Redstate

The decision whether or not to quit depends on one's assessment of the likely outcome of doing so, not on whether or not Saddam had WMD in 2002.

The fact that Saddam gassed the Kurds back in 1988 is undisputed. Is that past tense enough for you?

Saddam had possessed chemical weapons in Iraq in 1988.
Insurgents have chemical weapons in Iraq in 2007.
Ergo, Saddam possessed chemical weapons in Iraq in 2002?
Maybe, maybe not. The evidence in 2002 points toward maybe not.

Evidence in 2003 (post invasion).

Every intelligence service in the world believed Saddam had WMD in 2002. Most of Saddam's generals believed that they had WMD. In the immediate post 9/11 world, a majority of reasonable people in this country (that happened to include Hillary Clinton and John Edwards) believed that Iraq was dangerous enough to authorize the use of force.

The tragic events at Virginia Tech today remind us of the damage that one lone nut can do. The day is nearly upon us where one lone nut will be able to kill 30 million people, not just 30. Our vigilance in being proactive to prevent such unspeakable horrors must never waver. Sometimes that will mean we attack when it was proven later to be wrong. But in a world of ever-more horrifying WMDs, failure to attack could have consequences far worse than any of us can possibly imagine.

and I would quibble to such an insignificant degree with your second that it's not worth bothering.
I'm not commenting on whether or not we were justified in thinking Saddam had WMD in 2002. All I'm saying is that it turned out that he probably didn't (a 2002 stockpile could show up any day and prove me wrong, so I use probably).
Also, just because a bunch of Democrats felt a certain way at a certain time, doesn't mean I agreed with them.

The sad dual reality of the above several comments is that:

1. Even if WMD were finally found today, the left and press would almost certainly make the case (not directly, but through innuendo and selective coverage) that:

a) there still wasn't enough found to justify the invasion and
b) we probably planted it ourselves. Nothing must be allowed to destroy the meme that 'Bush lied'.

2. Regadless of what is done in the name of vigilance, it will be decried (again by the Left and the media) as:

a) an unnecessary intrusion into personal liberty,
b) being foisted on an American public as a fear tactic to justify (a) above, and
c), if a mass attack were successful, the same parties will simultaneously manage to
-hold positions a+b, above
-decry any (Republican) administration as not doing enough to prevent the attack
-hint (again) that maybe the attack may have been sponsored by our own government.

It is inconclusive. The most important word in your comment is "maybe"...
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

He had them. The question is how many and was he making them?
Remember the 500 Mustard Gas Warheads we recovered in late 2005 (or was that early 2006?)?

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

I don't remember this. I remember that Polish troops found a dozen or so warheads in 2004 that were initially thought to be mustard gas, but were in fact not. Are you referring to a different discovery?

Because those turned out to be pre-1991 weapons deteriorated beyond use.
Or are you talking about something else?

Which were not deteriorated beyone all use, btw. The fact that they were no long as potent as they were when we initially gave them to him does not mean that they still could not have killed thousands.

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

those weapons were "limited to no use." Saddam would have been better off using an uzi and a box full of hand grenades.

Would you attend a conference with 1000 other people where just 1 of those warheads on in the same room with all of you?

Mustard Gas takes centuries to break down completely if it isn't disposed of correctly. While it may be of "limited use" a cupful of the stuff could still kill 100 people just as completely as a teaspoon could 30 years ago.

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

in my backyard. Given the description by those who examined them, I'd rather have a cupful of whatever was in those rockets tossed at me than a hand grenade, though, and no one calls the latter a WMD.

I actually grew up with old mustard gas munitions, along with DDT, buried (for all intents and purposes) in my backyard.

http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npl/nar1396.htm

Don't go fishing in Triana, Alabama.

We have that he possessed chemical weapons is that we gave them to him. And then had people on the ground watching him use them in order to account for them all.
We haven't accounted for all of them. Where are the rest? Did he have his own production programs? At one point, yes. Did they actually produce anything? We don't know. If they did, where is it? But more importantly, Where are the weapons we Know he had?

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

In fact his Nuclear and BioChem programs were much more advanced than what the pre-Desert Storm intel estimated.
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"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison

That they we didn't find them after a year's worth of warning to Saddam that we were coming in doesn't mean they weren't there before we invaded, either.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

that would depend on whether having U.S. troops there would increase or decrease the liklihood of both staying there and spreading here. I know the policy on debating the Iraq war here, so I'll keep my opinion on that to myself.
I like this community too much to get blammed after only a couple of days commenting, having spent so much time lurking.

