Redstate

That's true, had a Cat 4 hurricane hit any other city in the Union, FEMA wouldn't have needed to come in at all.  Texas would have handled this no problem.  

That's just dumb logic.  FEMA exists because their isn't a state in America that can afford to have a standing army or Federal Emergency Managment Agency of it's own.  Were their errors on the local and state level?  Absolutely, but we're a Federalized nation for a reason.  You put an Arabian Horse Association head in charge of disaster relief and this is what you get.  

There is blame to go around everywhere to be sure, but it lies most squarely at the feet of local leaders in the city of New Orleans and the state of Louisiana. And not just the current leaders. The "Blame Bush first" crowd is going to get burned in the coming months as more truth emerges about the institutionalized corruption in the the 90 percent Democratic city of New Orleans. This is most responsible for the failure to prepare and the resulting death and destruction. Oh yeah, and let's go ahead and make the sure bet now that these same local leaders will misuse and abuse relief dollars like only the Big Sleazy can.

The head of FEMA had broader experience than the head of a 'horse' organziation. He did hold the secondary job in FEMA and held other goverment positions, elected and appointed. The problem is that the damaged area is the size of Gr. Britain, the destruction is near total, and New Orleans was more interested in NOT paying the taxes necessary to repair the levees. They preferred that you and I do it with our tax money. Why is it our problem to build levees so people to live BELOW a lake and BELOW the Gulf. This disaster is because people decided to live in a stupid place and not take the steps necessary to survive. All for the myth that was romantic New Orleans. This was going to happen eventually. Period. Sad? Tragic? Most certainly. Should we rush to aid? Of course! But be realistic here. This is not about politics (except for the conflict between the mayor and the govenor, which is politics!), its about the real world. Hurricanes hit the coast whether people live there or not. Living below sea level in an area where hurricanes hit is risky at best and the fact that people live there will never stop a single hurricane. And all levees will fail eventually. Living below levees, volcanoes, and dams, or on a flood plain will eventually mean destruction for people who decide to live there. Do it at your own risk. We will help, but we will not take the blame.

Charging Piper,

What's your evidence concerning the New Orleans' city government's "institutionalized corruption"?  To what, specifically, are you referring?  Which leaders?  How exactly were they corrupt?

And -- this is the big question, IMO -- how precisely did this corruption lead to the inadequate response that we saw last week to Katrina's destruction?

Inquiring minds want to know....

I just like saying the word.  It makes me sound like a Republican.

Re: That's true, had a Cat 4 hurricane hit any other city in the Union, FEMA wouldn't have needed to come in at all.

We had a Cat 4 hurricane in Port Charlotte last year, and three other less powerful hurricanes elsewehere in Florida, including one that did massive damage to Pensacola. And yes, FEMA came in. Moreover there were complaints from Florida authorities (much muted, for obvious reasons) about FEMA's competence then too.

As I have said elsewhere I am willing give Bush himself the benefit of the doubt, for now. But there are some mightily imcompetent bureaucrats in Washington (which should surprise no conservative I should think!) and the President needs to do some housecleaning. Picking the wrong guys for a job is forgivable. Businesses do it all the time. Sticking with them when their underperformance has become a source of public outrage, even among supporters, is absurd.

The state and New Orleans has a long record of corruption. Fifty cops in jail in the past few years, two on death row - all from a special investigation on police corruption. Political leaders in jail - state and local. The current mayor campaigned on the improvement he would bring over the corruption of the last one. You might want to do a search on the internet. The newspapers should be able to help, since you are so cynical.

The facts will be out in the near future about this disaster - including things that were probably never suspected. BTW, you did know that N.O. is the murder capital of the country, right?

are you there?

this is a sibling message to what I was saying in my diary on this.

No secret big programs... but this acknowledgement we read above.

When was the last time the federal government cleaned it's house? Firing people admits mediocre performance, and this administration, like others before it, are more interested in manipulating public opinion than solving problems. No, they will just have a probe which creates a black hole.

Go to google. Type in: corruption "New Orleans"

Enjoy the 1.8 million hits.

what is in front of our own eyes:  

Bush declared this a federal emergency.

