if this was not your intent. Any clarification you could offer on this point would be appreciated.
You were given clear instructions, and we're not here to hold your hand.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
...citing the Benton Harbor riots in comparison to the 2005 French riots does little more than confirm that what Sarkozy said about the rioters then was spot on. This coming from somebody who lives not that far from Benton Harbor.
Of those US riots, the closest comparison would be the 1992 LA riots in scope (substantial), but the Cincinnati riots in terms of substance (little, if any).
"No matter how much lipstick you put on the taxation pig, it's still a pig... and it's currently snout-down in your wallet." - Michael Fisk
We have not had riots here really comparable to what's happening in France. I agree the closest (in a while) is the 1992 LA riots as far as scope.
I disagree regarding the substance argument. The French rioters have legitimate grievance.
1) The society says "come on in, we welcome everyone", when in fact they do not.
2) The official policy places the immigrants into concrete housing (like the projects - yeah, that worked great), where even the bed's are concrete.
3) The society says that they want to be "multicultural" when in fact they don't. The whole multi-culti thing came out of gramscian marxist thought, and was designed to reduce the bonds between neighbors so that they wouldn't challenge central state power.
4) The state runs a heavy welfare system that limits social mobility through both the public and private sectors.
That's France. Now, I do agree that political Islam is a problem. And I do agree that immigrants should assimilate. But it's not like this outcome wasn't predictable, and was in fact engineered by the french state zeitgeist.
Sleep in the bed you made. The french state must assert power to quell this lawlessness. That doesn't mean there isn't legitimate grievance.
Yes, they have problems with the state planners, but I don't see where the animus ends up being directed against the police officers, except for the fact that two hoodlums did something stupid running from the law and got themselves killed. That's what sparked the 2005 riots.
But yes, most European countries have immigration completely bass-ackwards, if you ask me. We get upset about immigrants here not assimilating... there it's official state policy. In comparison, America is a nation of open arms, and Western Europe is the land of the middle finger.
"No matter how much lipstick you put on the taxation pig, it's still a pig... and it's currently snout-down in your wallet." - Michael Fisk
"a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
those (such as the Justice Bros.) who excuse lack of education, bad behavior and complete lack of familial responsibility among young minority males while blaming everyone else for them, rather than working seriously to fix the problem. The race-baiting industry (which runs the Democrat party) keeps this situation the way it is because it serves them to.
The cause in European cities is runaway immigration of Islamofascists who refuse to assimilate (Europe doesn't want them to anyway).
Furthermore, black females in the U.S. may be close to exceeding white females in their gains in education and employment status. Muslim females in Europe? Chattel and worse -- pretty much the status black females had in this country 150 years ago.
Don't conflate the problem in the French suburbs with the problem in American inner cities. The only thing they have in common is young men.
You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.
It was just about this time of year, maybe a couple of weeks earlier. The weather is nasty in northern France in late November. That ought to keep a lid on things.
And in 2005, Sarko was roundly criticized for the... well, insensitive things he had to say about the rioters. It'll be very interesting to see what he says now.
Thanks for pointing out the story, Moe. As you say, the MSM sure won't report it.