I know the policy on debating the Iraq war here, so I'll keep my opinion on that to myself.
I like this community too much to get blammed after only a couple of days commenting, having spent so much time lurking

Nice try, partner. Nice try.

Believe it or not, we debate the Iraq war a whole, whole lot here - and I can name several Contributors right off the top of my head who either think it is a losing cause now, or thought the decision to go in was a bad one in the first place.

Just engage the gray matter, avoid the talking points, and make a coherent argument, and you can debate the Iraq war all you want.

I've been lurking for a really long time, and, if memory serves, it used to be off limits to oppose the Iraq war here. I really do want to follow the rules here, unlike some of my less considerate comrades who feel comfortable putting their feet up on their host's new coffee table. Thanks for the green light.

It's just certain Ways that the War has been "discussed" that are taboo. Follow the guidelines in the post above and you should be good to go.

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

aQ will go back to their ancestral home lands and the violence in Iraq will stop. The only thing standing between the Democrats and world peace whirled peas is Shrub.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

If you buy into the ridiculous and hysterical "phosphorous = chemical weapons" and "DU munitions = nuclear weapons" assertions often seen coming from the left, nitric acid would indeed have to qualify as a WMD just by itself.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

...just a cosmetic, but the phosphorus on tracer rounds, or the depleted uranium in armor-piercing shells, is a WMD. Only in "reality-based" land :-)

Nitric Acid = dual use chemical. When weaponized, that equals a chemical weapon.

You have 31 barrels of the stuff laying around your house, along with artillery shells? Arguing that having a dual use chemical in enormous quantities, along with bombmaking materials, does not mean there's a chemical weapon being considered or created is like arguing that having a loaded magazine next to a rifle means that nobody can possibly get shot.

The 50 lb. bags of white powder. I am sure that they contained something harmless like Sweet N' Lo, though.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

It's an inhome High School Science Lab. After all, it's too dangerous to actually go To school these days. So now they're bringing school to the students.

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

almost exactly the same analogy below. My apologies.

You can go back and play with Stimpy now.

The over/under on you is 24:45...
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

I end the day w/ a laugh

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way."
John Paul Jones (letter to M. Le Ray de Chaumont,16 Nov.1778)

Are we saying that all weapons are weapons of mass destruxion? True, Nitric acid is a chemical, and any country (no matter how failed) is going to have chemicals. But there's a difference between Nitric acid and mustard gas. If Nitric acid is a weapon of mass destruction, than so too are AK-47s. Sure, you can make it explode, but that's not a poisonous effect. We need to stay clear with our arguments or the liberals will continue to call us morons.

On Phos and DU rounds...

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

According to BATF, an AK-47 with a thirty-round magazine plus one-in-the-chamber is considered to be a weapon of mass destruction.

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“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan

I mean, a nuclear weapon is clearly a weapon of mass destruction. Blammo - a million or 10,000 dead. And, in some cases, nerve gas or plutonium in a dirty bomb can be used as a weapon of mass destruction. But to say "nitric acid" - an industrial chemical - is a weapon of mass destruction is laughable. I know not all of you are chemists (I am) but don't let your reptilian brains lead you to hasty conclusions based on wishful thinking. There are lots of reasons, good reasons, to be in Iraq, but the presence of nitric acid isn't one of them.

you should be very familiar with dual-use chemicals. You should also know that pesticide manufacturing facilities, as long as the precursors are stored on site, can be switched over to produce chemical weapons on short notice and with very little effort.

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“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan

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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Saddam used that to his advantage in order to violate UN sanctions and to avoid detection by the UN inspectors.

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“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan

laying around that we found after invading. It must have been for his commercial reactors. Except he didn't have any.
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"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison

We've been through this many, many times at Redstate. But with so many new users, and against my better judgment, I believe they need to be brought up to speed.

Site C is a relatively small site as compared to the rest of the reservation, but the amount of material stored there is not insignificant. In addition to the nearly two tons of low-enriched uranium secured by the US, Site C was home to an additional 500 tons of yellowcake uranium,* This is a conservative estimate as initially reported by Coalition personnel from the US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA). Ironically, this initial figure is backed up by, of all organizations, Greenpeace.

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“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan

I hope you did not infer from my comment that I think you are a newbie Old Crow. I know better than that. :)

***

“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.” – Ronald Reagan

and I have the report here on my hard drive too.
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"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison

hate to say that?

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

And having this concatenated to the argument just undercuts the argument.