Whether or not the admin. had a role in enabling the disaster, they and the organizations they control were directly responsible for their actions during the immediate aftermath. Those actions were abysmally inadequate and there should be investigation and accountability.

IS the governments job whether you think it should be or not, and they are responsible at leat in part.  By your logic if people are caught in a nuclear explosion in NYC, they deserve it because it's a prime terrorist target, so they should have been prepared for it.

When I type in "New Orleans" + corruption in Google I do get a lot of hits -- 1.6 million.  But when I type in "Dallas" + Corruption, I get 1.2 million, "San Diego" + corruption, I get 2.4 million, "Atlanta" + corruption, 1.4 million.

What exactly is the cutoff in Google hits that makes it OK for the FEMA chief to wait until two days after a disaster strikes to even start rescue and recovery operations?

It seems like a lot of cities, and a lot of American citizens, will be left to die if they face a disaster, and we use the same logic and calculations as you do in determining whether they deserve help...

a good buddy of Bush, that experience would be? exactly what emergency response experience did he have?

"...without a moral compass, ethical boundaries and a profound understanding that public servants should serve the public, our leaders simply occupy positions of power to serve themselves."

How true at all levels of government, and how sad that the best predictor of how our leaders will act is found by looking at what is in their personal self interest. Green expanded his comment by bemoaning the institutional corruption of NO, but couldn't we all as well look at the influence-peddling, special interest coddling, good-old-boying, gerrymandering, secrecy-ridden Federal government and say the same thing?

FEMA does not have an army of rescue helicopters, boats, planes etc. What they do is CO-ORDINATE resources from the Feds, locals, and state. That is what they do. FEMA was on the ground outside New Orleans by late Monday.

The problem was that the locals were just totally inept. They were not even minimally competent.

Once Nagin decided NOT to evac the city at 60 hours plus according to his own plan, thousands would inevitably die. The City and State's own Emergency Plans predicted this. FEMA had no authority to on Friday start evacs of the City and force them to follow their own plan.

The Red Cross is saying that BLANCO would not let them into the City on Tuesday, as BLANCO did not want the Superdome and Convention Center to become "magnets" and wanted people to leave. Given Blanco's disappearing and then crying for the cameras, failure to declare martial law and allowing looting and thus public disorder turning into rape/murder/arson sprees, this is par for the course.

To give you an idea of the total corruption of Louisiana state politics, the current Senator, Landrieu, is the daughter of former New Orleans Mayor Moon Landrieu (himself pretty corrupt); and the most notable ex-Governor is Edwin Edwards, now sitting in prison for bribery. Edwin Edwards desire to milk Harrah's for all the bribe money he could is the reason Louisiana has ONE casino, at the bottom of Canal Street in New Orleans, and Mississippi has so many, which comprises about 50% of their revenues. Edwin Edwards once said he'd only be turned out by the voters if he was caught in bed with a live boy or dead girl. Edwin Edwards against David Duke had the campaign slogan "Vote for the Crook, it's important."

Ironically, Nagin and Blanco are so far as I know NOT corrupt. Before this fiasco Nagin was considered the only non-corrupt and competent Mayor in New Orleans history. You have no idea how BAD the crime and education failures spiralled out of control in New Orleans. NO ONE would send their kid to a New Orleans public school, even working class people wanted their kids in private school, and murders even of tourists were commonplace and tolerated.

There was no systemic attempt to control crime, improve education, and lift people out of poverty. This is symptomatic of Louisiana politics which you cannot understand until you've lived there a while (believe me it's not like the rest of the US).

FEMA's job is to co-ordinate responses and depends on locals. Even fairly corrupt cities like Philly would have had Mayors onsite (instead of in Baton Rouge as Nagin was most of the week) and Governors who would allow Red Cross in and send in troops right away. I agree FEMA did not mobilize enough Federal Resources considering the scope of the disaster, and should not be in DHS (as Dems and Media demanded as part of the 9/11 Commission Recs) but that's another matter.

after a disaster.

For one thing many people want it and want it now.

