Redstate

To educate yourself on the production of Meth, Zuiko.

As has already been mentioned, the bulk of Meth producers get their supplies wholesale because they like to make lots of product to make lots of money and wholesale is the cheapest way to get the materials. Even druggies, apparently, can do basic math.
Furthermore, making Meth is a somewhat dangerous and involved process. Anyone who's going to put the effort into that is going to have no problem putting the effort into getting a fake ID.

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

I've had the dubious honor of representing two meth defendants. Among the ingredients, ahem, taken into protective custody by those humorless guys in brown, one would find such things as fish fryers, pool shock, red chemicals-that-are-apparently-war-crimes-when-white, and, oh yeah, one hundred boxes of Dollar General decongestant. Or CVS. Or Rite-Aid.

Radley has an axe to grind. I don't; I agree that the law at issue is stupid, but I have rational reasons divorced from a larger policy fight.

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Even those who learn from history are surrounded by those doomed to repeat it.

Seems I'm mistaken.

Unfortunately, this law has just made it harder for me to get the meds I need (nothing without pseudofed has Ever worked on my sinuses), and the meth labs in PA continue to iincrease in number...
So I really see no effect and doubt I will.

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

There will be meth labs.

The farmers have everything they need on hand, including isolation, to work the stuff up. The truck drivers are a frighteningly determined consumer group.

You think you got it bad? Check out Iowa some time. Frightening as heck.

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Even those who learn from history are surrounded by those doomed to repeat it.

The Academy is open.

Two things.

One, crankheads will still do stupid things near pipelines, regardless of legalization. It's like potheads being convinced that you have to be high to (really experience the world/really understand movies/really feel alive/whatever); comes with the nature of the beast.

Two, you could, I think, sell me on the idea of legalizing coke, pot, and a bunch of other garbage, with the right argument, which I haven't seen yet, though I've seen a few come close. Smack, meth, acid, and PCP, however, I'll go to the wall to stop. My "you have the right to swing your fist so long as it connects with no one else's nose" impulse ends at that garbage -- too many negative externalities, too much likelihood of smacked noses, and frankly, too much social damage.

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Even those who learn from history are surrounded by those doomed to repeat it.

The Academy is open.

How many US-based manufacturers buy their precursor's wholesale? Anything approaching 100%? Do you have any stats that indicate that?

Wholesale would be the easiest course of action, sure, if you want to have DHS agents executing warrants on your house. The advantage of buying the precursors at stores is not the cost. It's not the convenience. It's the low risk and untracability. There have been many reports of police finding big stashes of cold medicine in vehicles and the like. Now maybe they just had really bad colds, just like those middle eastern guys with the hundreds of disposable cell phones from dozens of stores in their car might just have really needed to make a phone call.

I addressed the bit about fake IDs. A fake ID doesn't get you much, since you can only buy about 4 boxes a month on an ID, whether it is fake or real. Even if you use it at multiple places to get your 4 box limit, that makes it considerably harder to buy and increases your chances of getting busted by a suspicious pharmacist astronomically. Before it was a risk free endeavor. Now it has been made much riskier. It also gives the police more tools to go after the offenders, because now they are guilty of several additional (easily proven) crimes in addition to the production of meth, which may or may not be provable.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

Not previously presented.
However, in the case of states that use paper logs rather than upload the info to a database, 4 boxes at this store, 4 boxes at that store, etc, etc, etc...
Address that one and Maybe we have a somewhat effective law.

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

There are lots of states that have regulated the sale of pseudoephedrine, including Pennsylvania, where I have a friend who suffers from allergies, and needs to sign the log book when buying Sudafed.

I've checked the molecular formulas of pseudoephedrine and methamphetamine in an online chemical database. They are identical, except that pseudoephedrine has one extra oxygen atom, so it must be a very simple procedure to make methamphetamine from pseudoephedrine.

While Dianne Feinstein has done lots of things that rub this conservative the wrong way, I don't think we should dump on her for this. She's only trying to write a Federal law to do what many states already have done.

The bad news: Conservatism is hard to sell. The good news is that it works.

Trust me, it sounds weird but it really does work for a cold.

