Rumors Swirling

By krempasky Posted in Comments (34) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

Well, PoliPundit's got it. Powerline's got it. So here's the rumor: Over on the SwiftVets site, a poster named "NavyChief" led with this:

Okay, folks.

We got it finally. We have the Former Secretary of the Navy who stated, "Yes, Kerry did receive an Other Than Honorable Discharge".

Stay tuned for more...

Now to MAKE THE MEDIA AND CONGRESS LISTEN!

Go my brothers and sisters -- spread the news to everyone!!!!

- Chief

Here's what we know: "NavyChief" is, in fact, well tied to the core group of SwiftVets. As far as an October surprise, I know for a fact this is something they've been trying to document since July - and they've hardly been slow-walking it. I believe if they had it then, they would have released it immediately. So, let's wait and see...

PoliPundit's right - we don't need this to win. So get ready to work this weekend. Call your neighbors, call your local campaign office.

UPDATE: The original posting has been taken down from the SwiftVet forum, so we'll chalk it up to...well, we don't know what to chalk it up to. But there's nothing more to report at this point.


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Rumors Swirling 34 Comments (0 topical, 34 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »

I've been waiting to see if the SwiftVets were going to drop a bomb before Tuesday and if they have the goods, let's just say, it can't be good for Kerry. Recently, I went to a screening of "Stolen Honor" and there was a veteran there that spoke to the audience afterward about this.  I can't remember his name, but he was a classmate of John O'Neill at Annapolis and flew helicopter missions in support of the swift boats in the same operating area as Kerry.  Don't think he knew JFK himself, but knew a bunch of the other guys, his time in Vietnam actually overlapped a little with Kerry's.  Anyway, he mentioned that there was some question about Kerry's discharge that was suspicious and that it was being looked into.  Kerry, as you know, has not signed the form to release ALL of his records. He said there was something about there being a "convening authority" in relation to Kerry's discharge (which I took to mean a disciplinary board), and he said that was highly unusual.

I know that the term 'Convening Authority' is used to apply to military authority to conduct Courts Martials. There are three types of Courts Martials. General, Special and Summary Courts Martials in declining order of severity(or, there were then).

The type of courts martial dependend upon what charges were brought against a soldier/sailor. The more severe the charge, the more detailed the courts martial, the higher in rank (and organization) the convening authority.

If memory serves, officers of ALL services could only receive a General Courst Martial at that time. That meant a General or Flag Officer was the convening authority. Dishonorable Discharges could only be authorized by a General Courst Martial.

So . . . if something about Kerry's discharge in his record mentions 'convening authority' and states or intimates a review of some sort . . . hmmmmmm.......

You link to PoliPundit and Powerline and the anonymous "NavyChief" (who's post has been removed). And then they all link to the same anonymous posting. And then some more cross linking, and we call it "Rumors swirling"?!

Hate to say it, but Redstate doesn't have a very good batting average for breaking news (whatever DID happen to the WMD proof from CNS news?)

As the news and polls start looking worse and worse, I guess we'll see more and more of this.

To wrap yourself in fiction. What you don't see is how many people have been emailing us about this story.

So a bunch of emails--sounds definitive to me. I guess I'll wait for proof. I think the NY Sun ran a story about this a few weeks back and nothing seemed to come of it.

If I was in a paranoid state of mind, I could see how some military people, upset about Kerry's anti-war activities, could have put something in his file that was less than laudatory. I wonder, though,  if someone was discharged other than honorably, wouldn't they revoke his medals?

Why would someone have medals re-issued (as Kerry had done) if they had not been revoked?

Why would Carter have to issue him his "Honorable Discharge"?

Lots of questions...now maybe some answers!  

Remember, OTH (Other Than Honorable) were effectively a plea-bargain category to avoid a full court-martial.  Someone would accept one ONLY if they knew their goose was cooked in a full hearing.  

Kerry's camp is going to have to explain..."We never said he DIDN'T get an OTH...we just said what he has NOW is an HD"  

Of course, it all depends on what the "definition of IS IS", right?

Officers are subject to the same UCMJ as everyone else, however, most GCM convening authorities, usually a 2-star or better, reserve the right to punish officer to themselves. This effectively means that every officer who gets punished, gets punished by a general court martial or a Article 15/captain's mast by a general/flag officer.