I didn't have power for 5 days after two different hurricanes (and to be honest I never saw anyone from FEMA in my town-what does a person from FEMA look like?).  If you asked me at any point during those 5 days, how I thought the government was responding, you probably would have gotten an earfull of misery.

Some complaints are legitimate, but let's face it, a disaster is a disaster, and they are all unique, and there are going to be screw ups.

The real issue, is how to lessen them, but more than that make it easier for coordination to work more smoothly.  

prior to his being appointed general counsel for fema...mr brown had never held a position in and state, federal or local government, which would have prepared him to become the head of fema

this is from his own biographical statement

Prior to joining FEMA, Mr. Brown practiced law in Colorado and Oklahoma, where he served as a bar examiner on ethics and professional responsibility for the Oklahoma Supreme Court and as a hearing examiner for the Colorado Supreme Court. He had been appointed as a special prosecutor in police disciplinary matters. While attending law school he was appointed by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee of the Oklahoma Legislature as the Finance Committee Staff Director, where he oversaw state fiscal issues. His background in state and local government also includes serving as an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight and as a city councilman.

the closest he got to emergency managagement was working as an assistant city manager....ummmm, thats a clerical position

fyi, before you go bashing nagin as another lib mayor....please note his own biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin

Before his election, Nagin was a member of the Republican Party and had little political experience; he was a vice president and general manager at Cox Communications, a cable communications company and subsidiary of Cox Enterprises. Nagin did give donations periodically to candidates, namely President George W. Bush and former Republican U.S. Representative Billy Tauzin in 1999 and 2000, as well as to Democratic U.S. Senators John Breaux and J. Bennett Johnston earlier in the decade.

Days before filing for the New Orleans Mayoral race in February 2002, Nagin switched his party registration to the Democratic Party. Shortly before the primary election, an endorsement praising Nagin as a reformer by Gambit Magazine gave him crucial momentum that would carry through for the primary election and runoff. In the first round of the crowded mayoral election in February 2002, Nagin received first place with 29% of the vote, against such opponents as Police Chief Richard Pennington, State Senator Paulette Irons, City Councilman Troy Carter and others. In the runoff with Pennington in May 2002, Nagin won with 59% of the vote. His campaign was largely self-financed.

Shortly after taking office, Nagin launched an anti-corruption campaign within city government, which included crackdowns on the city's Taxicab Bureau and Utilities Department. Nagin also made a controversial endorsement of current Republican U.S. Representative Bobby Jindal in the 2003 Louisiana Gubernatorial Runoff over current Democratic Governor Kathleen Blanco, and only reluctantly endorsed U.S. Senator John Kerry in the 2004 Presidential race.

i am sure i will be banned after this post...but what the heck...the truth must come out

he is a particularly stupid and singularly incompetent mayor.

Nobody--and I mean nobody--is required to do any research or provide any documentation to prove to any doubters here that New Orleans, LA has long been characterized as, by far, one of America's most morally, structurally, and institutionally decayed cities.  If one knows anything about history, politics, and demographics in this country, there should be no question or doubt that New Orleans was a "cesspool" long before it became a cesspool.

To willfully deny that the city's prior condition contributed greatly to the current disaster (as opposed to pinning it all on a moderately inept federal agency charged with covering for the failings and mistakes of local government) is ignorant at worst, but at best fails to allow us to address and correct mistakes.

I'm not convinced New Orleans will be rebuilt.

Before you rebuild the buildings, you have to not just repair the levees, but upgrade the entire system to withstand a direct hit from a category 5 huricane.  That's not a small project.

Can you save the city & the wetlands?  Will rebuilding New Orleans pit the blacks against the greens?

There will be some people who want to go back, but a lot of people won't.  A lot of businesses won't go back.  I sure won't go as a tourist during hurricane season (Jazz Fest was always my favorite time in New Orleans).

There will be some pressure from politicians & others who have no power base without a New Orleans to return to, but I'm not convinced New Orleans should be rebuilt.

I'm not convinced New Orleans will be rebuilt.

Costal cities that are below sea level should be left in the sea.

The port of NO should be rebuilt, and that's it. Move the "residential" part significantly inland.

The idea that we're supposed to pour money into new 'Cat 5 levies' is laughable.

