Redstate

is rely on other peoples judgement... I know it is not a wonderful thing but sometimes we have to just give up our perceptions and either agree or disagree (okay, that sounded a bit too leftist, didn't it?). Kind of joking here, but really, all of this propaganda is either believed or we dig further. It is actually a wonder that any MSM outfit takes the time to ferret out the truth...so watch it and wonder what went wrong...heh.

Sooo. I aslute any who would search for truth! Viva la Stossel!

Formally known as Deagle... "Golf is a way of life..."

Yup. And so will every other system be that actually tries to manage affordably -- for them -- the chronically ill, the elderly, and the weakest and newest of humans, all the while pushing them long past when the Grim Reaper should have tested out Scythe 2.0.

The question, as we're not going to expose premature infants, poison AIDS sufferers, and turn everyone over 60 into protein paste, is not whether the system will become a suck-spiral of resources, manpower, and just good-old-fashioned money that could be (some would say) better used elsewhere, but rather how the suck-spiral works, and how much collateral damage it does to the rest of our economy and world.

-----------
We are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere, rejoice!

just better than the rest. It seems that the socialist ideal of everybody having everything just won't go away. Great ideal but impossible to implement (not that stops the crazies)...

Formally known as Deagle... "Golf is a way of life..."

really? better than the rest? millions, like myself, pay high premiums and deductibles to our insurance companies and they to continue to deny our claims. we know how many americans cannot afford health insurance. we know how many americans die every year because their claims are denied or they cannot afford their medical bills. how is this better than the rest? seriously. how is this possibly better than the rest?

i am CRAZY for wanting more? i am CRAZY because i believe we deserve more? i am CRAZY because i cry myself to sleep some nights because i can't afford my medical bills and my BCST insurance premiums?

it makes me very sad to know there are people in this world who would find me CRAZY while thousands (including my sister who sells insurance) are profiting at my expense.

So all your wailing and moaning, while pity-inspiring, knowing that you're crying yourself to sleep, is not really that much of an argument.

Now wipe your eyes.

What we care about is results. Which is why we dismiss Moorons like you who pine for Cuba's healthcare system. Or even Canada ... which has thousands of its citizens coming to the United States for treatment even though it is FREEEE!!! in Canada. That everyone gets equally bad healthcare does not make Cuba's system any better than that of the United States.

Examine all the other systems of healthcare. Which one delivers the highest quality of care? Which one has the highest number of doctors per capita? The latest medical equipment? Drugs? Training? Innovation (in drugs and treatment)? Which one delivers it fastest?

Answer these questions and then maybe when you cry yourself to sleep tonight, hating your sister, no one would think you're "CRAZY."

Let me be clear here. Things can definitely be improved. But to take it in the direction that Moorons like you want the United States to go is probably one of the worst things one can do. But then you probably won't live to regret it because while it might cost you nothing to see a doctor, it would be months before you see one. By then ...

George W. Bush: He's A Folder ... Not A Fighter.

of this.

CRAZY!!!! ? the jury is out.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling

STUPID? Probably.

1. I suspect no one here - including your sister who's probably not here - cares one way or the other about you crying yourself to sleep because you can't afford anything.

2. You don't DESERVE anything. In this country, you earn it.

3. I don't suppose you'd happen to have a link to support your stupid, whiney little claims that Americans are dying because of denied claims or the size of their medical bills. Please provide a statistical reference, not a story of one individual. And, while you're at it, make sure the statistics include a comparison of people who live in Canada or England who die while waiting for care.

4. Go to WalMart and buy a new keyboard, one with a SHIFT key.

5. If you happen to talk to your sister, tell here there's a whole on-line community that really feels bad for her having to put up with your whiney crap.
____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

____
CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

The biggest way we could improve things would be to make it so that you can get access to the non-gold plated versions of care, because they're just so expensive. Reducing subsidies and improving competition would do that.

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Reality: Thompson/Romney Dream: Santorum/Watts.

Gold plated care is the result of an overly cautious risk mitigation strategy. The Doctors are practicing defensive medicine. They are not necessarily defending your health and quality of life as much as they are defending against certain outcomes that would allow a real John Edwards of a trial lawyer to turn their practice into an ATM.

James Hansen - Scott THomas Beauchamp with a PhD.

As things stand there's no price competition, so even if there were choices, a doctor getting money from the government or from the HMO is going to go gold-plated whenever possible, isn't he?

