Redstate

And still they persist. No matter how many times theres always hucksters that say we are smarter than that and idiots who believe them.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Even the ministers in the UK admit that the NHS is failing their subjects -- the ones who defend the system against any and all criticisms. They're way past where you are -- because years ago, they said the same thing you're saying: "the people are to blame...not the system!"

They were wrong and they know it now. You, apparently, don't.

What's interesting is that people who choose to pay (more) for it can actually have quite convenient access to all the dental care they want. And that's all the indication you need right there.

The NHS, not the UK, has a shortage of dental care. And they're having to move Parliament to try to alleviate it...which they won't be able to do without breaking the bank. And that's precisely the point.

I see yesterday where they awarded the Nobel Price for Economics to some economists who studied when markets work and when they don't. I'd be interested to hear what they'd have to say about this situation (and all the others like it in other socialized healthcare communities).

If healthcare is a situation where markets don't work...what exactly would you call this? Is this what "working" looks like?

Get back home, loretta. Your mommy's waitin' for ya...

Did you ever stop to think that the NHS may be exactly WHY they are notorius for bad teeth, loretta?

Most corporate medical plans only provide limited dental benefits. Thus, dental care in the US operates largely on a cash-for-service basis, with minimum interference from the insurance bureaucracy.

The care in the US is accessible, economical and of high quality.

You are right about the Brits- they love their sweets. It's a hugely successful export for them, too.

into the water pipeline is what put many dentists out of work. The Brits were/are not unclean, they just have had purer water. A mistake? yes, but not as foul a thing as some imagine.

of course the Independent is reporting flouride in the water causes cancer, so the joke about the "big book of British smiles" will continue I guess.

Molon Labe!

Interesting. I wonder why the current dental model isn't looked at for efficiency. It would make sense to ask questions why can't our medical system be more like the dental system.

Ask not what I can do for my country, ask what my country can do for me. Washington Elected Elite

...actually, most Brits defend the NHS to the bitter end.

It's a bizarre study on the psychology of man, frankly. They know their system's irreparably broken. But they cling to it like grim death anyway.

They know their system's irreparably broken.

A very large majority think that the basis of the system - free at the point of use and funded by general taxation - is perfectly fine. It is the details that are broken. All it needs is just a little more money, and everything will be fine. Most are also convinced that it was fine some time in the past. When the summers were longer and hotter and it always snowed at 4pm on Christmas Eve.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

The NHS is a birthright. Well, er, I will say, a "passport right" since they take pretty much anyone but Americans. If you are from an island, you will get NHS.

The thing is, none of the three parties EVER argues against NHS, it is simply a fact of life, something that must be improved by more government or less, I can't remember which, but it will always be there, just like the Tube that shuts down when there are too many leaves falling.

Molon Labe!

The NHS is a birthright. Well, er, I will say, a "passport right" since they take pretty much anyone but Americans.

If you are here, even on vacation, you get the NHS. The only condition is that you can't get treatment for a pre-existing condition - that would be an invitation for everyone to come here as soon as they get sick. Even that is not very well policed.

Quentin Langley
Editor of http://www.quentinlangley.net

International Editor of

Michael Moore's credibility in shreds in a region of Europe is excellent news, thanks for sharing! I've had Moore waved under my nose many times on business in Europe. Especially regarding his anti-gun fiction piece, Bowling for Columbine.

absentee

If you wish to engage in constructive debate, you'd probably be better off not calling anyone who may disagree with you "big scary men", but that's just me.

Deterioration is inevitable, even with preventative care. How we address that deterioration is the core of this argument.

Quick question: Should your insurance premiums go up to cover prostate exams?

Free markets will provide tailored insurance to individuals. Socialized medicine (gov't run) will force coverage for everything on everyone. That's overkill and will drive up costs for all. Those costs will be hidden since they'll take the form of taxes.

On a side note, I'd love to see an itemized tax bill so see where our money is being flushed. Oops, I meant benevolently spent.

Sincerely,

little friendly boy

...is that any critique, no matter how valid, of a single-payer healthcare system or some other form of socialized medicine is tantamount to a defense of the status quo here.

We don't have a free market healthcare system here now. Ever since Medicare/Medicaid and employer-sponsored health insurance exploded onto the scene, our healthcare infrastructure has become far too collectivized.

And, now, most people are in search of this nirvana of "all-the-healthcare-I-need-with-nothing-out-of-pocket". The elusive search for the free lunch carries on.

Obviously the healthcare system we have isn't working. It's suffered from very high inflation for many years. And, now, it's incredibly expensive. There are remedies for that.

But it seems that the dialogue is, instead, centered around various ways to ration care. If you think that's an answer to your problem with your mammogram, then you need to read more of these stories about life in a socialized healthcare society.

