ABC News' Raddatz: Our troops in Iraq have a crush on Obama.
Spinning anecdotes is a journalistic game.
By Mark Kilmer Posted in Iraq | Obama | soldiers | War — Comments (141) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
ABC News reporter Martha Raddatz has a piece at their dot-com, Surprising Political Endorsements By U.S. Troops, in which she has a few anecdotes from a few, carefully selected soldiers about whom they support in the upcoming Presidential contest.
By my count, she spoke to nine soldiers. One of them supported Hillary, four supported Obama, and four didn't specify but maintained that they would support the candidate who would get them out of Iraq the fastest.
Though the military is generally a more conservative group, soldiers like Sgt. Justin Sarbaum are just as eager for a pull-out as the Democratic candidates.
Of course most would sooner be home with their families than engaging in the nasty business of warfare, but there is ugly work to be done. If it is fair to refer to Sgt. Sarbaum – whom I'm certain has concerns – as a merchant of surrender along the lines of Clinton or Obama, I would be very surprised. Otherwsie, Radditz owes him an apology.
Remember, folks, a small collection of anecdotes chosen to tell the story a reporter wants to be told is not scientific, is not journalism, and is indicative only of the reporter's dishonesty. It is not news that some of our soldiers are registered or even partisan Democrats who support their party's potential candidates; after all, they come from amongst Americans. It is disingenuous to misrepresent the words a few of them to attempt to indicate that the entire military supports Obama because they believe Iraq is an unjust war which we should surrender immediately. That is the province of Barry and Hillary and Raddatz; our soldiers can speak for themselves without the journalistic spin.
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ABC News' Raddatz: Our troops in Iraq have a crush on Obama. 141 Comments (0 topical, 141 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
... they show the video of the morons and idiots that make you laugh --- ever wonder how much video tape ends up on the cutting room floor?
John
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Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course
I heard the company commander was ready to shoot Rather when he learned the reporter's motives.
I'm guessing these troops who like Obama probably expect the anti-war rhetoric to give way to reality once Obama is sworn in, since they're more in-the-know than stateside civilians, but I'm not sure I'd want to take such a chance with a political neophyte.
http://corner.nationalreview.com:80/post/?q=MjhhMTM2ZmNmMmJmYTUxMjk0NWM5...
Military people speak with their feet....As in, are they re-enlisting, or no?
... bothered with reporting facts, they get in the way of 'changing the world' which is the result of the advent of journalism schools.
John
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Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course
Reenlistment rates are higher for soldiers in theature becuase the bonus is tax free. It is a mistake to use that as a proxy for their level of support for the war.
want to explain why the same phenomenon did not manifest itself during Vietnam when, like today, reenlistment bonuses -- they've been offered since 1954 -- were offered tax free?
The notion that someone is going to agree to spend another four years (and probably two combat tours) in the military for the sake of a tax free bonus that is paid in annual increments cheapens their action, demeans their character, and insults our intelligence.
"A man does what he can and endures what he must."
...and I should have been clearer.
While I am sure many soldiers reenlist becuase of the bonus (why else would we offer it?), most due not enlist purely for financial reasons.
For a soldier or sailor that has decided to reenlist, the timing of doing it overseas is to maximize the the tax free benefit.
So my original point remains, overseas reenlistments are a poor proxy for support for the war among our servicemen and women.
your original statement remains as flawed as it was originally.
Larding it up with additional unsubstantiated hypotheticals doesn't improve upon a fatally flawed premise.
First, you didn't answer the question of why this behavior didn't manifest itself in Vietnam when the bonuses were comparable to today's bonuses as a function of base salary.
Second, you don't explain why someone would willingly sign up for two (Army) or more (Marine) additional combat tours if they didn't believe in what they were doing.
Third, reenlistment rates at home station, at least for the Army, are also at historic highs. There are no tax advantages there.
"A man does what he can and endures what he must."
I'm hardly alone there.
My opinion with respect to this is admitedly anecdotal, it based on my direct observation during my service.
As for why these reenlistment patterns didnt emerge during Vietnam, I have no idea. If I were to guess, it would be becuase today we have an all volunteer military, so your sample population is prescreened to a favorable view of military service and volunteerism.
As to why they would sign up for additional combat tours if they didnt believe in what they are doing, I have no idea. My whole point is that we don't have enough data to infer motives. Maybe they don't think the war is good policy but don't want to leave their friends behind. Maybe they think this war is misguided policy but only temporary, and they are taking a long view that the military offers them a great career.