In a cup of hot tea put a tablespoon or so of apple cider vinegar and honey to taste. Add a splash of cranberry juice. It does not taste as bad as it sounds, and the vinegar makes your throat too acidic for the germs to replicate - it will keep it from going into your chest.

It's best to use it when you first feel the tingling in your sinuses, but even if you do it later, it will make you feel better.

Just call me Dr. Mom

If you take it soon enough and regularly enough. The oral stuff has a pretty awful texture I can't stand, but the stuff you stuff up your nose isn't bad. Zicam is the biggest brand name but a lot of people make the stuff now. Well worth the cost IMO.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

But everyone's body chemistry is different. The "witches brew" works for I'd say 4 out of 5 people I force it on at work! Oh, yeah, they love me... well, they try really hard not to cough or sneeze around me :-)

The max recommended Aspirin dosage per day burns up your entire blood into an acid strong enough to kill the vast majority of viruses and bacteria.
Touch it off with enough Vita-C to pee yellow regardless of fluid intake and you wash everything out within a day or two.
Pretty effective on anything Except a sinus infection...

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

The Academy is open.

I am definitely going to start taking a multivitamin every day, well every day as soon as I get in the habit of taking it every day, heh. Which reminds me, I need to take today's right now.

Anyway, the last time I got sick twice rapid fire like this, was also the last time I was spending more than a slight, occasional amount of time with a (now) 5-year old nephew, heh. Gee... where could all these germs be coming from?

Run like Reagan!

Once you start making meth what concern do you have over breaking laws?

This is precisely why the War on Some Drugs is doomed to failure.

For those of you not opposed to it: how much more are you willing to give up for something that doesn't work?

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Internet member since 1987
Member of the Surreality-Based Community

Legalize it, regulate it, and work to eliminate the demand for it. Confine drug use to specified places and manners, thus controlling health risks while single-handedly eliminating narco-crime. You also get to catalog and monitor all your drug addicts/users and by bringing your problems to light you can better solve them.

Legalizing drugs also means that you can grow/produce them locally. This in turns dries up funding for narco-terrorists in South America, and creates more prison space in which to house child molesters for life, and also cease paroles to free up further space. All we give up is a moral principle that drugs are bad, which in my mind is not a principle, given that drugs are often good (see: morphine) when administered properly. We also admit some failure, and also, most painfully, permit meth-mouths to indulge to their heart's content in some government facility. Eww. But on the plus side, once you have them you can fix them, for lack of better term.

I'm a pragmatist, as you can tell, and occasionally I have to make people think I'm a crazy troll. But for what we give up we gain a whole lot.

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Alan Greenspan

In a facility that will protect other people from them...

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

you will find it a hard sell in these here woods.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

At least not a hard sell to me. Alcahol was a serious criminal problem during prohibition and spawned a rash of other problems that we are still dealing with. Prohibition didn't do much to reduce alcahol use.

I've seen what drug abuse can do to people up close (family members) so I'm not a big proponent of drug use. But I do see the merits of legalizing and regulating drug use.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

I have been thoroughly skewered here for my view that the "war on Drugs" is a horrible failure. I too, have family members with addictions, curiously none of their problems really came from the drug use so much as it came from the illegality.

My own experience is that few people bother to really educate themselves on all the pros and cons of this issue yet have no problem with a very strong but uninformed opinion.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

My own experience is that few people bother to really educate themselves on all the pros and cons of this issue yet have no problem with a very strong but uninformed opinion.

Leave that kind of thing to the lefties. It is possible to have a disagreement about this (or any other issue) without one side being stupid or misinformed.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

ask the typical "drug warrior" how many books on the subject have they read? Or if they have ever even read one book that doesn't back up their own opinion.

Sorry if you don't like it but that is indeed my experience.
On this one subject my experience is that many on the right become just as obtuse and ignorant as any person from the left.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

That's not exactly conducive to friendly debate, now is it? Seems to me that's exactly the kind of stuff they do at places like dKos (except with F bombs thrown in for good measure). There's no need to attack the intelligence or education of those who don't agree with you simply because they don't agree with you. That is just an easy cop-out.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

I am not trying to attack anyone's intellegence or education. heaven knows I freely admit that most of the posters here are smarter than me. But on this ONE SUBJECT, many, many, on the right are guilty of not bothering to do the work on the subject.

