Has Iran Just Declared War?
By Erick Posted in War — Comments (38) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Iran captured fifteen British Royal Navy personnel during a "routine boarding operation" in Iraqi waters on Friday, Britain's Ministry of Defense said.
Iran's ambassador in London has been summoned and Britain is demanding the immediate safe release of the sailors.
The Iranians went into Iraqi territorial water and seized the British sailors.
Has Iran decided, with Britain leaving Iraq and the U.S. Congress intent on killing the war effort, that the West has gone weak? Have the Democrats' machinations on Capitol Hill emboldened the Iranians?
My guess is yes. The Iranians think with the Democrats demanding there be no war with Iran and the President forced repeatedly to say there are no plans, the Iranians have taken the hint and geared up, knowing the Democrats will not tolerate an American response.
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Peace through superior fire power:)
back in 2004 8 British sailors and their craft were seized by the Iranians.
I think Erick has hit this spot on. Iran has suffered some recent reverses in Iraq and managed to lose a handful of its senior operatives, it is trying to regain face by picking on someone they know won't fight back.
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling
...Democratic Congress, the lefty blogs, rags like Truthout, etc, etc, etc to take any retaliation against an Iranian act - however egregious that might be - and to blame Bush for (a) provoking it, (b) fabricating it, or (c) having lied in the past about not going to war with Iran, because changing circumstances have no validity in their political machinations.
If we suffer the same fate - troops kidnapped or murdered, interests more overtly attacked - we can expect the shrill anti-Bush, anti-US war rhetoric to increase as well, with greater condemnations of a US retaliation for an act of war than there even were for the invasion of Iraq.
Someone who can communicate past the antiwar nuts.
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
There doesnt seem to be any men there anymore.
The longer we dwell on our misfortunes the greater is their power to harm us - Voltaire
Boudica was fierce, fiery, and very short-lived, as her attempt at revolt led her and her followers to be massacred.
is that in 2004 the Brits admitted to being in Iranian waters, this incursion was clearly in Iraqi waters.
Managing Editor
in 2004 the Brits were in Iraqi waters in the Shatt al Arab and were taken by the Iranians. The UK forces said it was possible they might have strayed into Iranian waters not that they did.
There was never an admission that they were in Iranian territory and the Iranians portrayed the "might" as "were."
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling
Except I heard the British are saying they were definitely in Iraqi waters this time.
Doesn't matter practically, does it? Does anyone expect the Iranians to actually hold these guys? And what would they want in return for their release?
Iran reminds me of a foolish child who pokes a vicious dog with a stick. So far, the dog has been very, very tolerant and hardly growls. I wonder if the Brits have the nerve to bite the little brat?
Time to slap the living crap out of that little midget and his merry band of medieval mullahs.
People like that only understand violence. To them them, the West always wanting to "talk" is a sign of weakness. And contrary to what the left believes, weakness INVITES more aggression.
I say give the Iranian dictator (and call him that) until tomorrow at noon London time to turn the sailors and their equipment back unharmed or we turn their only oil refinery into ashes. This will be cataclysmic for their economy.
On H & C yesterday, Dennis Kucinich said he is going to sponsor a House Resolution seeking Articles of Impeachment against President Bush for threatening Iran with miltary action... an act prohibited by the United Nations.
When asked what military action Bush had threatened, Kucinich clarified that Bush has repeatedly said that 'no options are off the table' when asked if he would be willing to use military force to stop Iran from building a bomb if that became necessary.
I've no doubt if the British were to actively protest this kidnapping, or worse, take some kind of economic or military action, House Democrats would find therein a major scandal somewhere requiring a full investigation of the Bush Whitehouse. Maybe we gave the Brits satellite intel photos or something without Harry Reid's approval. Rove would have to be subpoenaed and made to testify under oath as to what he knew and when. Any internal Whitehouse memos or emails that might relate to this incident would have to be scrutenized.
would a violation of ANYTHING the UN says consist of high crimes and misdemeanors in the US? Last I checked there wasn't any law saying that we had to do what the UN said...and if there is such a law and I missed it, it's high time we ditch the UN as the ineffective waste of money that it is so we don't have to deal with that sort of thing.
Never mind, I forgot that Kucinich, et al, aren't really on earth anymore anyway...that's why they think they can impeach a president doing something the UN says he can't...
"I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves."
Ronald Reagan
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan
Since 1980, the mullahocracy has suffered no bad consequences for kidnapping Westerners, including diplomats, and for instigating massive amounts of terrorism. The taking down of Saddam just made them feel more secure. Perhaps it's time to show them what insecurity feels like. They consider economic sanctions a badge of honor and get all the resources they want from Russia and China. Taking out their oil refinery and destroying their nuclear program assets would teach them a lesson, but only if it was accompanied by a total embargo on shipments of fuel into Iran. It can be done.
we just haven't had a true fight with them yet. It has to be coming though, and let's just hope hit happens before they have a nuclear weapon at their disposal.
This is what happens when you play footsie with the Mullahs for years in the UN. They are laughing at our weakness. You can bet they are planning right now how to kidnap and kill some of our senior commanders after losing three of their own last week...It is way past time to unleash the USAF on their infrastructure.
United States Air Force
http://airforcepundit.blogspot.com
As a Brit ex-pat I am mortified at this diplomatic capitulation. I can only assume the commander of the frigate had been instructed to avoid conrontation with Iran at all costs, and a change in this policy is sorely needed. Time to get mad.
All that is needed is a few well placed GBU's in the "refined fuel off loading terminals" to cripple their economy and bring about some major civil unrest to get the point across.