My original point remains the same. Using reenlistment data as a proxy for support for the war is potentially misleading.
it's frightening that you people really believe your own propaganda...that you are supporting the troops by gettimg them killed...why can't you face the reality that they don't wanna die and it's time to bring them home, as obama wants to do...
Really? How many do you know personally?
Try spreading your fallacious nonsense somewhere else and go back to supporting the guy who sat in a hate America "church" for 20 years; but, really he didn't know what was going on. It was just his mentor, but he never heard such things; no really..
"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report
Find the Shift key, start using periods to end your sentences, and for the love of God, spell-check. This isn't supposed to be just about your own orgasm.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I just polled more soldiers than the author and not one Obama or Hillary supporter, again not one. So should I splash that across a story backdrop that was made to fit the meme complete with fill in the blank names and quotes?
Dear Martha, there are approximately 140,000 troops in Iraq an you picked 9; congratulations. If you like, I can send you to an FOB for the follow up story with a guarantee of different results.
I have grown quite tired of the liberal horde and their disengenuous MSM liege coordinating specious attacks on our generals and then attempting to have their reporting reflect some meme that tries, ever so dishonestly to suggest our troops want to abandon the mission.
This is a prime example of liberal MSM proclivity to use the troops as political pawns. So while we applaud and tell stories of bravery, sacrifice and dedication they resort to agenda driven propaganda.
Sorry madam, you are an ass and simpleton.
"Nec Aspera Terrent"
bene ambula et redambula
Contributor to The Minority Report
Both sides have been guilty of that in this war.
Bottom line is it really doesnt matter. The support of the troops neither legitimizes nor deligitimizes the conflict. Democrats, Republicans, and the MSM alike should respect the military as apolitical.
when another "Berlin Crisis" developed. My company deployed to "Checkpoint Charlie" in APC's and my APC was positioned right up at the border and just across from a Soviet tank.
A television news team from one of the major networks came up and talked to my squad about how we felt about the "crisis." When they had finished talking to us, they left. We were curious because they did not film or record the interviews.
When we saw them stop at the main company position two blocks inside the Wall, we gave the rear echelon a "heads up." The rear echelon reported that, although the news people talked to just about everyone in the rear area, they did not film or record.
This was getting interesting, so we sent a "heads up' to all other units about this television crew. We tracked them to Templehoff airport where the rest of our Battalion was in alert positions, then to the barracks areas at McNair and Andrews and, finally, to the Berlin Brigade Headquarters on Clayallee.
At Clayallee, they filmed a newbe, a recently arrived clerk decked out in combat gear. He had not yet finished inprocessing and was totally clueless about the situation in Berlin. Naturally, he was worried and fearfull. All other people that the television crew had interviewed were used to these "Berlin Crisises" and understood that that it was an East Bloc propraganda exercise not a real threat.
However, as Tom Broklaw pointed out, years later, when the suits in New York wanted a particular story, a television crew that failed to get the story would soon find themselves selling ad space for Grit. A television crew, who went all out to find people to back up what the suits in New York wanted, would get better assignments, bigger salaries and, maybe, wind up as anchors.
I have met several Marines who used to be Republican supporters but now have lost faith in both parties and ironically see Obama as the only sober one they can trust. I received a lecture from a double amputee just a few weeks ago at a party I had about certain decisions that both Hillary and McCain helped to make that ticked Marines off. The one's I've spoken with don't trust the RNC and they don't trust or like Hillary. I was puzzled by their support of Obama but they seem to agree with him as far as "the mindset" behind the war and they don't think that Hillary or McCain have their interests in mind as they are beltway insiders. They seem to trust McCain a little more as a veteran, but they don't trust the larger RNC.
Years ago when I began volunteering at WRAMC I met many Army and National Guardsmen that were pretty apolitical. It was rare that I could get any service-members to really express their support of a candidate. But now as the election really heats up they are becoming more vocal and while a few have made statements like "I didn't fight terrorists to elect one to office" (exact quote) with regards to BHO, it just feels like they are pretty sick of any insiders carrying any stale taglines.
However, not to discount their perspective, I do keep in mind that these are patients who are dealing with serious grief and pain, so perhaps Obama seems like an uplifting choice given their circumstances?
...it's time for the "soldiers aren't supporting the Republican candidate" stories to start showing up. I refer here to the original post, not your comment.