Your mammogram will be covered -- you'll just have to wait in line to get it. And, if it gets bad enough (as is the case now with British dental care) you just won't get it at all...although it's still covered, if that makes you feel any better. If you can find a provider to do it, you have a way to pay for it. Good luck.

Nobody's beating up on you, loretta -- just trying to make sure that we keep the discussion centered around reality.

If you need the difference explained to you, you're the poster child for why women should never have been given the vote.
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CongressCritter™: Never have so few felt like they were owed so much by so many for so little.

The point I'm making here is that we pay big out-of-pocket expenses here in addition to astronomical premiums, and I'd venture a guess that they are still getting better care than even an overpriced bottom of the barrel HMO here.

That would be a bad guess loretta. Sure, healthcare is free in nations with socialized medicine ... if you can afford to wait for it.

Can someone explain to me how it is so vastly different to maintain a healthy population than it is to maintain safe roads and infrastructure?

A population is composed of individuals. Individuals have sole ownership and responsibility over their own bodies. Roads are public property. Comprende?

Far from it. We pay more, on a per capita basis, than these countries do for their healthcare. But not nearly as much more as to justify the discrepancies between our system and theirs.

Michael Moore's film has famously touted the differences between how much we spend per capita and how much places like the UK spend. And he's right -- but it only tells half the story.

Those people who pay for healthcare here have a much, much better product that what they offer over there. In fact, it's not even close. And that's why so many insured people in Canada and the UK are paying even more to go outside the system and get private care.

In other words, they're paying full freight for the taxpayer-funded system. But, because they realize how insufficient it is, they're spending more than what they're already spending (ie, getting absolutely nothing in return for their taxes) to jump to the front of the line and get the treatment they need when they need it.

Canada has gone so far as to outlaw this. And it's not hard to understand why. People buying private alternatives put that much more strain on an already overburdened system, take that many more resources away from the public system. Plus, they create a gap between rich-and-poor that the socialists don't like.

What we need to focus on are reforms that lead to healthcare being cheaper here. And we can do that -- and without resorting to rationing.

.

If you're paying both big premiums and big out-of-pocket costs, then you need a new insurer. Because, generally, you trade one for the other.

I'm an employer. We have union and non-union personnel. For the non-union personnel, the total premium for most families is roughly $1000 per month. Of that, only 1/3 is actually shown on the employee's paycheck (although, in truth, they're paying it all). We have $15 co-pays for doctor visits, roughly the same for prescriptions, and $500 individual/$1500 family deductibles...beyond while the plan pays 100%.

Nobody in our plan will ever be saddled with "big out-of-pocket expenses". It would be nearly impossible. They pay as much in premiums over the course of 6 weeks than their entire annual deductible.

Now, again, this is no defense of the status quo of our healthcare system. I think it needs overhaul, too. But if you're planning on making it more affordable by turning towards a single-payer system, think again. Doing that takes us in one of two directions:

1) We just add fuel to the current problem of inflation (ie, we keep the same quality and availability of care, but costs go up to reflect the increased demand on the system and to cover those who aren't paying anything towards their own coverage...the much-vaunted 43 million currently uninsured)

or 2) We ration the supplies of healthcare so as to keep costs down and pay the consequences in other ways.

Most universal healthcare systems are suffering -- and badly -- from #2. They've chosen, out of necessity, to control costs and keep them down as much as possible. That would be a good thing...except that they're doing so by severely restricting budgets. And that's why you hear of these waiting periods, of the unavailability of dental care, of the British beginning to punt on obstetrics in the NHS.

They've chosen shortages and they're starting to realize the consequences of that choice.

Why would we want to follow the same path?

your point of view, there isn't enough Viagra or booze in the World.

In Vino Veritas

of WHINE though.

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

tousled dark or dishwater hair, pursed lips, furrowed brow, no makeup, and shapeless, frumpy clothes. Not enough evidence in the record for a determination on shaved legs and armpits, but my money would go on unshaved.

In Vino Veritas

of Rosie

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

The original discourtesy has been amply reflected back, so everybody may now retreat in good order.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

n/t

I'm reading through your posts. I haven't come across any valid points.

And that has nothing to do with your gender. It has to do with you either being ill-informed or indifferent to the very real problems associated with rationing something like healthcare.

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Let's nominate the Nash Equilibrium for President.

With their own extinction.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

your trap and respond to MAK's reply to your whining?

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

horny enough to waste my time with bad-tempered Lefty women. Most are ugly. Even the few pretty ones have such bad attitudes that nobody would want to be near them except gay men who can do bitchy just as well or one of the Lefty Castrati that they've created. And, if you'll look, the RedStates have a much higher birth rate; there's a reason.

