The Hawaiian Good Luck Sign
and other tales from a stronger age
By streiff Posted in War — Comments (41) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
Being a prisoner of war or internee is tough. As one man interviewed for Paul Brickhill's classic account of World War II PW resistance, "The Great Escape", said, the difficulty was in the indeterminate nature of the imprisonment.
It is doubly tough when you are held by people who could kill you for grins or hold you for a very long time. Still, you are a member of the Armed Forces and the credo of "Duty, Honor, Country" takes on a whole new significance when upholding them could get you or your comrades killed. But if they aren't upheld under those circumstances then they are little more than empty posturing.
You may not be able to escape but resistance is always possible.
The crew of the USS Pueblo was taken in international waters by one of the most brutal regimes on the planet. They were held for 11 months, suffered cruel hardships, kept the faith, and resisted at every step. Most famously through the use of the "Hawaiian Good Luck Sign" in all photographs.
When TIME magazine ultimately spilled the beans on the true meaning of the sign, the offenders were severely beaten but all propaganda photos stopped.
During the Vietnam War, Jeremiah Denton blinked out the word T-O-R-T-U-R-E in Morse Code when he was interviewed at a news conference.
You may be in captivity but your enemy can never take away your ability to resist. Only you can do that.
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Soldiers would either make an exemplar of themeselves through valor, or they would be made exemplar by being cut down in their cowardice.
These people are anti exemplars.
It looks like this will be a whitewash, with everyone smiling and saying this is the way POWs should behave. Now the head of the British Navy has agreed that the POWs did nothing wrong, and that they behaved with a "lot of courage". Quote below:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=3RNSDG0LWKLKXQFIQM...
Navy Head defends captured soldiers
The head of the Royal Navy has today strongly defended the conduct of the 15 British personnel during their 13 days in captivity in Iran.
Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, The First Sea Lord, said that he believed they had behaved with "considerable dignity and a lot of courage" during their time in Iranian hands.
He said that "confessions" made by some of the group - including the only woman, Leading Seaman Faye Turney - appeared to have been made under "a certain amount of psychological pressure".
In an interview with BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Admiral Band strongly rejected criticisms that the sailors and Marines surrendered too easily to the Iranians and were too eager to co-operate with their captors.
As the 15 continued their debriefing by senior officers at the Royal Marines Base at Chivenor, north Devon, said accusations they "surrendered first and apologised later" were "extremely unfair".
"I would not agree at all that it was not our finest hour. I think our people have reacted extremely well in some very difficult circumstances," he said.
I wonder if the TIME braintrust felt any twinge of guilt once they discovered they'd exposed captured Americans to physical abuse.
Sadly, it wouldn't surprise me if the TIME braintrust instead felt a silent-but-smug sense of amusement, even satisfaction.
"Who will stand/On either hand/And guard this bridge with me?" (Macaulay)
or otherwise endangers our troops (if I ever get a hold of him)...
"It's the enemedia." -- Fred Nerks
It was such a sickening sight to see those British prisoners carry on like they just spent a week in Disneyland. Britain has such a proud military history, but I would be ashamed to be a Brit right now.
These type of images we're seeing are a result of a people who no longer hold their country in high esteem. Once a country has lost that, they become a nation full of spineless cowards who only look at their country as feeding trough.
"Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must collectivize the nation because the people are so rich. "
William F. Buckley, Jr.
> It was such a sickening sight to see those British prisoners carry on like they just spent a week in Disneyland.
I agree, and think that's a key point. Some people have claimed that the prisoners might have been acting under threat, and so didn't really mean it. But I've known people who were controlled by violence, and those prisoners didn't show any signs of it. The controlled people never act that happy and care free when their bully is around. They might act somewhat happy if the bully expects them to, but it is always very controlled and careful because they know that one word or gesture the bully doesn't like can be an excuse for violence. So even if the Iranians ordered the hostages to look happy, it would have looked different because they would have known that every word might be their last.
So while they no doubt knew their freedom and lives were in danger, I don't see any reason why these POWs had to behave so differently from the way POWs in past wars did. If they were tightly controlled and believed they were under immediate danger, then they could have let their fear and caution show that to the world. If they were more lightly controlled and under less danger, then there is no reason to come out with spontaneous apologies and praise which the captors didn't even ask for.
