Redstate

Many European countries allow immigrants in, but never really offer them the opportunity to become part of that country and its culture.  While it's never (as far as I know) written in any of their laws, the European cultures keep immigrants from other countries at arms length.  The word "auslander" in Germany described more than just a foreign visitor.  It characterized a segment of German society (e.g., Turkish workers and their two or three generations of descendants) who lived in the country but wasn't viewed as belonging to it.

And that has bred generations of resentment among France' younger, and much angrier, Muslim Auslanders.    

The opposition Socialist Party and many in the suburbs themselves blamed hardline policies by Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy for fanning the violence.

The opposition Socialist Party (which, along with the Communists, has always been strong in the working/poor suburbs) failed to even get to the second round of the presidential election in 2002, and lost control of the parliament the same year in a UMP (center-right) walloping. The UMP currently holds about a 370-140 advantage, with a few dozen others in the fringe parties. A recent poll I saw had not one, but two UMP candidates for president in 2007 outpacing the leading Socialists. I think people in France are fed up, I really do.

Although it is tempting to blame it on Islam I think that in this case religion may be almost peripheral to the problem. There is certainly a segment that has chosen not to assimilate and used preservation their religion as justification.

But there is much more, especially the unspoken us/them standards of the French, Germans, et al, natives. Foreign visitors, businessmen and tourists are welcome enough because they are eventually leaving (except of course among Parisien waiters where no one is ever actually welcome.*) But immigrants, "étrangers", are a different story; they are viewed more with Benjamin Franklin's attitude to visitors and fish.

----------------------------------

* I used to travel to France a great deal, mostly Paris of course, on business; and I am as in love with the City of Light as anyone can be. Most Americans always hear that the French don't like us which could not be further from the truth; outside Paris and the Ile de France they are as hospitable to Americans as one could ask for. And it is equally untrue that Parisiens don't like Americans; they in fact don't like anyone, even other Frenchmen :-)

As we know there are times when it is approriate to allow a forest fire to 'burn itself out' rather than intervene; under the right circumstances the fire is good for the forest in many ways. This view seems to have found some support in France

The peak is now behind us," Gerard Gaudron, mayor of Aulnay-sous- Bois, one of the worst-hit suburbs, told France-Info radio. He said parents were determined to keep their teenagers at home to prevent unrest. "People have had enough. People are afraid. It's time for this to stop."

The fires have burned themselves out, go back to sleep.

----------------

the French accept them?  If the majority of French want France kept French, I certainly don't blame them or begrudge them. Why they haven't risen up to force their government to cut back on the immigration that's fueled this.

The center right has not proposed anything that will have a meaningful impact on the French problems.

Economically, the French Center Right is somewhere to the left of the most liberal Democrats in the US. The only laws that have been proposed to liberalize the economy have been nonsensically small. Even those are routinely rejected when strikes close down roads or ports. Chirac called an election shortly after taking office in his first term to get a mandate to make some changes. His party was soundly defeated and the Socialists held power for years afterwards.

Until a leader emerges that proposes reforms and rallies the populace behind him no meaningful reform can take place. The French middle class like things the way they are. No change needed. And it will stay that way until economic conditions get worse.

Until a leader emerges that proposes reforms and rallies the populace behind him no meaningful reform can take place.

Salut les gars!

I've heard a little of him, but I'm always skeptical of the great things a leader WILL do. He may have good intentions, but getting reforms through demands a lot. Very few people have had the enduring vision and popularity to pull of such a feat. Margaret Thatcher was one, but they are few and far between.

but there is some disagreement over whether the riots in this case have abated. Yes, Mayor Gaudron says things have abated, and maybe they have in his town, but others think differently. But even if the riots die out in the next day or two (as we hope), nothing has been done to keep them from happening again.

Meanwhile, the fires in France will eventually burn themselves out, as you predict.  But that is little comfort for this lady.

they should or shouldn't, it's their country. I'm merely observing that they have far less tolerance for 'etrangers' than many peoples --- and certainly far less than Americans.

Sadly all too true.

I've seldom received rude treatment in France, and it's a matter of realizing that politeness is an important part of the culture and playing by the rules.  

Greet someone politely in French and then ask if they speak English, rather than just blathering away.  Say hello and goodbye when entering or leaving a shop, as the owner considers you a guest in part of their home.  Smiling is reserved for genuine humor and moments of camaraderie.  And for crying out loud (so to speak), keep your voice down.  After you've been around reserved, low-talking French for a while, a group of Americans sticks out like a troop of howler monkeys.  A little effort goes such a long way...