They have very little refining capacity and they are very dependent on importation of gasoline and diesel fuel. This will bring some very major instability in that country.
Wubbies World - The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you actually aim for it!
That way any fuel therein or that gets delivered there becomes ours and we can always turn the terminal and any personnel captured with it back over when our demands are met.
Just destroying the terminal leaves us with no way to back off if they cave or if something ahppens back home to prevent following through...
There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.
Considering that the UK is a NATO ally, and this would look to be an act of war, would Bush even need Congressional approval for military action?
You should know that the French nuclear carrier Charles de Gaulle and its task force had rendezvoused with the USS John C. Stennis and it’s task force in the Arabian Sea Wednesday for joint missions in the global war on terror. Its arrival raises to four the number of Western aircraft carriers cruising within striking distance of Iran, including the USS Eisenhower and USS Boxer. The Boxer led group is a Expeditionary Strike Group with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit on board… The 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operation Capable), or MEU(SOC), is designed to be the first on-scene in the event of crisis. It takes more than 2,100 men and women to form the 26th MEU (SOC) team.
The Charles de Gaulle is accompanied by French Task Force 473, which consists of five warships: the FNS Cassard guided missile destroyer, the FNS Tourville anti-submarine frigate, the FNS Dupleix destroyer adapted for escorting oil tankers and the FNS Marne, a command and supply vessel. Commander of the French task force is Rear Adm. Xavier Magne. Commander of the American flotilla is Rear Adm. Kevin Quinn.
A lot of hardware sailing there...
Since aircraft carriers fight without ever coming in sight of the enemy, how do the French expect to surrender?
Fortuna Favet Fortibus
It doesn't "carry" warplanes. It carries wine, cheese and white flags. Hopefully, the US ships will use it as a screening vessel.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
You are always on it like stink on Camembert.
"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"
Contributor to The Minority Report
...they have been modernizing and beefing up their naval units lately. Lord knows that the De Gaulle could use replacing, but it's what they've got, and it's somewhere useful.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
for screening.
And, while I generally have no use for the French military (or the French in general), I have endless admiration for the FFL.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
As many people as possible at Dresden again when the invasion finally declares openly...
There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.
How embarrassing for the crew.
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"We can all do our part to save the planet by dying." - R.E. Finch
Report is they were seized by Revolutionary Guards, similar to 2004. Unfortunately, this becomes a bit more complex especially with recent “disappearances” and defections of their comrades in Iraq. They are losing face, something that has not happened in some time. I suspect the Revolutionary Guards may feel that, in its entirety, their influence will be negatively impacted (by the way, are you listening Democrats). This will impact not only events in Iraq but also Lebanon. Could it possibly be this administrations policy may be achieving objectives by impacting the negative influence of countries like Iran? Only time will tell.
I frankly do not understand how the Brits did not see this coming. They had a Frigate and reportedly a helicopter in the vicinity a time of seizure. While, I do not know the rules of engagement and the boarding party was extremely exposed obviously any engagement is a large risk.
However, given past experience, a fast approaching vessel from Iranian waters had to be detected and is not a good sign (an observation NOT second guessing). It should be made clear to the Iranians that is considered hostile action and will be met with an appropriate response.
Certainly, no one wants an international incident, but there are a significant amount of forces built up for the right reasons. Nonetheless, when they start parading blindfolded sailors and marines in front of the camera again, I am curious what the reaction will be. Should we at least fire warning shots or move to defensive positions? You bet; that is not hostile it is a wise and advisable posture.
By the way; God Bless the Brits and their families. We have your six.
"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"
Contributor to The Minority Report
That may be true, and I honestly believe it is likely to be true. They may be lashing out in light of the defections/capture of their officers to save face.
I think they are gambling that the anti-war crowd is winning the day in the US and Britain and this will expedite the surrender and retreat by a tepid home front. Right now, I give them a 50/50 shot at being correct, but if they are wrong, it will be bad for them -really bad.
Wubbies World - The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you actually aim for it!
The intent was to portray that British and American forces are not looking to militarily engage Iranians, unless absolutely unavoidable. mea culpa
While no one can speak to the Iranian's intent, let's see how long they hold on to these guys. If they are quickly released, there are two possibilities; the Brits raised the stakes (e.g. threatened militarily) or the Iranian new year caused some overzealous Iranians RG's to be on patrol (doubtful given their structure and prominence this seizure could be expected to have).
However, if this takes time to resolve it may be based on an attempt to distract other issues (nuclear issues and the loss of influence in Iraq and to a degree Lebanon). If that happens expect an escalating game of Chicken, similar to the last seizure. The Iranian's will go for maximum PR, hoping this will buy some time or be used as a chip to get their guys in Iran back.
Either way, I am watching my back, waiting for them to seize U.S. personnel in the region.
"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"
Contributor to The Minority Report
for years and against the UK. When will a GOP candidate and the president acknowlegde it with some bombs of the factories for the munitions usedd and the military bases from which same are launched and where the Iranian soldiers are trained?
Mike Gamecock DeVine @ The Charlotte Observer
Starbucks cups hurl
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Don't make fun of the French military so lightly. When they are serious about fighting, the can do so quite well. They're all over Africa.
Some of their politicians are idiots, but their military works quite closely with ours when the need arises.
Perhaps we should take HIM hostage :o)
the British Navy has had a run in with Iran, althought this marks the first time personnel were catpured.
The last incident involved several Iranian gun boats harrassing a British frigate as it guarded an offshore oil terminal. The British commander showed amazing resolve in not firing on them, he refused to play into their provocation.
However, they did say they were going to be kidnapping personnel, did they do this in retaliation of claims that is being done to Iranian agents in southern Iraq?
Managing Editor