Redstate

It should be bipartisan.  It is sad that some people get called names for suggesting such a thing.  I am not saying that things could not have been handled differently.  I am saying that dismissing a Congressional report solely because it was written by Democrats is unbecoming.  It was written by Democrats because the Republicans refused to participate, and not because they had facts (they didn't; an investigation would produce the facts).  A consequence of refusing to participate denied subpeona power to the investigation.  That looks like obstruction.

In fact, the Democrats have been studying the election in many states, even states that Kerry took.  

is NOT what the country needs from Democrats - or ANY other politician.

Try as you might, you cannot disguise the real, banal, carping motivation behind Boxer and her fellow protestors.  They have no REAL issue to address here other than their adolescent-type pique over their continuing loss of power.  Their truely mendacious actions today serve no one but themselves - not even the Democratic Party that shunned them in droves.

I hope you are not suggesting that there is some mutated form of merit in Boxer's simply raising the issue for argument's sake.  Go back, again, and look at the map that shows how all the counties in America voted.  Look at it closely and try to explain how anyone could question the President's overwhelming approval.  

Democratic petulance, boorishness and thumb-sucking, breath-holding, wall-kicking malevolence about their latest massive REJECTION by the American electorate has provided the nation and the world with enough fun for the time being.  

The election is over.  The nation is at war.  Democrat machinations designed to disrupt our political and governmental processes, and undermine our national objectives are no longer tolerable.  We should see them for what they truely are:  Subversion.

And they should be treated as such.

But it is entertaining to watch the Democrats' circular firing squad.

I'm hoping that the fact that many of the Dem complaints with Ohio sound a lot like some of the Republican complaints in Washington State (except, you know, with a thousand-times smaller margin) gets some nice publicity.  

I think one big problem here is that Americans aren't really willing to spend the money that will be necessary to invest in election equipment.

In addition, not enough people are willing to serve as election officials--not as campaign workers, but as work-inside-the-polls election officials.

Finally, I think Virginia has a pretty good election system, and I've wondered why states with problems or issues over elections don't copy more from states that have relatively few problems.

and I am concerned with the integrity of the vote and the sentiment behind a recent letter to the editor "that the vote process worked fine because the Republicans won."  This is not a setiment that has any place in democracy.  Read the House Judiciary Report and come back prepared to discuss the documented merits of the issue.

If Bush supporters want to avoid the taint of illegitimacy on the administration, they should be at the forefront of investigations, not obstructing them as Blackwell as done by refusing to answer questions. Making fun of the integrity of the vote is unbecoming, and the principle is important.  

A better tactic would be to wholeheartedly encourage an investigation with subpoena power and then laugh when the investigation acquits the election.  There will always be doubt unless the truth is allowed to prevail.  If Republicans believe the truth is on their side, what do we have to lose?  

This is a farce.  I've been live blogging this Boxer Rebellion and it appears to be nothing more than a griping session.

The correct citation for the bit of fiction you reference is NOT, I say again NOT, the "House Judiciary Report." It is a report by a handful of liberal Democrats.

"You lost, it's time to MOVE ON."  

They seem to be complaining about Ohio, where a recount was done and it changed Bush's 100K+ vote margin by less than 1000 votes.  What does a letter to the editor have anything to do with the integrity of the vote, other than be a useful strawman?  The only 'taint of illegitimacy' here is the Democrats' inability to accept the outcome of the election.

"Count all the votes"-- until a Democrat has won.  Just like in Washington State.

You were an independent only a few days ago. You change affiliations quick.

it will be idiotarian?

and come back prepared to discuss the documented data. It's not about recounts, it's not about overturning an election, it's not even about exit polls.  It's about disenfranchisement and the principle of the integrity of the vote.

and read the report.  Then you will be prepared to discuss it intelligently-

I don't choose to get my news from the National Enquirer and I don't choose to get my public policy information from this bunch of stooges.

The very fact that the majority of the committee didn't sign on de facto labels it as bogus.

I think there are some important reforms that could help improve the voting process.  That being said, the fascination with Ohio turns this into a partisan issue instead of what should be a bipartisan effort.  The Democrats could achieve their stated goal (electoral reform) by focusing on states and races that they won to gain legitimacy.  For example, they could demand a revote in Washington state or object to the Electoral Votes of states that Kerry won.  It is unfortunate that Ohio has become the focal point because the good aspects of the focus on election problems is being missed.

These problems happen in many states in many elections, why did Democrats choose Ohio to be their sacred cow... right now it smells like partisanship.

then don't be a shill.

Label your reference honestly. That's all. It is not a report from the House Judiciary Committee. That's a fact. Read the title yourself.

is because of the grostesque level of fraud there.

So naturally they concentrate on OH where they also have the added benefit of dusting up the guy who in all probablility will be the next governor of the state and future senate candidate.

Messed up the link--here's what I meant.