Saddam had all the time in the world and an underpopulated country to hide things in.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

to make the claim that Saddam had anything to do with the making of these weapons. So, until you can make that argument, I'd say yours is the one being undercut.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

to support the claim that Saddam had WMD is presumptuous. These weapons could have come from anywhere (including Saddam) but it's premature to assume Saddam manufactured these weapons. He very well may have, but we just don't know yet. So I would hold off judgment until the facts come in, that's all.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

This incident has no bearing on the Saddam manufactured WMD question whatsoever. There is no evidence presented linking this further out. The chemicals mentioned are ludicrously common. Especially common in a country with Iraq's industrial portfolio.

To join this to that without evidence of a link just muddies the waters.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

We were saying the same thing, just differently.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." -Mark Twain

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

Also without the proper handling equipment they would have killed themselves without getting far.

I think you still get all of the virgins if you are taken out in the production phase. Working safely does not seem to be much of a consideration for the Jihadists. Just look at the Palestinian rocket and bomb factories that blow up on a regular basis. I don't think any of them would pass an OSHA inspection.
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Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

Its much easier to build a bomb if you aren't worried about the people building it surviving. Matter of fact if you are willing to have people mill toxic materials up close and personal it becomes a lot easier.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Sounds to me as if they are trying to make picric acid, a high explosive similar to TNT. Normally benzene, nitric acid and mercuric nitrate compounds are needed, but zinc might do if you can't get mercury.

produce zinc and then react with the nitric acid to produce zinc nitrate. Then they would need to use zinc nitrate in the reaction. Given the lesser electronegativity of zinc vs mercury the reaction would be more difficult.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

Zinc oxide and nitric acid would react directly to make zinc nitrate.

0 for 2, J.

You would still need to show that Zinc Nitrate could be used to produce picric acid.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

and can you imagine Uday and Qusay playing with WMD in 2009 after Saddam died of a heart attack?

"During my lifetime, all our problems have come from mainland Europe, and all the solutions from the English-speaking nations across the world." - Thatcher

in your final sentence: "...I don't think..."

Thanks for your contribution. We will all now sing two choruses of "Happy happy joy joy".
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

Thankyou for the song. Now if you could identify how the evidence above falls under the covering convention to substantiate the claim made. If I've made a simple error in reading the peice or understanding the law I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

that will take out most my suburban neighborhood with a mix of stuff, NONE OF WHICH, is on any convention list.

The point is that aQ & friends are using deadly weapons, made from chemicals, with the chemicals being the active ingredient in the maiming and killing. I pop a bomb that is encased in nitric acid somewhere near you and, you'll probably just have to trust me on this, you won't care whether there was a treaty covering what just happened to you.

In other words, we're not discussing chemical/biological weapons treaties or conventions. We're discussing the use of weapons made - often quite crudely - from chemicals, using said chemicals to enhance the effect of the basic weapon.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

mbecker908 > In other words, we're not discussing chemical/biological weapons treaties or conventions.

Sorry, I’m not being clear. I am and have since my first post, been discussing the actual text of the piece above. The title is “More chemical weapons found in Iraq” and at the end it says “So, the bad guys are making chemical weapons in Iraq...chemical weapons are classified by the UN as WMDs”

This is different from a claim about making conventional weapons. The piece is quite specific about ‘classification’, not merely about harmful effect.

This does not make what was found any less bad. But the piece could talked about “a bomb-making factory” but it did not. All I’m asking is if the specific claims in the piece, which are very specific, are substantiated by either a reading of what is evidenced or supplementary information we do not have.

that should have been TiC rather than FiM...

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

Nitric acid is a chemical.

It is used as a weapon.

It becomes a chemical weapon.

Put simply: HNO₃ + bomb = chemical weapon.

This is similar to the terrorists (sorry, you call them "insurgents") exploding canisters of chlorine, using it as a chemical weapon.

I contain chemicals, and if I pick up a knife and kill someone, chemicals were responsible. Ergo: I am a chemical weapon.

Nitric acid is an industrial chemical, and there are doubtless many others in Iraq, in canisters and otherwise - please quit trying to make us conservatives seem stupid by associating us with such foolish logic.

but I'm absolutely convinced now that you're NOT a "smart weapon".
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

when I read this comment, I hate blowing stuff out my nose and all over the pewter...

You are on a roll!

Well done is better than well said. —Benjamin Franklin

Nitric acid is a nasty chemical to make contact with, like caustic soda (drain cleaner) or sulfuric acid (battery acid). But "It is used as a weapon"? Is it? Are there any instances? It's not a gas like chlorine. What it is used for is making explosives, and I've suggested upthread that what was found here was just what you'd need for making picric acid.