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Reality: Thompson/Romney Dream: Santorum/Watts.

If insurance is expensive, then subsidizing it won't help. If we want to cut taxes let's cut taxes on EVERYONE and be done with it.

Let's leave the targetted tax cuts to the Democrats.

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Reality: Thompson/Romney Dream: Santorum/Watts.

1. Increase the availability of OTC products. If the product is not a narcotic, steroid, or antibiotic the product should be OTC legal. This will significantly lower the costs of many medications.

2. Tort Reform: damage caps and a loser pays system will lower health care costs be a few percentage points.

3. Remove legal restrictions that impede the creation of "Docboxes," such as Wall-Mart's Independent in Store Clinics and Walgreen's Convenient Care Clinics. These clinics provide cheap diagnosis and treatment of common medical problems.

4. Allow individuals to purchase what ever type of medical insurance that they want. Currently many states require consumers of health insurance to purchase many additional products under their health insurance plans (mental
health coverage, birth control coverage, etc.) these requirements significantly increase the costs of those plans.

5. Expand the availability of HSAs.

6. Use "Physician Assistants and Nurse Practitioners...as primary care providers."

7. Increase transparency of medical prices

...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...

---Thomas Paine---

Good comment, Herodotus, and very good ideas. Now, if only we could find someone to implement them.....

I like Stossel a lot. He truly does believe in the journalist's code of searching for the truth.

Cough! Cough! Ahem. No, he doesn't. I had no opinion of him, nor was I familiar with his reporting, until he wrote a piece in which he said this about the Bush tax cuts: "Yes, the tax cuts stimulated the economy and increased tax revenues", something that VERY few economists would agree with, leaving me to conclude that Stossel made that important statement without consulting an economist or even anyone familiar with what the consensus of economists is -- not exactly my idea of a journalist "searching for the truth". One economist's (Mark Thoma's) comment on Stossel's claim http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/05/john%5fstossel%... (and I think Thoma makes a sweeping statement about tax cuts that he really means to apply only to tax rates in the neighborhood of current rates or recent history, not to ALL tax cuts; No one disputes the implication of the Laffer Curve that at a high enough starting point, rate reductions can increase revenues)

unlike you, I have followed him on many stories, so frankly, cherry picking one thing you didn't like doesn't make you much of an expert.

"The nine most dangerous words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help'"

Ronald Reagan

www.proprietornation.blogspot.com

Fair point. Perhaps he has a stellar career otherwise. But on the other hand, if the only thing you knew about some reporter or columnist is that he expressed some strong opinion on a matter and made some important assertion of fact that ran contrary to what almost all the experts were saying (indicating that he probably hadn't bothered to check with any, nor researched in any other way what they were saying) -- and had the nerve to perpetuate that myth in a column called "The Tax Cut Myth" and who wrote a book about commonly-held myths driven by the media -- wouldn't you take issue with someone's praise of him as some embodiment of "the journalist's code of searching for the truth"?

I am glad, though, that Stossel exposed, for all the world to see, the fact that pro wrestling is...(drumroll)...fake.

Do you know exactly where the point of equilibrium is on the Laffer curve? Do you think overall taxation rates in the USA are at a point which is most conducive of economic growth?
Do you think you are both more intelligent and more knowledgeable than Stossel?(I am sure you do)

I don't really have a problem with what you believe on this or any other matter, I guess my big problem is your absolute rigidity in your beliefs, your adherence to dogma, the sneering quality of your replies, and your always having to get in the last word.

Your style really strikes me as that of a gregarious and over-attenuated young person with a bit of narcissism.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

PA-leeeese! A BIT? Ya think? Probably drives a Vette, too!

Hinzy, on another thread I told Moe I would try to resist provocative insults, per his request. And I suggested we all stay away from that crap and just stick to discussing and debating the issues instead of throwing around ridicule. You can choose to do otherwise if you wish, but if you feel any confidence in your ability to debate, you shouldn't feel the need to drop insults like that. And I think it would be considerate to Moe if you and others didn't need to be told every time to get away from the insults and raise the level of discourse. ok?

oh well, I guess I'll just let the navel fuzz build up...
br, getting a little sensitive? You know DH meant that in a good natured way, don't you?