Are there soldiers out there who aren't voting the Republican candidate? I certainly hope so: the last thing that this country needs is a military drawn exclusively from one political party*. Are there any real signs that this percentage is increasing? Nothing that comes to mind, although no doubt people will now start providing what they consider to be incontrovertible proof.
Just as long as they're polite about it.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
*To the extent that this problem does exist, it is the responsibility of the Democratic Party to fix it.
I do realize that the info I provided is purely of my own experience as my purpose in heading up to WRAMC is not to poll but to befriend and console. I don't presume to provide incontrovertible proof, but merely how the attitudes have shifted over the years since I began going up. But its a revolving door up at the hospital for the most part, so I wonder if being away from their homes, normalcy and culture has a lot to do with their skepticism. I just wanted to share a little of the political back and forth that I am privy to amongst injured soldiers.
The far more interesting factor I have witnessed are families where the parents are voting McCain and their sometimes grown children are pretty vocal about voting for Obama...but I don't think anyone is surprised by that.
Like those in this survey are more prone to Democratic party sympathies.
Its anecdotal, but in my time in the Navy I suspect that the sailors I served with were 60/40 in their partisan leanings.
If this reporter had talked to the officer corps she likely would have gotten a completely different response.
When the general election heats up (and Obama/Hillary becomes the center of some 527s' truth or fiction wrath) I doubt the people "on the ground" as a majority will support him/her.
This reporter's "work" reminds me of an interview I saw some time ago, taped during the siege of Khe Sanh. Some knuckleheaded reporter asks a Marine, "Do you want to be here"? Well, go back from 1968 to Iwo Jima in Feb/March 1945, and ask the same stupid question. If the guy didn't shoot you, he likely would have answered in the negative. So, I guess in the MSM's world, that would have meant World War Two was a failure.
I have also begun to hear new information/complaints from some veterans about TBI (Traumatic Head Injuries) that would lead me to believe that once the Dems settle on a candidate they intend to make this a larger issue. I will provide more info once I have received credible research, but apparently a certain treatment for TBI has been available since the 90s and was not employed in Germany, Afghanistan or Iraq for those suffering from TBI. This was part of the lecture a Marine gave me recently. He described a medical process that was omitted by the military who opted for prescription meds instead of this procedure that was aimed at decreasing swelling and pacifying damage. He went onto explain the apparently obvious lack of logic in flying patients with this injury in planes at high altitudes, and how more is going to come out about the handling of TBIs this summer. But before fanning flames, I'll check my source and hopefully be able to prove that this wasn't the case.
I just offer it as more of the hearsay I have received from vets and inactive duty service members.
If the Dems cared about the troops, they would make an issue of TBI "now".
Waiting for the general election would not only be immoral, it would be lousy politics. The timing would make their case easily refuted. (Of course, that's just my opinion.)
They hate America, they hate the troops, and they'll do whatever they have to if they think it will further the march of totalitarianism in Ameri KKK a.
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... or your Marine friend the vast majority of our veterans are not doctors or medical researchers. There are always a number of procedures, practices and medications that are devised in this and other countries that are not approved for use in American civilian or military hospitals because they are not proven to be safe or even effective. The fact that the US military is not employing some procedure in favor of some other procedure is not damning in my mind.
Is this the case here? I don't know, but given the current attitude of the Democrats were we to adopt some unapproved procedure, no matter how effective, the military would be accused of using "our beloved soldiers" as guinea pigs.
Just saying.
John
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Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course
longer hear "It's Tommy this and Tommy that" from the Democratic contenders but "make way for Mister Atkins, his vote is necessary." But Kipling's last line will remain true "Tommy knows."
In the past, polls of our military men and women have shown that it's the officer corps who are consistently more conservative than the electorate as a whole. Not the enlisted soldiers. They tend to track pretty closely to the civilians' attitudes. (Which shouldn't surprise anybody, since they come from there, rather than from military academies.) In particular, black soldiers vote staunchly Democrat, just like their families do.
Americans are clearly divided on the war and what to do about it, and on which candidate to elect to do something about it. I think that the soldiers in Iraq will turn out to be just as divided.
I'm sure the officer corps will be solidly behind McCain though.
there is a fairly large difference in the trends between officers and enlisted on a wide range of topics, politics being just one of them.
Nine for nine, who are we to argue? I40,000 troops in Iraq and only nine dare speak their minds, Dick Cheney's evil hand stretches far and wide.
Although it is possible that Martha Raddatz has done her bit to lower a debauched, unskilled trade , journalism, one more notch into the vomitorium. A trade on a par with pimps, dope pushers, and child pornographers, at least for now.