I remember searching for these guys during DESERT STORM. They were captured and beaten with bats and iron bars by the Iraqis yet didn't talk, and were in rough shape because of their resistance. The Brit Code of Conduct, was at the time of this conflict, as strict as ours. I don't know if changes have been made.
Complicating factors for both countries are who gets resistance training (I doubt the UK Navy does, I know the SAS and Paras do). In our military, many of the Guard troops have not had resistance training, even though they are in high-risk-of-capture roles these days. The training used to be limited to aviators, SEALs, Rangers, Marine Recon, and other selected special forces. Clearly the scope needs to be widened.
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"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." -- James Madison
The "Final Confession" of the crew of the USS Pueblo shows that determined POWs can use the English language to show a confession was forced by torture and threats of death. Here are a few quotes:
... The absolute truth of this bowel wrenching confession is attested to by my fervent desire to paean the Korean People’s Army Navy, and their government and to beseech the Korean people to forgive our dastardly deeds unmatched since Attila. I therefore swear the following account to be true on the sacred honor of the Great Speckled Bird.
...Our first stop was Hawaii where I visited the kingpin of all provocateurs, including spies. None other than Fleet General Barney Google... He talked haltingly with me but persuasively about our forthcoming mission. "By God, Bucher, I want you to get in there and be elusive, spy them out, spy out their water, look sharp for signs of electronic saline water traps. You will be going to spy out the DPRK. By the sainted General Bullmoose we must learn why they are so advanced in the art of people’s defense."
...In so doing we had traversed Operation Areas Mars, Venus, and Pluto so named because like the planets, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is really far out.
...As we went about detecting this valuable information, particularly the oceanic salinity, density, ionic dispersion rate, humpback whale counts, both low and high protoplasmic unicellular uglena and plankton counts. This information was of the highest value to our own scientists for the development of war mongering at sea when no one was looking.
...In summation, we who have been rotating upon the fickle finger of fate for such long languid months give our word to the Great Speckled Bird that we will heretofor in all sincerity cleanse ourselves of rottenness and vituperations. We solemnly await our return to our loved ones so that the fickle finger can be replaced by the rosy fingers of dawn and salvation. So help me, Hanna.
The POWs in the Hanoi Hilton would do whatever they could to take a dump on their captors. There was one who bowed at everything he could to let the world know he was under duress.
Senator McCain was beaten for four days for his refusal to go along. Admiral Stockdale, lasted his entire stay without caving.
At every turn they could they refused to help their enemies.
Now we have people that seem overjoyed to help. I don't begrudge them their happiness, I only hope it lasts.
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"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
that the British are not at war with Iran? Nor are we at war with Iran. There is no need for you all to go matcho-military. I love it. The loudest half of you are probably chicken hawks like Bush and Cheney. There was a border confusion, or there was an internal Iranian issue that lead a Republican Guard faction to take the Brits. The troops involved were held for a time and released. What would you have had the US do if fifteen Mexican army troops wandered over our border? For God's sake people, this wasn't a battle. The Brits didn't have any secrets to hold out. They were pawns in a chess game. If you guys had your way, hang nails would lead to open heart surgury. Do you guys even know that Iran sent troops to help us in Afganistan? Al-Quida are Sunni extremists; Iran is mostly Shite. See - common enemy. If we would just sit down and talk to them, we might have a lot in common. Shhesh - if you guys would try using your brains instead of your muscles, we might just get out this mess.
complimented on one's muscles. In fact, if you buy my video "One Second Abs and a Bud", you can see how I developed mine.
During the times when I'm not working on the physique, reality does intrude. Seizing other countries' naval vessels outside of one's territorial waters is an act of war. That doesn't mean you go to war. It does mean that your negotiations point to that and other escalating costs as an incentive for resolution.
Of course, you might prefer the great disco era video "Hostages - 444 Days and a Bribe" produced by Jimmy Carter. We don't.
To show why voting conservative is vital
______________________________
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
you sound?
Jeez!
_________________________________________
The ultimate determinant in the struggle now going on for the world will not be bombs and rockets but a test of wills and ideas-a trial of spiritual resolve: the values we hold, the beliefs we cherish and the ideals to which we are dedicated.-Reagan
would have been very different, and your definition of war would no doubt have been met. The Iranian act was an act of war. And, just a minor logic point, but no countries are at war when the first act of war occurs. You really shouldn't overlook this minor logic point, because it kind of negates your entire argument, based as it is on the principles not being at war.