First Zinc oxide is inert and soluble in nitric acid. They may be using it to fight Mr. Sun the main enemy in global warming but not as a weapons component.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

see the Ph.D. chemist comment.

Wouldn't it be easier to start with phenol ?
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

it would, if you can get it. Phenol itself is made from benzene.

there is an interesting idea for training Mr Sun on zinc oxide to beat global warming.

It may have been a while, and maybe no one will read it, but I still can't let this crap:
"Nitric acid is a chemical. It is used as a weapon. It becomes a chemical weapon."
Stand next to my post without comment. C4 is a chemical. C4 is used as a weapon. C4 certainly is not a chemical weapon. QED.

If you don't think that's good enough, I'll take it further. Using nitric acid as a "chemical weapon" -- as in, using nitric acid for its irritating effects within a weapon -- is laughable. For one thing, you'd have better luck with HCl (hydrochloric acid), draino, bleach, or myriad other chemicals which would be more harmful inside someone's lungs. For another even more important point, it would be far more effective to use nitric acid in manufacturing explosives. The explosives you could make with it would do more damage than the chemical on its own. And not just slightly more. A hell of a lot more. Anyone who knows enough about nitric acid to buy/steal that much of it would know this.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."
--John Stuart Mill

There are those who look on Dresden and Tokyo and Hiroshima as some of the greatest evils ever perpetrated by man. I look on them and thank the perpetrators for saving millions.

..."dual use." A few folks (*cough* VictorVodka *cough*) need to look that up.

Having to get that basic to make your explosives means the "real stuff" must be very hard to get. We'll know that victory is imminent when we learn that the terrorists are collecting pig manure or urine so they can extract saltpeter.

In Vino Veritas

at least all us old guys who had to take chemistry classes to get out of high school don't really need those instructions I'm confident that a quick trip to the lawn and garden section would provide me with all I need to blow something up.

Funny though, seems like it was a much safer world back when I could go to the local drug store and walk out with a couple of pounds of potassium nitrate or a vial of nitric acid without so much as a by your leave and I and many of my frieds thought that stealing mom's cotton balls from the bathroom to make nitrocellulose was just good clean fun - cigarette filters worked well too.

I like to shoot black powder weapons, but the storage and shipping restrictions have become such that it is almost impossible to get. I'm thinking I'm going to have to put a "slop jar" out in the garage or shed and start making my own saltpeter; there's always a way.

In Vino Veritas

Acrylic Fiber Manufacture
Circuit Board Manufacture
Electroplating
Iron and Steel
Machinery Machinery manufacturing
Semiconductors

Thats lifted from the hazardous materials manual. Argue with them not me.

As I said above if the terrorists have to homebrew they are down points with the clock running out.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

The truck was actually carrying explosives and gasoline; the gasoline was in barrels labelled Nitric Acid.

Although, those musta been some fancy barrels [carboys?]... since Nitric Acid dissolves most metals.

You're right, Sam ... we don't need to discuss how to nitrate things.

Of more concern are the recent violations of the Geneva Protocol ... which just shows that the enemy has no concern for human life or "civility." I'm talking about the use of Chlorine, another easily available commercial product. During WWI, a great-uncle went into the trenches with 150 of his buddies one day ... thanks to chlorine, only 28 came back out. That's why the Protocol was signed.

more like reporting fact.

The 31 barrels are not justification for this war, it's proof we need to stay...The reason for this war have been debated here many times, by rational people...it's obvious you just want to through gas and get a reaction to your own idiotic posts...ding, next.

" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln

laying out the different reasons for invading Iraq, and dingdingding is still ignoring them. Just one for now, try cash payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Just one, there's others but I figure I'll give them to you one at a time for digestion purposes. This first one is an indicator of Saddam's involvement in terrorism.

Oh what the hell, I'll throw in another one, Saddams thwarted attempt to assassinate Bush 41. Granted a Republican and so it doesn't matter to you, but can you imagine the squeals if it had been Clinton. I wonder if Bill would have gone with his BVD's up or down?

"a man's admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him". Tocqueville

if you mean the chlorine bombs in Iraq. In that case they're trying to make their explosives more deadly by adding chlorine so that it injures people.

I'm no chemist, but I don't expect that the chlorine adds much as an explosive.

Are these chlorine bombs "WMD". Based on the results of their use to date I'd say they are not.