"a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville
Comparing pimps, dope pushers and child pornographers to journalists. Please apoligize immediately before the feelings of the pimps, drug pushers and child pornographers are too badly damaged.
Pelosi and company will make a victim class out of them before long anyway and you will end up supporting them with your tax dollars. It's only fair --- and remember, its for the children.
John
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Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course
Um, excuse me, but as an active duty soldier...
I don't see in the article where the reporter states that ALL American soldiers are being discussed. It is merely reported that there are some surprising endorsements. It is clear that only a few get a quote, though it is not clear how many were spoken to. Anyway, how many ever get spoken to for an article?
How do YOU know how "carefully selected" these soldiers were? You just know? Sounds awfully licentious and paranoid of you.
And verrrry misleading.
So, it is dishonest to state that you know that this reporter is trying to indicate that the entire military supports Obama or Hillary. There was not a single comment to suggest that. Of course, we can't say for sure that this reporter is NOT biased, but to take your leaps is what I see all-too-often on this site.
For the record, in my unit of 21 soldiers, I haven't done a complete survey but so far there is one possible McCain supporter (who dislikes Bush) and at least 8 Obama supporters. I haven't heard anything about Hillary. Now, to be fair, we are part of a hospital unit, and I know there are different sentiments in the infantry and other areas.
So, rant on about how you know for sure how biased this is, but, as a ground-level soldier in the Army, don't be surprised to find that informed soldiers are picking Obama.
Also, for the record and as an aside--frankly, I am tired of the party of chickenhawks Cheney, Limbaugh, Wolfowitz, and so many others who didn't serve impugn the patriotism of the party of people like Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Randi Rhodes, and even Greens like Ralph Nader--all of whom served in the military. And I am a Republican who has only ever worked on Republican campaigns (most notably Richard Snelgrove, Utah 2nd District, 1988 vs. incumbent Wayne Owens).
from a reputable source to Cheney or Wolfowitz either one impugning these people's patriotism? I won't include Limbaugh, because he's not in the government.
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then I would have to disagree with the idea that an active duty soldier providing a dissenting opinion is trolling. A lot of people here don't like it, but there is substantial anti-Iraq (for lack of a better phrase) and anti-Bush in the military, even among the conservative soldiers, just like there are many that would vehemently defend Bush and/or Iraq policy.
Which is why the troll's gone.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Although I would be curious to see an exploration of where the line is on using a "chickenhawk" argument vs. using an argument such as saying McCain's military service and leadership makes him more qualified to be commander-in-chief than he would otherwise have been (something I very much agree with).
Clearly there is a difference between the two, and I have NEVER called someone a "chickenhawk" (although not really due to any strong aversion to the word I guess), but it would seem that at some point those two arguments have a little bit of overlap.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Whether he is what he says he is is immaterial. A troll's a troll though, as Moe already said.
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I didn't realize the "chickenhawk" argument was automatic trolling until Moe pointed it out, although I understand why. Distracts from the real underlying issues.
It's an autoban because we've learned that people who use it tend to be abjectly stupid and/or vile about other things, too. It's not even an argument; it's the result of desperate flailing about by people who dimly understand that they somehow have grasped at the dirty end of a moral stance, but who lack either the necessary clarity of thought or enough ethical sense to understand quite why. All that's left is a gormless spew that tries to drag us down to their level.
Plus, we suspect that they also wear their underpants on their heads.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Now, the thrust of Ms. Raddatz's story was that the military supported Obama.
The opening line of the story:
ABC's Martha Raddatz asked American soldiers in Iraq what issues are most important to them when looking at the presidential candidates.
Not several soldiers, not a few soldiers, but American soldiers.
Though the military is not supposed to engage in partisan political activity, these soldiers spoke out about their personal endorsements.
That is a mischaracterization. See HERE.
And she launches into quotes given in her supplied context from soldiers who do not support McCain.
Again, thank you for your service, and each soldier is entitled to his or her vote, despite what the Dems did in Florida, 2000. But Ms. Raddatz's representation was a very clear and predictable instance of media bias.
that the article should have been more forthright about its purpose, which clearly seemed to be highlighting "surprising" pro-Obama or anti-Iraq sentiment in the military.
Other then that issue, I think the topic of the article is worthy of investigation.
or "less dishonest"? It should surprise no one that some members of the military support the Obama or Hillary, but that's not her narrative.
Harvard for cheating on a Spanish exam.