In Vino Veritas

your side has the majority of effiminate men, and well, with abortion, let's just say you are leading there too.

Molon Labe!

Or did you just make that up? Anyway, the Vagitarians will be happy to have you; they have first dibs on bitter, unattractive women.

In Vino Veritas

or people that hate Republican men who marrie there mother make a practice of going to Republican websites and berating them.

Molon Labe!

I really wish I could say that I made it up, but I didn't.
I watched my mother give up her entire life supporting her children because my father wouldn't.
My husband and I make a more than comfortable living, so we can afford the high premiums and extra expenses associated with private medical and dental health--but I have not forgotten what it's like to have less, and find it hard to understand why those who say they are the moral compass and real Christians can have so little compassion.

And take everything you say at face value it still doesn't work out.

You say you had a bad childhood, didn't have proper healthcare. (lets not do the economic analysis about the relative costs in prior decades). Now that you're prosperous, your feeling a burst of compassion.

Funny but your first response when reading about a system thats forcing people to acts of desperation you proclaim you want it here.

Your compassion seems to be focused only on telling others what to do.

Finally as has been pointed out before High premiums don't go along with high extra expenses. Unless idiocy is involved in purchasing the insurance.

Dental is so reasonable as a matter of fact I just carry a discount plan.

In short you seem to be a liar.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

If you'll read my post, I'm saying nothing about having a "bad childhood"--my regret is for my mother, who worked several jobs and never had any kind of life for herself.
Oh, and I'm not lying--we pay something like $1000 a month for a PPO plan and I am currently fighting Blue Cross for reimbursement for a mammogram I had last year.
And I am happy for you, in that you have apparently not had any major dental work done lately--as you'd see that the best you'll get is probably 50 percent coverage.
This is no sudden burst of compassion--I just know that the world does not revolve around ME ME ME.

It seems the longer this conversation goes on the more inventive your justifications become.
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No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself, and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be true.

Nathaniel Hawthorne

$1000/mth. will buy you a really good 80/20 plan with a $500-$1000 stop loss in most states. It may have PPOs with low/no deductible, but will cover non-PPO within the UCR. So, if your insurance is as described, you need to shop better or move, since only the four or five Bluest states have higher prices. For example, I live in a very high cost but not Blue state, and my H&W is only about $1100 with dental, visual, and audio on an 80/20 with a $500 stop loss. BTW, it does have annual mammogram coverage, PSA coverage, etc. So, you need to shop, learn more about your plan, or stop spouting TalkingPoints.

In Vino Veritas

ugly Democratic male.

Molon Labe!

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

HTML Help Central for Red Staters
Let's nominate the Nash Equilibrium for President.

______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

with rings in his eyebrows, how would your childhood have been any better?

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men."

This whole episode has been highly entertaining. Aside from the obvious logical errors with regard to association (perhaps it isn't Christian Republicanism that made him so mean, maybe it was simply being male. Or was he white? Maybe it's all white men? Or was he six feet tall or more? Counsel women away from the tall ones!) the very notion that some crusading woman is here out of resentment over the lost youth of her mother is just too adorable.

Only a leftie would expect that kind of emotional appeal to work.

And dear me, threatening to pull sex off the table??! Hilarious! The leftie suppositions abound. 1) We're all hard up. 2) We would be influenced at threats to extra- or pre-marital promiscuity (with leftchicks mind you) 3) We would try to convince you were weren't big and scary just because you say it

Oh, there is so, so much material.

Hilarious! I tell you, and I mean this, you should absolutely start your own "My Dad was a deadbeat drunk Christian Republican and therefore I won't have sex with you so nyah" blog. That would be CLASSIC!

absentee

Isn't it just?

OK, sometimes I overdo the bad puns.

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men."

So I take it I'm the shepherd?

I say we leave her be...it's not worth it...really

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

I don't care who started it, at this point: I just want it dropped.

[keitel]
So, pretty please, with sugar on top. OK?
[/keitel]

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

what a great scene!!!!

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

I respect you, I just don't like being ordered around lol

I will clean the car.

Molon Labe!

...for the Mr. Wolf character.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

I thought he did Jules perfectly.

Then he goes to visit Chavez...go figure

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

let's look at this thread in a little detail, shall we? The diary notes the abject failure of "guaranteed" free coverage, to, well, actually cover people's care. It is pointed out that this is a significant failure. Your response is to say that socialized medicine is not to blame, without any apparent rational basis for saying so. In posts #1, #6, #20, #23 and #25 (among others), your assertions are addressed, directly, and on the merits, and are supported with reason and logic. Your response? "sure, big scary men, jump all over me, my health insurance is expensive and bad, so socialized medicine is good." Without any logic or reason. Is it any wonder that after you fail to address the detailed logic and reason outlined above, that people begin to mock you?