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
www.race42008.com
www.hinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson

I don't know about the "good-natured" assumption. He's been dropping insults like that toward me on thread after thread. Almost never discussing or debating anything, just a line or two of ridicule.

and yes, of course I'm sensitive. That's the way we narcissists are, Cubby. Anything that distracts us from our perpetual self-praise is very upsetting.

Kyle, I'll reluctantly respond to you, but I may not engage in much back-and-forth because I know from experience it will not get anywhere, because I don't want to be tempted to give in to your procative insults, and because I don't want to threadjack.

Here's a recap of the road we've travelled on this subject. For the millionth time (in dialogues with you and threads in which you've been involved): The strong, broad consensus among economists -- including conservative economists, including economists who supported the Bush tax cuts and support their extension, including Bush's own current and former top economists -- that it is very unlikely that the Bush tax cuts have had a positive impact on revenues or that they would if extended. I have cited this consensus and provided numerous quotes and links, and expressed my view that, in light of this consensus, and no reason for these economists to have any bias toward their consensus conclusion, it is common sense to at least consider their conclusion more likely to be correct than the conclusion drawn by people with far, far less expertise and resources for conducting the relevant analysis. The reactions I got from you and several others were (1) to argue that your own anecdotal observations of (conveniently) selected data, which led you to a conclusion that you just coincidentally want to reach, make it clear that all those economists are obviously wrong, and (2) all kinds of ridicule, to which I responded in kind, leading you and some others to apply a double standard and complain about my tone.

To answer your questions, which have no relevance to anything I've ever said:

Do you know exactly where the point of equilibrium is on the Laffer curve?

No. I also don't know the exact revenue-maximizing or profit-maximizing price for a Toyota Camry. But if almost every relevant expert tells me it's far from $50,000, and if they have no reason to be biased, I'm going to think it's at least more likely than not that they are right. Which is a long way of saying, exactly what important point do you think you're making with this question?

Do you think overall taxation rates in the USA are at a point which is most conducive of economic growth?

I don't know. And the point I've made has been regarding the net impact on revenues, not about whether current tax rates are ideal overall. I've said repeatedly that there are legitimate arguments that can be made for tax cuts such as Bush's, but that this myth that they have a positive impact on revenues is not one of them.

Do you think you are both more intelligent and more knowledgeable than Stossel?(I am sure you do)

I don't know.

I guess my big problem is your absolute rigidity in your beliefs, your adherence to dogma, the sneering quality of your replies, and your always having to get in the last word.

Other than perhaps the last one, these charges are baseless or at least unfair (i.e., reflecting a gross double standard). Relative to most people, and probably more so relative to folks on RS, I am not particularly rigid in my beliefs and stuck to "dogma", and the "sneering quality of my replies" is more often than not a response to a provocation of that kind.

Your style really strikes me as that of a gregarious and over-attenuated young person with a bit of narcissism.

Well, I wish I were a young person. The "narcissism" charge is yet again a double standard. I don't see you dropping similar criticism in response to comments of the many, many, many others on RS who show a lot of "attitude" in their comments.

I am the only one willing to tell you what the problem is with your comments. I would only ask that you maybe consider a little humility and consider also that what you are so sure of now might not be what you believe ten years from now.

Just like with AGW, a million experts does not reveal the truth, only a concencuss. I am perfectly willing to believe that our current tax structure is so low that we are very far below equilibrium. HOWEVER, since in my lifetime I have witnessed tax rate cuts go hand in hand with a real big take off in both economic activity and tax revenues (above projections) then I would say the burden of proof is pretty large.

It will take much more than a bunch of graphs and charts to make me believe we are at that point now.

Your problem is not that you disagree with me but that from the VERY BEGINNING you have been dismissive to the point of ridicule of others views. And not just on this subject.

And it is very difficult to try to ask a person like you to be a bit more introspective because you are prickly and defensive.

But I like you, really I do. You always at least have something intelligent to say.

"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle

First, thanks for the compliment.

Re: experts and AGW, I realize that some dispute that there is a consensus among scientists, and others believe that there is a consensus but believe that it is driven by bias among scientists (due to pressure to conform to some politically-correct conventional wisdom to preserve funding; due to a political agenda; etc.). That's why I pointed out that the economists I've cited have no reason to be biased toward the conclusion they reached. In fact, if any bias does exist, it would be toward GREATER revenue feedback from the Bush tax cuts (i.e., in the direction of less negative net impact on revenues or even positive net impact).