It should be bipartisan.  It is sad that some people get called names for suggesting such a thing.  I am not saying that things could not have been handled differently.  I am saying that dismissing a Congressional report solely because it was written by Democrats is unbecoming.  It was written by Democrats because the Republicans refused to participate, and not because they had facts (they didn't; an investigation would produce the facts).  A consequence of refusing to participate denied subpeona power to the investigation.  That looks like obstruction.

In fact, the Democrats have been studying the election in many states, even states that Kerry took.  

Anyone else concerned about this establishing a potentially dangerous precedent?  We know it's not going anywhere -- this time.  But what if, in the future, one party holds Congress, while the other wins the Presidency?  The party of Congress could use evidence of vote fraud to take control of the election in just such a way as the Democrats have forced today.

I would've thought that members of Congress would respect the separation of powers enough that this wouldn't happen, but the Democrats seem to have proved me wrong by their very actions today.

races in the 80s. The Dems in the House seated their boy despite the vote.

we might not like an action like that, but that's one of the constitutional protections that's built in.

I might not agree with what the Democrats are doing today, but I believe that they are carrying out a constitutional check on presidential elections. Congress should have final authority to determine the votes for president and VP. Someone has to, and I think they're best suited to do so because they will be accountable to the federal electorate for making what is a federal decision.

It is still separation of powers; what we're seeing is checks and balances--in several layers. The federal government is able to be a check on the states, and Congress is a check on the executive. If the people don't like it, then they can rebuke Congress in the next election.

While I am still sympathetic to election reform in general, I think you need to admit that some of their motivation is partisan.  It is Ohio's EVs that are being challenged.  They didn't pick Ohio at random or because it had the closest margin or because it had the highest level of allegations.

If they introduced a state bill in Ohio (since elections are a state issue) with a list of remedies so these problems didn't happen next time, I would applaud them (even if I didn't agree with some of the resolutions).  Instead they are grandstanding in the U.S. Congress to get attention.  I know it happens on both sides, and it bugs me when either side does it.

You gotta link to something if you're going to refer to the 80s...  Half of us were not of age yet.  Which races and congressmen?

Not my fault.

I just hope that at some point the data gets discussed instead of the debate going on right now on C-SPAN about motives.

It is clearly I who looks like the south-bound end of a north-bound horse in this interchange. My apologies.

That's why I think what is going on right now (on C-SPAN) is the wrong venue and is more a partisan ploy than an effort to accomplish something.

Every election has spoiled ballots, problems at the voting booth, etc.  How do we minimize those problems while not relaxing controls so much that fraud becomes widespread.  Balancing those two virtues (ease of voting vs. integrity of voting) is the crux of the issue.  But we can make some reforms that should get us closer to an ideal system.

for the reason Boxer said, that it couldn't hurt to talk about it for a little while, and because media attention has been strange.  For example there were three main stories on December 13, but Petersen dominated the media yet again.  I think they figured a debate on the floor could not be ignored.

It is intellectually lazy to allow party affiliation to determine personal views without fairly examining all sides.  Some people are gloating that only 32 congressmen voted "to perpetuate a completely fraudulent story."  If a Republican had voted, he would have been labeled a traitor.  If the  vote had broken along party lines, it would have been labeled a partisan ploy.  Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I expect the Democrats believe the vote demonstrated a committment to bipartisanship with enough symbolic votes against to send the message that the integrity of the vote and the effective disenfranchisement of blacks is serious and needs to be addressed.

is NOT what the country needs from Democrats - or ANY other politician.

Try as you might, you cannot disguise the real, banal, carping motivation behind Boxer and her fellow protestors.  They have no REAL issue to address here other than their adolescent-type pique over their continuing loss of power.  Their truely mendacious actions today serve no one but themselves - not even the Democratic Party that shunned them in droves.

I hope you are not suggesting that there is some mutated form of merit in Boxer's simply raising the issue for argument's sake.  Go back, again, and look at the map that shows how all the counties in America voted.  Look at it closely and try to explain how anyone could question the President's overwhelming approval.  

Democratic petulance, boorishness and thumb-sucking, breath-holding, wall-kicking malevolence about their latest massive REJECTION by the American electorate has provided the nation and the world with enough fun for the time being.  

The election is over.  The nation is at war.  Democrat machinations designed to disrupt our political and governmental processes, and undermine our national objectives are no longer tolerable.  We should see them for what they truely are:  Subversion.

And they should be treated as such.

based on actual vote percentages comes out various shades of purple. Bush has the lowest approval rating of any incumbent president. There are real issues and substantial data to address but who shall address them?  The Republicans refuse, the Democrats are dismissed as sore losers, the Greens and Libertarians are dismissed as irrelevant.  We simply cannot have another election where thousands and thousands are disenfranchised.  Can we not step away from political rancor for just a moment and examine the data dispassionately?

Should meaningful election reform requiring proof of citizenship and positive voter ID be enacted nationwide, the Democrat Party may well vanish into the dust bin of history.

The ONLY way 'thousands upon thousands' might have been disinfranchised in the last election was by their preferences being overwhelingly rejected by their fellow voters.

You really don't want to try to make the argument that what happened to the Democratic voting sector' in America resulted from anything other than its nation-wide rejection.