He was assigned to SHAPE headquarters in Paris.
Of course, this was honorable service, and it was perhaps Kennedy's closest approach to reality.
He returned to Harvard after the Army, and the downward spiral resumed. :>)
You're certainly entitled to your opinion and I think it speaks very highly of your character that you may disagree with the mission and the C-In-C and yet, you continue to serve. Having said that, I don't really buy into the whole "troops have a crush on obama" despite your rather unscientific poll. Here's why, in 2004 the military vote went to GWB by a 74-26 margin. That is astronomical. Couple that with the fact that it had already become apparent that Iraq was not the cakewalk many in the public expected and with the fact that Kerry was a veteran and it is amazing that the Dems couldn't crack 30% of the military vote. Even at the Nadir of the Iraq war, last march before the surge had taken effect, The Economist had an article that essentially said that military support for the republican party had dropped to a new low of around 60% (according to the actual scientific poll they cited). Now it seems to me that if support for the R's was still at 60% during the worst of the worst, then they really do not need to worry about losing the military vote to obama. In 2008, you will have obama, one of the most left wing, and insincere presidential candidates in recent history. On the other hand you will have a veteran and pow as the candidate of a party that is traditionally supported by the military in overwhelming numbers. Until I see actual evidence (i.e. scientific polls) to the contrary, i have to disregard your informal polls and anecdotes. If barack can even garner close to a third of the military vote i would be very surprised and he will most likely split votes similar to GWB in 2004 (74-26). I
It is my experience in 14 years in the military, both active Army and National Guard that giving your political opinions to a reporter is something that you just don't do. The commanders I have had would be furious if I told a reporter who I was voting for and why. Not that we don't have opinions, we do, usually strongly held, it is just considered innappropriate to discuss politics with civilians, never mind reporters, when in uniform. Now arguing amongst ourselves while in uniform out of the public eye is another matter.....
And those soldiers that do go out of their way to give opinions to reporters, on any subject, are likely not a accurate sample of the whole population.
and had a several individuals jump in screaming bloody murder at the idea that a substantial portion of the troops disagree with our presence in Iraq.
"Stay the course" is basically RedState's policy #1 in many ways, and there seems to be an almost pathological need to own the troops' opinion among certain individuals here (I'm not saying all, or even most: just some). I considered doing a diary on the topic of soldier sentiment on Iraq, but I decided it would be nearly impossible to have a discussion on the topic here.
It was my experience that opinions were fairly split on the topic, with plenty feeling strongly on both sides. Such polls as I have seen seem to back that up. Suffice to say that while this article definitely seemed to have an agenda--in terms of highlighting Obama and "leave Iraq" sentiment--the military isn't as far off from public opinion as some would like to believe. I would say maybe 10-20 points if I were to stab at it, although I haven't seen too much polling data since the surge (anyone have links?), especially from conservative sources.
I will hit my Army five year mark this Thursday, have served in three reserve units, done one 7-month tour (Ramadi 2005), and my opinion should NOT be seen as as a broad, active duty, multi-tour opinion. That being said, polls I've seen (the annual Military Times poll, newspapers, etc.) seem to reinforce my impressions. It should also be noted that I am now against our current Iraq level of activity (I was very much for the initial involvement), but I am still planning to vote McCain.
our soldiers "come from amongst Americans," with our varied opinions and leanings. My complaint, as you note, was that Ms. Raddatz published only the opinions which fit the story she wanted to tell. That is bad journalism.
it ain't bad journalism...it was bad politics to invade Iraq...
Heck, just look at how bad it was for politics when people opposed slavery. It's always easier to do nothing when evil operates.
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Just ask Clement Vallandingham.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Just go away. We all know that you will end up saying something that will get you banned.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
.... i read a while back stated that ron paul had received the most military donations ...
... barack obama was #2
.... what's paul's take on continuing the Iraq war?
.... just asking
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
You on the other hand, as an unpaid, volunteer shill for an evil man, should be ashamed of yourself.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
and here i thought you'd comment on paul's promise to leave Iraq and the fact that it prompted the highest donation total from the military ...
FYI: i do not support ron paul, but either way, i fail to see how whether i do or not is cogent to a situation that is clearly stated in the public record and does not require an opinion one way or another to fathom.
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its RepubliCan
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
...please use the Shift key while doing it.
(pause)
Actually, don't offer grammar lessons at all.
Moe Lane
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Nor was it about spelling,
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I keep thinking if I turn around quickly I will see Leon's "I judge you harshly" graphic hovering behind me.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
So let me get this straight.