I am the only one willing to tell you what the problem is with your comments. I would only ask that you maybe consider a little humility and consider also that what you are so sure of now might not be what you believe ten years from now.

I would HUMBLY ask you to consider that you just may be applying a much, much higher standard to me than to everyone else here on RS in terms of being "dismissive to the point of ridicule" and not expressing sufficient humility.

since in my lifetime I have witnessed tax rate cuts go hand in hand with a real big take off in both economic activity and tax revenues (above projections) then I would say the burden of proof is pretty large.

As for net impact on revenues of the Bush tax cuts, first, remember the Laffer Curve: tax cuts of marginal rates from very high levels can indeed generate higher revenues. For example, my recollection (I could be wrong) is that the Kennedy tax cuts reduced the top income tax rate from 91% (ouch!). Second, revenues above projections are not strong evidence that a tax cut has caused higher revenues than would have been received otherwise. It is difficult to reliably predict GDP growth rates over several years, and many factors other than tax rates affect growth rates. That's why expertise in economics and statistical analysis, along with access to resources such as all the appropriate data and analytical tools, is more conducive to valid conclusions regarding the strength of correlations among tax rates and revenues, and the likelihood of causation, than the anecdotal observations of someone without such expertise and resources.
But I like you, really I do. You always at least have something intelligent to say.

Im your best friend here Brooks

As the guy said to his proctologist, "With friends like you, who needs enemas" ;>

OK, now say something that makes it not too hard for me to let you get in the last word. In the meantime, I'll take four Tylenol PM to mostly knock me out, and maybe then I'll be able to resist.

the Orioles make the playoffs!

This Cub is a Brave.

Did I mention that the 'Cocks gave the Dawgs a Chikin' Lickin'?

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
www.race42008.com
www.hinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson

"The ol' ball coach"

Molon Labe!

Spurrier has a few jabs left for Bulldogs

By CARTER STRICKLAND
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 09/10/07
Athens — The morning after a loss is never pretty.

Fans are quick to turn. Assessments, even the accurate ones, can be cruel. And the piling on usually begins.

Say hello to Steve Spurrier. The coach threw out a few quips and one startlingly honest barb the day after his South Carolina team beat Georgia, 16-12.

"It wasn't like they were some big, powerful team," Spurrier said on his television show Sunday. "They've actually lost five in a row to Eastern Division opponents. Kentucky and Vandy beat 'em last year."

That's right five in a row — Tennessee, Florida, Kentucky, Vanderbilt and South Carolina have now run through Georgia in the past five SEC East games. And Georgia, which has slipped to No. 23 in the Associated Press poll, still has four of those teams this season. Three of the four — Tennessee, Vanderbilt and Florida — are on the road.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/uga/stories/2007/09/09/gafoot_0...

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
www.race42008.com
www.hinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson

yeah, he has it in for Georgia. I remember when he became the Redskins coach. He said we always whipped up on Georgia, nbow we need to make the Cowboys are Georgia.

of course he was wrong on that one, which is fine since I am a die never Cowboys fan :)

Molon Labe!

many typos,

Molon Labe!

You may be a Braves fan, but you'll always be an Ernie Banks wannabbee, Cubby (even with all those MVP trophies on your mantle).

Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
www.race42008.com
www.hinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
"One man with courage makes a majority" - Andrew Jackson

Mike, they misspelled your name!

Do you have to inject your opinions on tax cuts and the economy into every thread? I'm really a little tired of reading it. This thread is about Michael Moore and Health Care not taxes. Could you please stick to the subject.

Excuse me, but read the thread before you criticize. Someone expressed admiration for Stossel due to Stossel's adherence to the "journalists' code of searching for the truth" (paraphrasing), and I pointed out that, in the one piece of journalism I've seen by him, he got key "truth" way wrong, and perpetuated a major myth about tax cuts in a column about "The Tax-cut Myth", which in my view made his commitment to finding the truth at least suspect. Someone else then challenged me on the tax cuts & revenues issue and asked me questions, and I responded, and indicated that I didn't want to go on for much back-and-forth on it partly because doing so would be a threadjack. And I wouldn't have gone on long about it for that reason. OK, got it? And I'm sure you are equally vigilant on threadjacks when others do so -- otherwise you'd be applying a double standard, which I can't imagine would be the case.