GCM convening authorities are usually the people who are allowed to convene administrative boards.

I just can't believe that major news networks never investigated this. How many times has the guard story been revisited?!

I look on Kerry's website and his origianl enlistment paperwork is for the USN-R and its inactive....in my experience that was the Navy Reserves and requirred one weekend a month unless otherwise ordered by DoD. If I'm not missing something, it would seem that both Kerry and Bush signed up originally under same contractual agreements.

I didn't care much about the service of either men, but I do care about what Kerry's actions when he got back. That alone makes him the lowest form of human debri...in my opinion.

Here's the bottom line on Bush, Kerry, and Vietnam.  

Kerry fought; Bush didn't.

End of story.

Here's the bottom line on Bush, Kerry, and Vietnam

Kerry committed atrocities, and crimes against the US as well; Bush didn't.

End of story.

IFYPFY

billtrippe: "Here's the bottom line on Bush, Kerry, and Vietnam.  

Kerry fought; Bush didn't.  End of story."

Oh, but Bill, there are OTHER differences from this era (you must have been pressed for time...let me help you)

Kerry met with NVA and Viet Cong representatives while still an Officer in the Navy; Bush didn't

Kerry slandered the U.S. military by testifying to events OF WHICH HE HAD NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE; Bush didn't

Kerry received an Other Than Honorable discharge; Bush got an Honorable one

end of story?

So, when you say "troll" that is your way of declaring victory or something?  How lame.  Don't bother with the pre-adolescent silliness again, or I won't bother to respond.

Now, if you want to actually discuss what was said, I will offer this.  I look at Kerry's actions after Vietnam this way.  He came home and exercises the constitutional right to free speech he had just defended with his own life.

Respond with something reasonable, and be an adult about it, or don't bother.

I want to thank Rand Collins for his reasonable and adult response.  I don't agree of course, and will make the same comment here that I made in reply to the juvenile taunting offered by Seth A.

In other words, I look at Kerry's actions after Vietnam this way.  He came home and exercised the constitutional right to free speech he had just defended with his own life.

And we don't know anything about Kerry's discharge of course, so that is merely speculation.

Take your own advice if you want to participate here. A pedantic third grade post deserved a pedantic fourth grade reply.

He came home and met in secret with the enemy in Paris, violating the UCMJ and the Logan Act. That isn't exercising free speech. When is your boy going to go serve his time?

The bottom line on Vietnam is that Kerry was on the other side.

" . Kerry fought and Bush did not. End of story . ."

Welllll, nope.  Not quite.

Kerry fought (arguably) - reluctantly and briefly - then RAN.  He bugged out. Turned his back on his mates - and boogied.  

Sure Kerry paid his dues by paying the price. God knows at the rate Kerry kept wounding himself (in reality and in his mind)begging for Purple Hearts, he might have auto-destructed if he wasn't soon sent home.

And that was too bad for the war.  Because at the rate Kerry kept awarding himself medals for valor, if he had remained for maybe 1/3 of a full tour of duty - he might have won the damned war all by himself.  And I know, deep in my heart, that that is Kerry's 'Plan" for Iraq.

Bush was not ordered to Vietnam.

Wow!  What you MUST think of Clinton.

A man

From a 10/28/04 interview with Tom Brokaw...

Brokaw: Someone has analyzed the President's military aptitude tests and yours, and concluded that he has a higher IQ than you do.

Kerry: That's great. More power. I don't know how they've done it, because my record is not public. So I don't know where you're getting that from.

Hmmm...

Well if he released "everything" in his military records as they claim how is it not public?

Bush completed Air Force pilot training program, that alone makes him the man. You've got to be the cream of the crop to do that....

Pretty clever reply, I have to admit.  But Bush wasn't ordered to Vietnam because there was no chance he would be.  Bush checked the box to say he would not volunteer to go overseas.  He also got slotted into a Guard unit that was guaranteed to never go:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush
072899.htm

Men of Kerry's and Bush's generation all had to come to some decision about Vietnam and whether they would fight. I ask, who made the easier decision?

on her deathbed has to remind you to have integrity.

Too bad the adminition didn't work.

I have it on "good authority" that Kerry had previously asked her what make of car he should buy.  Her reply was: "Integra...Integra...Integra"

Sadly, she did not specify a color.