If you voice your support for anyone other than McCain and you are in the service this means your an idiot?. ABC news MUST have cut the Pro McCain comments right?, that dammn liberal media @ it again. Spare me, the troops cant stand McCain or Bush,BUSH for obvious reasons. "Republicans" are pro military clap trap is coming to an end as the military see's that "pro" means using it to whatever illegal "Preemtive" strike the Party seems fit, even if that means destryomg the military in the process. 4,000 dead, 25,000 wounded, for what?. WMD, NOPE, 911, NOPE, Democracy, NOPE.
Obama will clobber McCain in debates, cant wait..............
Let's all note though that a union teacher, probably a left-wing Democrat, produced the student that wrote with the above grammar and spelling.
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much noise .... little cogent rebuttal from the regulars ..
..... punctuation and spelling trumps reality.
... it sounds like the military is saying:
If you voice your support for McCain and you are in the service your an idiot.
.... most military $'s went to paul followed by obama .... that suggests some discontent from the troops over war policy ...
..... how bout i missppelll something to give you an opening to reply
..... i've read numerous threads here and have been surprised by the occasional outbursts of sanity ....
.... thank gawd we won't be exposed to any of that in this discussion.
If you have such hostility to us, then get out. Further attacks on our community will be taken as a statement that you post in bad faith.
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Can't you see that he yearns for the banning the way that a masochist yearns for the lash?
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I seem to recall one.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
there was a Darth Cheney IIRC.
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
Also a Darth Cuddly, darthcrUSAderworldtour2007 (yeah, I'm going to go check that one now), Darth Kosh (pretty good, actually) and a darthstar. There's also a ewokninja, Chewbacca, skywalker, & Skywalker911.
(pause)
Better than I expected, actually.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
They all blur together.
Like the Darth Kosh, the Vorlons were definitely darkside oriented. Ah B5 a show where you had to use the political compass to plot the sides.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
.... the customary knee jerk reaction to hearing something you don't like?
.... all it took was referring to a houston newspaper article to elicit the word "ban" ....
..... is site traffic so high here you can afford to ban all who disagree?
.... if so, congrats .... and have at it.
in this case, however ..... your problem is not with anyone on this board, but with the soldiers who chose to give more money to those who would end the war than those who would continue it.
.... what would you call that?
.......... transferred agression?
.... you punctuation and spelling are perfect ..
......... your logic ... not so much.
..... entertainment value abounds.
Earn the whip.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
in fact I was even going to suggest it. Lets keep this one, in a jar with holes in the top, and feed it grass and sticks and things.
He's not cute or anything, but it is kind of fun to observe some of nature's creatures.
.... how bout a little gratitude?
..... before i posted in this thread, not one discussion on the entire front page had > 60 comments .... most had < 10
..... this one now has over 100_
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
that sits tucked away above Jabba the Hut's head.
Not that I think of Moe as Jabba.
Totally more Jango Fett.
"I know that laugh...."
...centered on why it's a bad idea to clone an army from a guy who wasn't bright enough to buy body armor that could protect against decapitation.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
You've got me....I just think of him as a behind-the-scenes badda**, but I suppose ultimately he was a little short-sighted in his armor choices.
The Mods only seem to ban those that can wield a verbal pointy stick. You seem to be using a large trout and mostly hitting yourself.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
.... after all the name calling ...
paul still leads in military $'s donated ..... why is that?
..... prove to me that a sharp stick in your hands isn't a threat to your vision.
In order to get any kind of control you have to whip them around. If you do that though you pretty much telegraph all your shots.
But let me play your game.
I can pick a position at random of Dr. Paul and then assign a preference for it to a group.
Paul still leads in dollars donated from internet fund raising. People on the internet are obviously pro life.
Paul leads in dollars raised from the Porn Industry obviously they are a hard money crowd.
Paul leads in money raised from Neo Nazis obviously they are pacifists.
Your pointy stick is kind of blunt.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
... that couldn't be cured by a comprehensive remedial reading class.
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/press-releases/5/ron-paul-receives-most-milit...
... not porn stars .... not neo-nazis ..... the US military__
..... try moving your lips while you read .... it helps my dog.
I don't know perhaps its the delivery. You need more. You might try originality or perhaps thought. Just digging up stuff that's been done to death doesn't seem to connect.
Also I can recognize the current black culture references but they are lost on me. There just isn't an emotional charge.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Its expected that I am lucky if I manage to use a subject and predicate in a sentence.