Every taxpayer should oppose this. This is exactly the kind of under-the-radar issue that could lead to a significant 3rd party candidacy in 2008.

around here since about the day after Katrina that Nagin was a Republican before being elected mayor of NO...  that fact doesn't make us defend him at all..  his incompetence is why we blame him, not his party registration.

«and New Orleans was more interested in NOT paying the taxes necessary to repair the levees»

The federal government, through the Army Corps of Engineers had been long involved in the upgrading of the levees.  To say now, after the fact, that the city is at fault for not coming up with the taxes seems a little disingenuous.  In any case, a city the size of New Orleans (less than 500,000) would be hard pressed to complete any project of the magnitude of what was needed here on local revenues alone.  Do the math.  Federal funding is inevitable for these kinds of projects.  (Like the state of Alaska's $200 million bridge to a community of a few hundred residents.)  

If the federal government wants to abrogate its very important role in disaster planning and management and shift the tax burden exclusively to local and state governments, it should have made that choice clear a long time ago--not just conveniently pull it out of a hat in order to avoid a political backlash against its own poor response.

XSpyder,

On the face of it, your post is bizarre, I think.  I'll give you the fact that New Orleans "has long been characterized as...one of America's most most morally, structurally, and institutionally decayed cities."  And you're right, no evidence needs to be provided  to prove that it has been "characterized" that way.  

But to say it's been "characterized" as morally and institutionally corrupt is not the same thing as saying it is morally and institutionally corrupt.  New York, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Detroit, Baltimore...and Washington DC have all been "characterized" as "morally, structurally, and institutionally decayed" at many points in American history and still today.

Do you think they don't deserve competent federal assistance to survive a disaster, either?  Do you think that denying such cities competent assisstance is the patriotic position to support?

Sorry, guys. Reality is reality. People chose to live below sea level. This was going to happen, no matter how well anyone planned - and the planning was bad. We are responsible for the area we live in and need to do better than this. Move the city to  higher ground! Do extend my remarks to nukes. Not the same issue. That is a refusal to look at the situation, discover the danger and fix it. You can't blame people - you fix the problem and don't do stupid things that put your life at risk. If you do, don't blame others. Take responsibility.

Read the ID piece. Pretty weak including out of context quotations and misuse of others. Following Green's technique, let me label him a moral relativist as he states unequivocably in the penultimate graph:

The truth comes down to what one chooses to believe.

I remain of the opinion that the following ratio holds-- ID:Science::WWF:Athletics.

The "Bridge to nowhere" was designed to be a $100mil bridge built from local resources by local contractors, permitting easier growth of the city of Anchorage; much the same could be said for the rest of that billion dollars of road projects in that bill.  The $200Mil and its source and who will be given that money are exactly the reason that senator won't ever find another elected office in our state again.

Like you said, the City could not have afforded it, but the State could.  On the other hand, it would have taken up money from sources for bribes and graft.  The city most definitely should have taken a hand in its own preparations and they failed to do so, resulting in thousands of deaths.  

Point #1:  The City and State officials failed in their duties to prepare for the storm.

Point #2:  When the National Guard tried to fly Choppers in to evacuate refugees from those collections points (the Superdome and Convention Center) they were fired on by residents of the city.  End of that plan.

Point #3: FEMA and other Federal agencies underestimated the catastrophe (and don't say it was declared a Federal Emergency because so was Virginia Beach after the hurricane in '03) and the efforts of the residents and local officials to stymie their efforts to assist in rescue and rebuilding.

Point #4:  For whatever reason, those same government agencies failed to react quickly enough to their misjudgements to save lives.

Blame lies everywhere, but apportion it appropriately.  To Local government and residents first and the federal government second.

Ever since Ike left office?  Of course we could and should.  On Both sides of the house.  All parties need to clean up their houses.

"Point #2:  When the National Guard tried to fly Choppers in to evacuate refugees from those collections points (the Superdome and Convention Center) they were fired on by residents of the city.  End of that plan."

Maybe they were fired on, but could it people just signaled with guns.  

Was anyone hit?

Stanford

signal an aircraft with a gun? Think about it.