In fact they are guilty of forming their opinions prior to the facts.

I am not the only one who will tell you this, ask John O'Sullivan, or William F. Buckley.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

Then TAX it! :-)

I like your idea about the drug houses... bet that would solve the homeless problem, too. Many drug addicts are simply self medicating. That's kinda what we used to do with them... until the do-gooders thought it was bad to lock up people who (although unable to care for themselves)were not a danger to society.

My boys both have allergies so we stock up on children's sudafed and my wife and I have found that Target has the best process. Instead of filling out a form or signing anything, you just swipe your driver's license that captures the info on the bar code on the back of the card. Easy and quick. And, no...I do not work for Target. :-)

It is at the pharmacy counter, but it is still OTC. You just have to ask for it, show ID, sign the log and pay for it. I've done it, since we've had the same requirements in this state for a few years already. Life goes on.

The ban could've probably been made more narrow, such as only affecting this active ingredient when used in certain kinds of pills, while leaving other formats like liquid tabs or soft gels alone. I believe they need a particular type of pill to efficiently make use of the ingredient in the lab.

The biggest risk to the end user is that the drug companies will simply reformulate all their products (which has already largely been done) and make this all moot. Most people will buy whatever is on the shelf, regardless of what the active ingredient is. At some point it probably isn't going to be worth producing the pseudoephedrine-based formulas at all.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

We used to have the OTC thing @ the pharmacy like what this law is, but then it wasn't enough (we have the worst meth problem in the nation), now you DO need a prescription in this state...

Two thirds of the world is covered by water, the other third is covered by Champ Bailey

Taking the Pseudofed out of their cold and flu meds makes people buy it less because it doesn't work anymore.

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

That Feinstein devoted herself to a decade-long effort to codify this standard and other anti-meth measures into law - as pretty much anyone who's paid attention to this issue knows - as part of her broader work in multiple bills over the years, including multiple cosponsors and measures introduced when Jim Talent wasn't even in the Senate... she's the clear origin of this specific concept at the federal level. And she's proud of it.

.

It is oh so common for members of the minority party to be the lead named sponsor on any piece of legislation, just like Feingold-McCain.

Talent may be first on the bill, shame on him for sponsoring it, but Feinstein has been after this for much longer than Talent has been in the Senate.

She would have been a flapper floozy in a speakeasy at night, and a womans temperance leader only in the daytime.

Hell, she might even have been one of Scarface Al's molls.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

My Great Grandfather was one of his look-alike, give me an alibi employees and might have ended up sleeping with her at some point if she had been.
Talk about giving me nightmares...

"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal comfort... has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill

Why inconvenience the whole country just for the sake of a few meth-heads?

Because of crime, and not the crime of doing meth. ID theft, B&E and a host of other problems come from meth users, that won't go away with making the drug legal (I am ambivalent at best about the legalization of marijuana) or easy to obtain the precursor for manufacturing. And it's not a real inconvenience compared to having to obtain a prescription like now in Oregon.

Two thirds of the world is covered by water, the other third is covered by Champ Bailey

Re: Because of crime, and not the crime of doing meth. ID theft, B&E and a host of other problems come from meth users, that won't go away with making the drug legal

I am not advocating making the drug legal. I am advocating allowing the 98% of us who are not druggies to purchase a relatively safe and effective medication for appropriate use without undue and unnecessary hassles. I'm even OK with limiting the quantity anyone can buy at anyone time (two packages maybe?)
But it is also true that some people are determined to go to perdition and while you can and ought offer them help you cannot force them to help themselves, and in the end all you can do is get out of their way and let them walk right down into their own destruction. (Disclaimer, or maybe claimer: back in the early 80s my half-brother had a coke habit and died a suicide as a result. I know what I am talking about here. Some people just can't be helped and you shouldn't derange your life and everyone else's trying to force it.)

I know you aren't advocating legalizing meth, I am just pointing out that there are other factors that come into play when fighting meth manufacturing. We're not talking about the junkie buying cold medicine to make their own stuff at home. This is to stop the dealers/makers of the drug.

Two thirds of the world is covered by water, the other third is covered by Champ Bailey