What's your excuse ?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
half his brain tied behind his back. You'd know that if you ever bothered to read any of his posts.
Tim Schieferecke
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Could you please post without that? Really. It reminds me of one of the people at the Broncos site I have on Ignore just for that reason.
___________________________________
Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
Sheesh. Took him long enough.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
I have ever seen for a troll. I am still not certain the posts were actually meant to be insulting.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
These guys, they play for a while, and then when they get bored, their posts take on a certain tone. He'd hit that point and gone WELL past it.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
He was so bad at it. I actually found him calming almost funny. Kind of like those kids in suburban malls pretending they are ghetto thugs.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
I was able to shower, get dressed, start some laundry, get some water, re-heat dinner, and start eating before he finally went far enough.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
I came in late in the game and I nearly woke my son up I was laughing so hard at how much you guys were laying into him.
Fighting for conservatism one day at a time.
"If you voice your support for McCain and you are in the service your an idiot."
Good of you to clarify your position.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
rather than trying to retype the moveon.org talking point of the week.
Then again, maybe it was written that way....
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GOP McCain for President, 2008
dsteiger, what will a President Obama do to our volunteer enlistment numbers? Why would anyone want to serve under such an America hater as BHO? It's not much of a stretch to say he would demand our troops go into harm's way with a compassion gun that shoots French-like bagels with optional cream-cheese. Obama is a joke, and no one who actively engages their cranium would ever vote for him whether they're in the military or not!
Tim Schieferecke
I might have volunteered in the 1990's, when I was still in the desired age range, but Clinton's handling of Somalia was just the first step in a long march beginning with the wrong foot. By the time 9/11 happened, I was 31 and I really didn't want to answer certain recruiter questions dishonestly. I'm glad the recruited talent was more than sufficient.
As a rather avid user of my cranium, and the rather juicy BRAINSSSSS stored within, I take exception to that. "It's not much of a stretch to say he would demand our troops go into harm's way with a compassion gun that shoots French-like bagels with optional cream-cheese." That's more than silly. Have his policy papers indicated a rapid increase in "compassion gun" R&D funding? Has he gone on the record that he intends to shift us from our current GI bagels to a more "French-like" model?
I don't like speaking for someone else, but my friends and family in the service who have expressed support for Senator Obama (which isn't all of them, but it is a majority of them) have IQ's above the level you'd suggest from your post are endemic to his supporters. They've pretty much said that they are sick of being deployed in an open-ended mission that has constantly had "victory" redefined. The ones I've spoken to have generally come to the conclusion that invading Iraq was a mistake and we aren't likely to accomplish anything useful by continuing it.
It's not like they got hit with a hockey stick, fell down, got up and decided to vote for Senator Obama.
You can do better than that.
Appreciate you trying to be civil, and all - but, honestly, this is what we normally get from your side; guys in digital gimp suits.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
.... monitor new
...owe you me
...... yoda say good weed this is
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Two thirds of the world is covered by water,
the other third is covered by Champ Bailey.
You are trying to spin a reality of widespread discontent that just isn't even close to accurate. We have a volunteer military. These Demoncrat politicians that wring their hands in feigned concern for our troops are deplorable. One of these days we will exorcise the evil that pervades the left in this country and the FACT that America can win at anything WE set out to do will again return to common thinking.
Tim Schieferecke
So be nice.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Harry Reed, Pelosi. My mom is a Democrat too. She is not a demoncrat politician. Context matters.
Tim Schieferecke
My bad.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
do need to try to be nicer. I just view the abject American nihilism we see daily from the left as I would view someone breaking into my house. I'm gonna attack it with everything I've got. You're teaching me how to do it more respectfully. Have a good one.
Tim Schieferecke
I believe I rather plainly stated that this was anecdotal and not a larger trend, based on my own experiences. If I was not plain and clear before, let me be so now:
These people's views are not indicative, to my mind, of some larger, over-arching trend. These people are my friends and family. It is not shocking that we'd have similar views.
Happy?
Happily, my point wasn't to suggest any such thing, but rather to take issue with your suggestion that somebody would have to be retarded to support Senator Obama. That's either hyperbole or counterfactual. You pick.
As far as "feigned concern" goes, well, let's see. Is Senator Biden feigning concern, now that his son is back from Iraq? What about the "Demoncrats," as you term them, who have served in the military?