Democrats and their ideals, visions and preferences have been roundly rejected in America.  That occurred not by some illegal or immoral Republican sleight of hand, or by voter repression etc.  The schtick presented by the Democratic Party to America is/was just as unsavory as the candidate it nominated to carry its banner.

Get over it.

What issues need to be addressed post-election, that have not already been addressed?

Bring them up - if you can.  But don't try tying them to Democratic electoral rejection. Democrats need to get down to the business of being Americans foremost - Democrats hind most.

Get the message.  America is NOT buying Democrat b.s. any longer.  Putting the nation's well-being ahead of the Party is the best (and probably only) means left to Democrats to begin recovering even an iota of the credibility and legitimacy they squandered over the past three decades - and longer.

Bark. Stammer. Howel. Wail. Stomp the Feet.  Hold the Breath. Curse. Make Obscene Gestures. Do anything that comes to mind that might gain a little attention.

No one cares!

Democrats have NO ISSUES.

They have only complaints.  And there is an abundance of odor about them.

- Cheers -

Democrats have attempted to taint the results of the last two elections by waving around claims of "disenfranchisement" while producing precious few specifics and not a soul who was actually kept from voting.

Meanwhile, it seems to more than a few of us out here in flyover country that the Democratic party's interest seems to be more in line with destroying, not enhancing, the integrity of the ballot.

I think it not unreasonable, for example, to expect a voter to be a citizen. To be a registered voter. To be able to document his or her identity. To be alive. To vote only once per election. To vote between the time the polls open & when they close. To vote without monetary compensation. And I think the active duty military should be afforded every reasonable opportunity to vote.

One gets the impression that these are controversial concepts to Democrats.

The state of the Democrat Party, but for a few small blips on the radar, has been in steady decline since the assasination of John F Kennedy and the elevation of Jimmy Carter.

Anti-Americanism doesn't play well since September 11, 2001 and the voters have soundly rejected socialism at the polls.

'Activist Judges' are the liberals last refuge and they should be the next target in our sights.  Impeach them if necessary.

Maybe you should have asked some Republicans to join the House Judiciary investigation and collect some evidence.  Meanwhile, there were plenty of souls who attended the three hearings and signed affidavits attesting to their effective disenfranchisements among other problems.

The mutual brushes of political investive are nonproductive.  From my vantage point as an independent, the Democrats and Republicans have an awful lot in common.

so this anti-Democrat rant means nothing to me.  If the Democrats are wrong, let a public evaluation of the data in the report of the House Judiciary website, prove them so and embarrass them.

As an American who refuses to be defined by party labels, I do not see what could possibly be wrong with having all the data out in the open.

Again, I invite everyone to read the report and come back prepared with an intelligent rebuttal, not political invective.

If they couldn't find a single black voter in Florida in 2000 who was 'disenfranchized', I think you'll have a very hard time finding even a hundred voters, let alone a thousand, let alone the thousands that you claim were 'disenfranchized' this most recent election.

Why don't you go look for them?  You can give us an update when you find ten.  Then you'll have some actual hard data that someone might believe.

Party affiliations (or none) notwithstanding . . .

Report (Fact. Fiction. Fancy) notwithstanding . . .

Whether or not you consider these comments a 'rant' - notwithstanding . . .

Democrats (or, elements of the Party) are acting badly.  They disrespect national institutions, they disrespect the results of any election that does not place them in power.  They disrespect any person in power not aligned with them. They are willing to(and often do) abuse their elective positions, betray the good of the many for their benefit, and openly and vocally disrespect the demonstrated will of the majority of Americans.

Elements of the party are incabable of any form of compromise (remember compromise:  the lubricant of democratic processes?) or nonpartisanship - and I for one am weary of and disgusted with their abysmal behavior.

FYI:  I come from a very long line of traditional Democrats (although not one myself). Most of my clan remained staunch and loyal democrats - until witnessing that Party's conduct over the past few years.

The Democratic Party angered, embarrassed, betrayed, dismissed and in the end - lost most of these people.  

I have often made the point on this blog and elsewhere that the Democratic Party apparatus today is little more than a corpse of the 'real' Democratic Party occupied by an leftist, anti-American entity.  

Whatever that entity may be - it is driving the Democratic Party down into near political oblivion.  Its principal power is the power to disrupt governmental functions, and attempt to deligitimize activities not tending to support its own agenda.  Want some insight?  Locate, if you can, the national Democratic Party agenda for the nation - and pluck from it all of the positive, forward-looking tenets.

In short, whatever value the Democratic Party may have for its operating elite - is offset by minimalization and alienation of its traditional membership (Zell Miller is neither an abherration nor a traitor to his Party), and corruption of democratic processes it purports to to defend.

Whether or not you choose to accept all or any of these perspectives is - of course - your choice.  However, you might be advised to look a little more beyond the vocal and visible smoke screens activist Democratic apparatchnics employ to  mask their true intentions.

check out the data.  It doesn't make much sense to refuse to look at the data and simultaneously claim the data does not exist.