Redstate

Now, I see the Josh Marshall quote - but where's the actual quote? Odd that Josh doesn't link to it.

If Coburn actually made those comments, then they are outrageous. Whether you like it or not, abortion is legal in this country. To advocate the death penalty for performing a legal procedure is outrageous.

Coburn should work on making abortion illegal first, and THEN advocate the death penalty for anyone who performs abortions.

Presumably, he wants to give the death penalty to the women who seek the abortion as well.

The quote doesn't even show up via Google News.  Color me unconvinced.

Freelunch: presumably you have no idea what you're talking about. In the history of the fight over abortion, the pro-choice side has repeatedly accused the pro-life side of advocating just that: death for the women. Only problem: not true. (I'm sure you can find some wacko who said that once, but you're smart enough not to fall for that)

Ray, I appreciate the hyperbole, but it doesn't really add anything. of course Coburn believes that abortion should be made illegal first. (I'm not even willing to grant that he said this until I see it. Seems an awfully lonely quote, pining for its context.)

There was no hyperbole in my post, and I did specifically qualify my statement with "if he said this"

krempasky:

Historically, in capital cases, the person who hires someone to engage in a capital crime is also engaged in a capital crime. If opponents of abortions don't advocate the death penalty for women who seek abortions while advocating it for those who perform it, then they are trying to make a remarkable change in American jurisprudence.

In part they do this because they know that abortion is not murder and has never been. They know that the simplistic bumper sticker is wrong. In part, they can still imagine that a relative of theirs may want to have an abortion and they don't want their relatives to be executed, or even punished, for it.

Freelunch: hardly. Perhaps, can you fathom a scenario in which pro-life advocates actually acknowledge the awful circumstance that women facing abortion actually find themselves? Is it within the realm of possibility that pro-life advocates start from the premise that a woman driven (or led, as the case may be) to abortion is granted the compassion and understanding that those very circumstances demand?

Only if you're willing to grant that pro-lifers are people too, and might care about women, I suppose.

But that said, the fact is that the prolife movement does not advocate for punishment for women. You can try to impute whatever motives you'd like - but you'd better try harder than this.

now wait just a minute - the quote is a fine-tuned statement designed to transmit cerain shades of meaning, but people far to teh right of Coburn know that the actual implied policy therein is completely  a pipe dream. I dont even think Coburn is far right enough to actually believe such a measure is neccessary, though he cerainly isn't above pretending otherwise to appeal to the fringe.

The skepticism is noted, and I will email Josh Marshall for verification. I hope though that you arent suggesting Marshall is inventing the quote.

"Seems an awfully lonely quote, pining for its context."

Not accusing anyone of anything...just waiting to see.

In part they do this because they know that abortion is not murder and has never been.

In my heart, I know freelunch is right.

Right.  Moving on.

The truth is that you've got your jurisprudence and history badly wrong.  There are two things driving the general decision on the part of most pro-lifers to not punish women who seek abortions:

First, there have been all manner of compassionate exceptions affecting punishment of killing throughout history.  Insanity, crimes of passion, manslaughter, etc.: it is simply false to pretend that intent and circumstance do not matter in these cases.  There is no reason that abortion, with its totally unique context, could not be construed to fit within a similar mitigating category; to do so would not inherently involve a concession to the pro-death crowd that asserts as you do -- that abortion is not murder.

Second, there are perfectly good pragmatic reasons for not seeking punishment of women.  Politically, it's a dumb move; many Americans will viscerally balk at it.  If accepting (for the sake of argument, here) a bit of intellectual inconsistency is the price of saving millions of infants slaughtered in the womb, that's an acceptable tradeoff in my book.

That's the reality, chief.  It's a perfectly reasonable stance; pretending that it constitutes a victory for your side is just self-blinding.

I hope though that you arent suggesting Marshall is inventing the quote.

Been burned enough times by pending earth-shaking revelations from the boy.  Trust level is low.

emailed him. Let us await the Context.

interesting aside. when i posted this Diary, I apparently didnt read it craefully enough. I somehow skipped the direct explicit mention of teh word "abortionist" and posted thinking he only alluded to them, not specifically labeled them as deserving of death. Only after re-reading the post post-submission did I realize the quote is far more direct.

Marshall has not, to my knowledge, ever invented a source (unlike, say, the curiously convenient personal anecdotes of Tom Friedman). He may be guilty of overselling his scoops, but I think he deserves benefit of the doubt. Ill bug him diligently for a citation, though - after all, he has Lexis access.

"couldn't find it on Google News" is not valid evidence of absence. "couldnt find it on Lexis-Nexis" is. Lets see.

I agree that women who have to consider whether they want to have an abortion are in a terrible position, whether that abortion is legal or not. What I disagree with is the idea that we can make abortion a capital crime for only one of the participants. I do agree that the reason it won't happen is that politicians are not that interested in political suicide.

I do not agree that my knowledge of jurisprudence or the history of law is wrong, but if you would be so kind as to point out any laws that said that murder included abortion or examples of capital crimes that allowed the person who sought the crime to go free, I would appreciate the correction.

I do not agree that my knowledge of jurisprudence or the history of law is wrong....

If you can't think of a single example in which murder goes unpunished for extenuating circumstances, or in which abortion was historically considered murder, then yeah, it's badly wrong.

No time to do your basic research for you, though.  Maybe someone else will.  Or maybe you can.

If you can't think of a single example in which murder goes unpunished for extenuating circumstances, or in which abortion was historically considered murder, then yeah, it's badly wrong.

I can think of examples of juries letting murderers off. I don't think that is what you are asking for. The legal definition of killing is not the legal definition of murder. When a person kills someone, the circumstances determine whether it is murder or not. There are no laws that I am aware of that define an action as murder but choose not to punish it.

I'm not the one who tries to equate abortion with murder. If those who do are willing to show that there is a historical precendent for it, I will listen to their evidence. Until then, I will look at the evidence I have. I am not aware of any legal codes that said that abortion was murder. I don't anticipate that you to be able to provide any, either, certainly not within Western jurisprudence, but I am willing to be corrected.

A Nexis search shows the following results for that quote:

The July 14 Roll Call cited the quote, with attribution, without context.

The actual AP article provides the following:

"I'm an American first and a Republican third or fourth," Coburn said in an interview with The Associated Press as he blamed "career politics" for most of the nation's woes, condemned pork barrel spending and outlined a plan to cut the nation's medical care costs.

His medical plan included allowing lower-cost drugs to be reimported from Canada, vowing to "bust up" what he says in a noncompetitive pharmaceutical market.

The 56-year-old Muskogee doctor set himself apart from other candidates. "My desire is not to be a U.S. senator. My desire is to change the Senate," he said.

Also running for the GOP nomination are former Oklahoma City Mayor Kirk Humphreys, Corporation Commissioner Bob Anthony and Jay Richard Hunt, a political newcomer. U.S. Rep. Brad Carson heads up a five-candidate Democratic field.

Coburn is traditional conservative, opposing abortion except in rare cases to save the life of the mother and advocating tax cuts and limited government.

On the death penalty, he said: "I favor the death penalty for abortionists and other people who take life."

He said he performed two abortions to save the lives of mothers who had congenital heart disease, but opposes the procedure in cases of rape.

"Under the mores we live under today, my lineage wouldn't exist," Coburn said, explaining that his great-grandmother was raped by a territorial sheriff.

Whether that's complete or not is an interesting, but unrelated question. Much as I think of Marshall as a partisan hack, strictly on the question of whether the AP reports Coburn saying that, he's right.