As far as it goes.  Arrogance and an inability to converse in some basic terms in the language breeds a kind of mutual hostility.  Combined with the separation between the countries, not just in terms of political philosophy but more simply as a matter of distance, you reach a point where allies are no longer allies.  Certainly, there are many legitimate disagreements, but politically, some of those disagreements are now being fueled by a kind of mutual arrogance.  It really never has been this bad.  

Can be charmed again, and that is what I am saying here.  The bluntness of the rhetoric has gotten out of hand, and truthfully, many American tourists to France act in the same way they do in Mexico:  with no understanding of the language or customs, they yell.  This doesn't help our image in France.  Lewis Lapham could shout from the rooftops that America is evil, but if the French themselves knew that it wasn't so he would be virtually mute.  One of my goals in the next five years is to learn enough French (actually, to recall it and extend it, because I had a semester of it in high school) and travel there.  Of course, I'm also learning Polish and I think I'll have some funny things to say about the Plumbers.  I'll never be happy with the French, and I'll always be very angry that they didn't support us in Iraq for reasons that have been clear for some time, but I can extend a hand still and say: listen, you may think of us as the land of the Philistines, but there is something you should also remember:  we might be correct.

Well, there was the Quasi War of 1798 to 1801.

This would have been my plan for dealing with this situation.

1st Day: Merde!

2nd Day: Merde! This isn't stopping

3rd Day: Merde! Now I'm pissed.

4th Day: Martial Law; 9pm Curfew. Anyone on the street has 10 seconds to get down on the ground when confronted by security forces or be shot dead.

5th Day: Morning. Anyone that manages not to be shot dead are deported to their country that they have dual citizenship with. French citizenship revoked. Noon. French citizens in violation are shipped to the French Legion or some uninhabited French Island to live out their days Survivor style until further notice.

6th Day: Damage control. Back to strikes and America hating.

7th Day: Movie makers finally make a movie that doesn't involve boring people sitting around saying nothing of consequence being depressed and chain smoking.

of a truly sick mind :-)

The XYZ Affair! Man, you never hear about that anymore. Is there still a grand jury empaneled to determine who leaked the names of X, Y, and Z?

no such Grand Jury exists, but don't say that out loud or Chuck Schumer might start having "ideas" again.

I think the irony of our squabbles with the French over Iraq was that, at least initially, our positions weren't that far apart.  What they took exception to was how imminent the threat from Iraq was, and whether that justified invasion rather than more time for inspections.  And hindsight and an overwhelming lack of evidence for WMD shows they had it right.  You can argue that they had ulterior profit motives, but the argument that the threat wasn't imminent has proven accurate.

Despite all the "monkey" talk, histrionic fits of pique that we couldn't drag them into an ill-advised barroom brawl, and lectures on who's saved whose bacon over the course of history, they're still at our side around the world in hot spots they agree on as threats.  It's a pretty shabby friend that demands you agree with them on every issue as a test of that friendship, but a decent one that still hangs around despite it all.

Have fun in your travels.  I really enjoyed Poland and the Poles, and especially liked Krakow.  One of my favorite moments was watching a bunch of Poles staggering out of bar late at night and belting out "American Pie" in the middle of the street.  They still like us.

with your plan they will stop shooting police when they run out of bullets, stop throwing rocks when they run out of rocks and stop starting fires when they run out of matches.

Sounds like an excellent plan... it's working fantastic so far.

That's true. America is quite popular in Poland, but that popularity is waning as of late somewhat. I was back visiting the relatives this summer (Poznan and Warsaw mostly, though I did spend a lovely day in Krakow as a day trip from the Tartra mountains). I got an earful on multiple occasions on a variety of topics.

The Polish public expected to get paid for their military's participation in Iraq. They expected, rightly or wrongly, to reap some material benefits from helping the Americans. This didn't happen, and so there was a lot of grousing over that. In addition, multiple deals over the past few years have upset many Poles. The U.S. government extended billions in credit to the Polish government to buy F-16 fighters.

Poland doesn't have the money to keep the fighters in the air, much less pay back the loans. Most Poles chalked this up to garden variety corruption. Like elsewhere, ministers leave office and then wind up with lucrative private sector jobs.

Also, many Poles had enough of Kwasniewski and were interested in less socialism and more jobs. Kwasniewski was associated with Bush much the same way Blair is, and the pairing is not flattering to a population that just lurched center-right.

But, all in all, Poland is one of the most reliable friends the U.S. has in Europe and is always a pleasure to visit. It helps to speak Polish, though Poles seem to be pleasant to visitors who aren't of Polish extraction.

The French are very pleasant people as well. There is a real and growing 'right wing' in France, as opposed to the counterfeit 'right' of the RPR. It will be some time before its presence is really felt, but I think the results will be fantastic when it does.