And for the record....Iran declared war on us in 1979, and has never rescinded that declaration.
As to your Mexican argument... If the Mexican state was a well-known sponsor of terrorism, and took US sailors captive in International waters, there would indeed be a punative issue at hand.
The argument was never that we should have declared war over this. The argument was that Britain should have taken action beyond mere talk, and the British captives should have on the whole acquitted themselves better.
The Pueblo crew, including Blucher, deserve medals for their resistance. The captured Brits were actually far more capable of offering resistence than the Pueblo crew was, yet they did not. And the icing on the cake was the release photo showing only four (one in the back row) stoic detainees, while the rest of them looked like Bozos.
Face is a very important concept in the Middle East, and the Brits lost it.
Pueblo was taken, and our sailors used for propaganda photo ops.
Our guys stuck it out, and stuck it to the Koreans at every turn-even if that meant risking being beaten.
I don't think you will find any pictures of the Peublo sailors yucking it up with their captors, or shaking hands with their captors or any Korean leaders.
Have any of you noticed that the British are not at war with Iran? Nor are we at war with Iran. There is no need for you all to go matcho-military.
l-Quida are Sunni extremists; Iran is mostly Shite. See -We weren't at war with North Korea in 1968 or with Iran in 1979. I did a search of out site and you apparently are the only person who thinks anyone else thinks we or the Brits are at war with Iran. That's quite a chapter in the history of dumbassery. Congratulations.
I love it. The loudest half of you are probably chicken hawks like Bush and Cheney.
How original. And hurtful. Oh, we are humiliated.
There was a border confusion, or there was an internal Iranian issue that lead a Republican Guard faction to take the Brits.
So hostage taking is fine with you. How very civilized Chas. But confirming of what we already know about the gutless types that have never found an outrage they can't accept.
The troops involved were held for a time and released.
Perhaps the first true statement you've posted.
What would you have had the US do if fifteen Mexican army troops wandered over our border?
They do cross over our border regularly, chump. We leave them alone.
For God's sake people, this wasn't a battle.
And because of that the Brits will lose more troops as prisoners, or they will move so far from the frontier that they might as well go home.
The Brits didn't have any secrets to hold out.
You don't know that.
They were pawns in a chess game.
Wow, great insight. You should get a job at State Department. Or better yet read other stories on this subject on the frontpage.
If you guys had your way, hang nails would lead to open heart surgury.
Whatever works.
Do you guys even know that Iran sent troops to help us in Afganistan?
Simply false. In fact, Iran is known to harbor several hundred al Qaeda refugees from Aghanistan, including several of the top leadership who survived the 2001 war. Zaqarwi was given transit through Iran to get to Iraq. Iranian arms have been tied to the deaths of US troops, and yesterday, British troops.
This much is clear, Chas. Other than being a fairly dim bulb you obviously haven't followed the story enough to comment, you haven't followed our discussion enough to comment on what we think, and your comment has nothing to do with this thread.
Don't come back.
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." -- Rudyard Kipling
Living in the great South West, and on mountain STANDARD time (AZ doesn't do DLST), Chas you were gone before I got to play with you. I'm still not even halfway thru my first coffee. This is aggravating.
We need to modify the harpooning policy so everybody at least gets a chance to play with the good ones. It's only fair.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
The good news is that the prisoners weren't tortured.
The biggest threat Iran made against the prisoners was 7 years in jail, although some prisoners "heard weapons being cocked behind them and feared the worst". The prisoners said they were "blindfolded, bound, kept in isolation, and that they were in Iraqi waters.
In another quote, the prisoners explain why they didn't fight back, why "We made a conscious decision not to engage the Iranians and do as they asked".
Quotes below:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL3169193320070406
The 15 British sailors and marines seized by Iran in the Gulf said they were blindfolded, bound, kept in isolation and warned they faced up to seven years in jail.
"We were blindfolded at all times and kept in isolation from each other," Lieutenant Felix Carman said.
In an agreed statement, the military personnel said they were told that if they did not admit they had strayed into Iranian waters, they faced seven years in prison.
"We were interrogated most nights and given two options. If we admitted that we had strayed, we would be back on a plane to the UK pretty soon. If we didn't, we faced up to seven years in prison," they revealed.