The only effort you have made to provide anything resembling logic or reason or address the substantive points raised by this entire diary is where you said "I'd venture a guess" that the recipients of socialized medicine get "better" care. This, in a diary where it is shown that they aren't getting ANY care. You then lament that everyone thinks you shouldn't be allowed to vote. I think most of us took it as some very good snark from one of our best snarkers - after reading all your posts, maybe I should re-examine it as truthful insight.

The balance of your comments center on compassion, or fright, or whatever other feeling you are experiencing at the time. This is the basic difference between conservatives and liberals. You care only about how YOU feel. Socialized medicine, even if it doesn't work, makes you feel better. Never mind that it makes the problem worse, and people can't get the care they need, when they need it. Hey, you feel better, and that's important. The conservative wants to enable people to get their own care, not fill them with meaningless platitudes that keep them dependent on someone else, ie, the conservative wants to actually help them. So in the end, actually Loretta, contrary to your statement, for you, it really is all about you...

I have no reason to make things up--and if I did, wouldn't it behoove me to be much more fantastic with the story?
I have Blue Cross, pay $1000 a month and have dense breast tissue--regular and diagnostic mammograms do not "read" the tissue...so my doctor ordered an MRI. I paid cash for the procedure after fighting them for payment for 6 months, rather than have it sent to collections.
Now I'm told that I must provide proof that at least 4 immediate relatives died from breast cancer. WTF?

and is more believable. MRI's are VERY expensive compared to a normal mamogram. Does Blue Cross pay for the diagnostic mamogram?

You're lucky you're not in a socialized medicine country. You wouldn't have to worry about paying for the MRI because you just wouldn't have been allowed to get one. The way they keep costs under control is by limiting access....

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Like I said, diagnostics don't do the trick--although they would be covered. If I lived in a country with socialized medicine, I would have to absorb the expense, obviously. But then, it'd be a little easier to do so without the high premium, yes?

or at least somebody would. The only things that would change is how the premium got paid and who pays it, how much the plan really costs and pays, and how long before the controlled market began to limit availability.

In Vino Veritas

Really ? You think the medicine fairy just provides healthcare in socialist countries ?

You wouldn't notice the premium because it would have been taxed out of you before you ever got to see it. It would have been a bigger premium as well.

Try again. Oh pay less has a sale on birkenstocks.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

You don't have to pay for something you can't get.

There are MANY procedures that just aren't available in countries with socialized medicine. There just aren't enough MRI machines available in those countries to allow the precious time to be wasted on a diagnostic breast exam. The people who have SERIOUS known problems are wait listed. Why would they waste the time just for a regular screening?

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

from wouldn't pay for a mammogram to wouldn't pay for an MRI. Got anymore changes in the narrative coming along? I don't blame the HI for questioning it and requiring verification of medical necessity; that's how you control HI costs. That's also why you should never involve government in plan design and coverage, since all it takes is a few people like you whining and MRI coverage becomes statutorily mandatory forcing HI costs ever higher. After all, why would one settle for an old-fashioned mammogram when they can get one of those new-fangled MRIs. And of course, if the Doc relied on a mammogram and you got breast cancer, the lawyers would line up to sue for malpractice since he didn't order an MRI.

In Vino Veritas

Again, just provide a link to your plan documents that show that Blue Cross will pay full cost for the Viagra.

I don't believe they exist.....

As I said, I think you're like EVERY other Democratic activist I've EVER had contact with. You're willing to tell any lie to get your political point no matter how much it harms others.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

I also have some doubts of your characterisation of your father as a drunk deadbeat Christian Republican. Frankly your first 2 adjectives don't match my experience with either Christians or Republicans (2 different groups with some but not complete overlap BTW)

George W Bush--drunk Christian Republican. Too much family money for the "deadbeat" to apply semantically.

And if you knew anything, you'd understand it was Bush's conversion to Christianity that got him OFF the bottle.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.

' REPLY TO THIS' ?

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

absentee

...don't let the door hit you in the a*s on the way out.

The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!

women like her will VOTE for HRC. Just like they so loved that loveable rogue WJC, who they just knew would take better care of them than their deadbeat husband/SO, they'll be sure that HRC will take care of their "special" needs. Plus, since HRC is more or less a woman, they won't have to worry so much about whether they can really "change him."

In Vino Veritas

of repressed sexual desires.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

She did actually respond to a direct query and admitted that the "will not pay for a mamogram" actaully means that they want proof of the medical necessity of an MRI before they pay for it (they may still pay for it).

But I'd say the rest of your post is right on and is typical of Democratic activists.

Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.