Do you equate a lack of support for a mission as a lack of support for the troops? If so, I'd be curious to know what your views were of our operations in Bosnia et al, at the time we were there. While I do not presume to know your views, I do recall many conservatives taking issue with the mission in the Balkans.
Surely anything we set out to do can be done. I even agree with you, within sane limits. That's not the issue. The issue is that anything we do is automatically correct, sane, or best is a faulty proposition.
Congress is entrusted with the power of the purse. Would you suggest that at any time of war, conflict, or deployment the Congress should abrogate oversight and pecuniary powers? Again, I can think of examples of Republicans not supporting deployments.
Have a care and please do better than name-calling. I won't use hilariously partisan nicknames if you won't!
give President Bush The Authorization To Use Military Force Against Iraq, and then when things weren't going well and to appease their out and out kooky fringes said they were tricked into voting in the affirmative? I think demoncrat politicians defines them pretty damn well! I have a lot of respect for the few politicians on the Democrat side of the aisle that voted their consciences from the get go, and none for those that twist in the wind of relativity.
Tim Schieferecke
If your point is that you can respect Democrats who voted against the authorization on principle, and do no not respect those who ignored their principles, then I can understand that. One of the most compelling reasons I have in *not* supporting Senator Clinton is her vote to authorize. It was obvious triangulation. Half of the Senate Democrats voted against it, though.
I would like to point out that people can, oh I don't know, learn things and perhaps come to new conclusions. So when someone who voted for the authorization of the war later says that it was a mistake, based on new information, I can understand that. Depending on the particulars, I can even respect it.
Recent polling suggests that it isn't just the "kooky fringe" that is unhappy with this endeavor.
I didn't come here looking for friends. I came here looking to sharpen my debate skills and learn a thing or two. Your bellicosity is duly noted, sir.
For what it's worth, I call out other liberals for using equivalent derogatory verbage. It has no place in reasoned discourse, but finds itself entirely too much at home with those who have already made up their minds. For those who seek neither knowledge nor challenge, but merely agreement, name-calling can be fun.
See? I'm not trying to "buddy buddy" up to you.
I know more than a few active duty servicemen who support Obama. Some are officers, some are enlisted. My buddy in the JAG tells me that he hasn't heard a lot of pro-Republican stuff of late.
I'm not suggesting that this is anything more than anecdotal, but of course there are members of the Armed Forces who aren't Republican. How that plays in 2008 is an open question at this point, but historically they swing to the right, of course.
if some personnel want some improvement in a few areas. Being a Republican administration doesn't mean it administers every department equally as well as its predecessors. I don't know what the JAG's are looking for but I can imagine their department getting crazy sometimes.
...we should be worried if there aren't a lot of Democrats in the military.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Set them against an Enemy of the Working Class and they're great fighters. We were so lucky that Hitler betrayed Stalin in WWII.
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"If we want to take this party back, and I think we can someday, let’s get to work." – Barry Goldwater
I think, in a few days, we'll be reminded that the French actually have some of the best counterterror experts in the world, as they pursue that hijacked yacht.
that yacht was hijacked by "pirates" I believe. Would those pirates be Islamist extremists by any chance...and why doesn't the MSM identify them as such?
Link? I didn't read anything about this being any type of jihadist attack...could have easily missed it though.
Here are a couple of links:
http://newsbusters.org/node/2700
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20071103/ai_n21090578
The second link includes this:
Virtually nowhere in Africa does a government wield less authority than in Somalia, a land awash in weapons and displaced people, with Islamic insurgents battling government and allied Ethiopian troops. The U.S. military has targeted suspected al-Qaida fighters with airstrikes in Somalia.
Some Somali pirates are linked to the clans that have carved the country into armed fiefdoms. They have seized merchant ships, aid vessels and even a cruise ship.
Those clans are Islamic
Because that sure seems to be what you're saying.
In any case, this article is a blip. Could it have been improved by including a dissenting POV? Sure, but I doubt it would have made you happy.
Now that you drag JAG into it, here's an angle that might explain the lack of distaste for Senator Obama among servicemen: I was taught nearly 20 years ago that truthfulness is not a defense under Article 88 of the UCMJ.
Given Senator Obama's machine politics background, his twenty years' tutelage under Pastor Wright, his pathological lying, and his arrogant disdain for America and Americans, it is nigh impossible for a commissioned officer to make any substantive honest statement about Senator Obama without risking punitive court-martial for contemptuous words.
I wonder how many soldiers the interviewer had to go through in order to get 4 Obama supporters and 1 Hillary supporter?