They heard weapons being cocked behind them and feared the worst.
After their arrest in the Gulf, the sailors and marines were taken to a prison in Tehran. "We were blindfolded, our hands were bound, we were forced up against a wall," they said in their statement.
They insisted they had been arrested in Iraqi waters and said that in captivity they suffered "constant psychological pressure."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533069.stm
Royal Marine Captain Chris Air said it became apparent that opposing their captors was "not an option."
"If we had, some of us would not be here today, of that I am completely sure," he said.
"We realised that had we resisted there would have been a major fight, one we could not have won and with consequences major strategic impacts.
"We made a conscious decision not to engage the Iranians and do as they asked," he said.
"Have you noticed how stupid you sound?" - c17wife
"That's quite a chapter in the history of dumbassery." - streiff
Am I missing something, or did RS loosen it's policy on foul language?
"Let me now take a more comprehensive view, & warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party, generally."
George Washington
dipsticks!
" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln
Whether you agree with the poster's comments or not, there's no reason to use foul language.
"Let me now take a more comprehensive view, & warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party, generally."
George Washington
"Let me now take a more comprehensive view, & warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party, generally."
George Washington
At the rate you're going, you will be the one in the air before long.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
And before you shout 'double standard': yup, there is, nope, we don't care about your reaction to that, nope, we don't care about your reaction to our reaction, yadda yadda.
Glad we could settle that for you.
Moe
PS: By the way? Don't try to enforce standards around here. You are now being explicitly told that you don't have the authority to do so.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
Go F*ck yourselves.
If you're going to break the very rules you're appointed to enforce, this place is a sham, and I don't need to be here.
Now, you can ban me.
"Let me now take a more comprehensive view, & warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party, generally."
George Washington
You can donate via PayPal.
What, you think fetish bannings come free? We have expenses, dude.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC.
Idiot. And one with no patience and very thin skin. For a moby.
And, if you're still reading mp, feel free to take my "idiot" comment personally. It was meant that way.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
I can't speak for Streiff or C, but I don't think it was foul...and quite honestly, some of the BS posts that have been hitting RS lately deserve a lot worse...try to keep in mind..we are all guests...period.
" in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years."
Abe Lincoln
One of the best things about this board vs. others, be they conservative or liberal, is the no tolerance policy on abusive language.
I don't know who streiff is. If the rules don't somehow apply to him/her, I'd like to know why. I don't mean to cause a stir - I'm just pointing something out, because I think his comment was out of line.
I don't agree with the poster's comments either - I think the Brits acted in a shameful manner - but I didn't resort to calling the poster names.
"Let me now take a more comprehensive view, & warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the Spirit of Party, generally."
George Washington
don't read most my stuff. Or anything Tbone writes.
Pointing out that an idiot is indeed an idiot is not "name calling" it's just speaking truth to the powerless.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
From John Derbyshire at NRO - John's a Brit by the way...
[hostage]"On arrival at London Heathrow, we were given the news that four UK servicemen and a civilian interpreter had been killed in Iraq. We would like to pass on our thoughts and condolences to the families of those who died serving their country."
[Derb] Oh, I am sure those families appreciate your concern—given that their loved ones were killed by an IED very likely assembled in Iran and shipped across the border by Iranian soldiers, while you were yukking it up with Li'l Sqinty and his pals.
Pretty well sums it up for me.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
Since I am in the Air Force and agree with all my brethren- am I a chickenhawk as well? Or do only liberals who don't serve able to discuss national security issues? Or should only those who have been in the military have a right to an opinion? It is so confusing trying to follow liberal logic..
United States Air Force
http://airforcepundit.blogspot.com
"Only you can do that."
That is absolutely true. However, when your country's political leadership and your chain of command are cowards, as is clearly evidenced by the orders to stand down and not fire on the Iranians and the comments to the effect that the "hostages" were doing exactly what they should be doing, what can you expect.
Almost no Lance Corporal will exhibit characteristics they do not see in their NCO's and officers. My son told me about one of his 1stSgts and how his entire Company was absolutely scared to death of the guy. Sometime later we were discussing going into combat and I asked him about 1Sgt Diaz. "We would follow that man into Hell."
That would appear to be lacking in this particular CoC. All the way up.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.