As Dobbs of WaPo found out when he tried to get the 100 documents from the Pentagon and got only 6. Read here for more detail.

I adore my Mom.  

That said, if my Mom's last words to me on her deathbed are: "Integrity, integrity, integrity"  then the last words she going to hear from me will be: "What the hell brought THAT on??"

You don't remind someone who is WEARING a hat to put one one before they go out in the cold!!

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-buzzcut.php?range=10%2F24%2F2004+-+10
%2F30%2F2004

Human Events Online has it big time. I believe it is true.  Here's the deal:  The voting public has a right to know about a candidate's background, good or bad.  He has never answered the important questions. The man is an enigma and we, the citizens of the United States, DESERVE the truth.  I gon't give a tinker's doodle what your political party is. We have rights too. We need to know what it is that John Kerry is hiding. Darn it. I wish people would stop acting so stupid. America first. Partisan politics comes way down the line.  If you don't have the information you can't cast an informed vote. If you don't care then you are a fool. The mainstream media is doing the American Public a grevious disservice. If they do not investigage this (and it is true) then they are guilty of treason too.

Kerry left country after four months. He left behind his crew to continue the remainder of their tours.

When he left early he made two life and death decisions. The first he made for himself to save his skin. The second he made for the guy who had to replace him.

In fact there were ANG units operating F-102s in Vietnam in Operation Palace Guard. Bush did volunteer for duty but was turned down because he did not have enough hours in type.

Kerry requested and was denied a deferment so he go study in France. When he was turned down he did the smart thing and volunteered.

The fact is, Bush volunteered to go over to Vietnam, regardless of what he checked when he initially signed up.

His commanding officers did not permit him to go, according to Col William Campenni (a ANG officer who served with Bush):

The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.

Source: Bush and I were Lieutenants

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14805

Now lets be honest about this "volunteering" for Vietnam business.  Many people "volunteered" because they didn't want to get drafted.   Kerry belongs in this group.

Is it a terrible thing to not want to be drafted in the war?  Not at all.  Is "volunteering", rather than waiting for the draft, a noble act? A qualified yes.

When the choice is between the draft, which will likely lead to a more dangerous assignment, and "volunteering" which will likely mean greater choice, and a lower probability of dangerous duty, signing up is a rational thing to do, not some selfless act of patriotism.

Regardless, the men in Vietnam, whether they were drafted or volunteers, deserve the respect of the American people.  I don't like bringing up this uncomfortable fact for men who put their life on the line for this country.  But those who "volunteered" when there were few options available should not use that as a weapon to browbeat those who did not have the chance to.

... not Palace Guard

[Engage brain then fingers.]

There is this wee little problem with the "He served, he didn't" argument. The implication is that Kerry willingly put himself in harms way. All the deferment issues aside, both served in the military. There isn't too much difference in serving in one place or the other if neither involve any risk of combat. Yet that isn't the spin the Kerry supporters put on it. Their clear implication is that Kerry decided to fly in the face of bullets and do his duty, Bush didn't.

The problem with that theory is that Kerry volunteered only for non-combat duties. When he signed up for Swiftboat duty, Swiftboats were not used for river patrol. He even admitted that he chose that because of the lack of combat. Source: Brinkley. It was after he signed up that strategy changed such that boats were used up river in dangerous waters.

Now I agree with you, that it is great and all for people to sign up. But we shouldn't paint the wrong picture...Kerry never volunteered to go into any combat situations, and once in combat he managed to high tail it back home ASAP.

If the roles had been reversed and Kerry never had to patrol in enemy waters (according to his wishes) and Bush got called up from his TANG unit and saw combat, would Bush's signing up for the TANG be any more noble or sacrificial than Kerry's? No.

hmmm . . . I perceive you have some association, past or present, with the U.S. NAVY.

No?

Regardless, thanks for the clarification.

Airborne Ranger infantry officer.

I know a lot of Navy folks aren't familiar with the term "Article 15".

Airborne (101st). Recondo (101st). Ranger (4-61). Pathfinder. Special Forces (4-64). Jungle Expert Officer.

. . . and not enough knee remaining to ump off the sidewalk with mty grandson.

. Bummer .........

 
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