I really do find the anti-French attitude of the American right to be most upsetting. People are not governments. I remember growing up and having kids call me a 'communist' because of my Polish background. My parents were anti-communists, which is why they fled into exile in the first place and why I was born in the U.S. But, Polish last name and Polish background equaled communist, even though most Poles hated the regime. We can disagree with the French government, or the Polish government, or even the American government and not have anything against the people themselves.

but the riots show no sign of abating right now.

French middle class like things the way they are.

If that is the case, then their policies should be left alone. Usually, what the poor want is hardly the dominating concern, rightly or wrongly, which leaves the middle and rich. Assuming your statement correct, should the policies that the middle class like by rejected in favor of some that the rich would more thoroughly support?

I think they've also been a bit irked that they need a visa to come here, despite being a good friend to America, while they place no such stipulation on us.  I recall Kwasniewski raising the issue directly with Bush in front of the press, and unfortunately his response was irritation at feeling he was ambushed on the issue.  I wish we treated our friends better...we'd keep more of them.

One thing I love about Poland is the feeling of basic decency and honor I get from the people there.  You don't have to walk around with a death grip on your wallet like in Italy.  I loved it in Krakow that one of those yummy round pretzels the old ladies sell is the same price both in and away from the tourist areas.

and understand, the we, not them, had 911 and are the main target for the jihadists.

most free people in the world are free because we set them free

we treat enemies better than most treat friends

this clintonlike focus on personalities is puny

bush has set 50+ million free and counting

the main benefit to the poles is the reduced likelihood that they will fall to jihadists after we land in krakow and proceed west to remove the "jihadvichy" govt in france in a reverse normandy manuever!

actually make a comment to Poles that the U.S. set everyone free. At the end of WWII, the Red Army was securely parked on top of Polish soil. The Poles valiantly resisted NAZI tyranny, only to be transferred to Soviet tyranny.

Many Poles blamed Yalta and Roosevelt for this fact. It engendered a lot of bitterness, but almost every Pole on the planet has gotten over it by now.

Poles revolted against communism in 1956, in the 1960's several times, in the 1970's, and then in 1980 with the founding of Solidarity. There was a tremendous amount of sacrifice on the part of many Poles, including Pope John Paul II, that eventually brought down the entire Soviet Empire. To a large extent, the Poles consider that they liberated themselves. The U.S. played a role in containing the Soviet Empire's expansion, but remember that the U.S. took almost no action to punish the Soviets for the Martial Law crackdown in Poland.

Poles don't bear any ill-will over this. Heck, most Poles have forgiven the Germans and the Russians, much less the United States. But it is irksome when Americans crow as if they are the only group of people in the whole Earth who ever did anything for the cause of liberty. Considering that I carry both U.S. and Polish citizenship (plus I am married to a Pole), I see this more clearly than most.

Lots of people in the world have fought and died for their own freedom. The U.S. have helped some, ignored some, and even hindered others. That isn't America bashing, that's just an honest appraisal of 220+ years of history. We have done great work in a lot of areas, but we need to remember that it was often in partnership with folks like the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan who bled on the ground to make our victory possible.

Also, most North Central Europeans don't worry much about Jihad. The number of Muslim immigrants into countries east of Germany is quite small. (Russia excepted with its large Muslim populations.) As for the U.S. attacking France - that is impossible. France is a nuclear power with an arsenal that is capable of attacking the United States. If France flips to Muslim rule, the U.S. will do nothing militarily to stop that from occurring. We will simply have to live it, as a nuclear armed France is untouchable, realistically.

but poland and all free peopple should worry about the jihadists. With a french bomb they can populate any country not now populated with their kind.

Yes, many have fought for freedom, but without us, most lose.  And were it not for reagan, poland would still be un-free.

Is that the rioting continues to get worse, not better. And in a scary development, the rioters are fighting the police head on now:

Youths set ablaze nearly 1,300 vehicles and torched businesses, schools and symbols of French authority, including post offices and provincial police stations, late Saturday and early Sunday.

Police clashed with rioters south of the capital Sunday night, the 11th consecutive night of unrest. About 10 police were injured, two seriously, in Grigny in the Essonne region, the Interior Ministry said. LCI television reported that shots from a pellet gun were fired.

The violence took another alarming turn Saturday night with attacks in the well-guarded French capital. Police said 35 cars were torched, most on the city's northern and southern edges.

Up until now I have refrained from endorsing some of the more draconian methods others here at RedState have been talking about ("shoot them on sight!" among others), but the time may soon come for the French to take their gloves off with these punks.  As an American I take now joy in seeing a proud ally reduced to cowering before street hoodlums. I dearly wish they would show some backbone now, before it is too late.

Curfew tonite on the 13th night! (maybe 12th)

Only 9 days late. Will see if I'm sick or sensible esp since this has snowballed (as predicted).