Now it is entirely possible that the people involved aren't big on second-order reasoning. Or it could be that people were shooting at helicopters.

Since he joined FEMA?  All you have there is "Before he joined."  When did he join FEMA and what did he do there?

not too often that the moment you join a large organization that you get appointed straight to the head of it regardless of who you know.

That is a good link. Thnx.

Stanford

It is taught that when lost, you signal your location by firing 3 times.

  However, while, to my knowledge, no one was hit, 2 helicopters received serious damage from high-calibre handguns/rifles.

Hard to tell exactly what fired a bullet after it ricochets inside a metal container, after all.

Needless to say, the aircraft were forced out of the air by gunfire.

And before anyone tries to say that handguns are unlikeyly to harm military helicopters, Most, and especially those the NG possess are not loaded with battle armour at all and especially not when trying to cram maximum occupancy aboard for local rescue ops.

Would a strong 3rd party be so bad?  Especially with the failing Democratic party.  Without a strong opponent to keep them honest, Republicans will get just as bad, if not worse than Democratic officials are portraying themselves.  Without a choice in political parties, our government would cease to be a democracy and become the very monster we went into Iraq to eliminate.

And I, personally, strong Republican that I am, would prefer to vote for the honest and competent candidate, whomever he may be, as opposed to the Party Candidate.

Your post gets into a lot of issues that were not really part of my own comment.  I'm sure, as you say, that there is blame enough for everyone in the aftermath of this disaster.

I was responding more specifically to the claim that the city of New Orleans should have come up with more taxes to pay for improvements to the levee system.  

I'm sure you'll agree that this is a disingenous argument.  Everyone has been saying how poor New Orleans is.  Now, no matter how much corruption and graft there is, it's not going to make up for the billions of dollars necessary to fix the levees.

While it is true that the state needed to fork over some money as well, this is not really the core of my argument either.  My point was that the federal government was understood by all parties to be a central player in the maintenance and repair of the levee system, as it is in many similar projects across the country.  To say after the levee fails, "well, you guys should have invested more money in this, and therefore you're to blame for it failing," seems to me to be an attempt at passing the buck.

Should I conclude from your response to my post that the federal government shouldn't be in the levee business or in the construction and maintenence of other kinds of civil defense projects?  If so, then that should be made clear to everyone now, so that there is no confusion if something like this happens in the future.   I think people living in less-populated and less affluent states would suffer as a consequence, but if that's what people want, well, I could live with it.

but it doesn't make sense in the context of history.  People are saying that New Orleans should not be rebuilt, because it's simply not a good, safe place for a city.

Well, cities don't spring up fully formed from the earth, and cities the size of New Orleans don't grow and develop for 300 years if the area is that bad.

Flooding like this is not a frequent occurance - Yes, some flooding happens, but the need for a mass evacuation does not.  This was a freak occurance of nature.

In the long run, it's a very good place for a city.  Otherwise, one wouldn't be there.

I'm sorry.  Which issue are we discussing here? I think this piece is about the lack of moral/social bearings that led to the disintegration of law and order. As usual with intense issues we are conflating all the issues into one biiiig issue, which doesn't really make any sense.

Are we talking about unecessary loss of life? Can someone help me understand how many lives were lost because the federal response was 1-2 days slower than the very best possible outcome?  

Come on, how many? I don't have an answer, but I am guessing that 99%+ of all lost lives were lost by Tuesday evening. No response save holy intervention could have saved them. So why do we have such concern about the speed of the response? Really, what would have been different?

Was it the looters? And the gangsters? Do we really believe that anybody could have stopped that during the first 2 days?

One expects foolishness and panic when faced with disaster at this level. But I remain amazed by how widespread it is on both sides of the aisle. A really, really big hurricane hit New Orleans and did precisely what people have been saying it would do. Why is anybody suprised?  

I have little to say on the topic of the levees failing, in fact.  They fail and often, regardless of how well built or how massive they are.  Think Sacramento River.  

My opinion on this matter is that the local and state officials (to my knowledge) did little to nothing to avoid the catastrophe suffered by LA.

I say to my knowledge because I do not have a timeline of events that occurred leading up this disaster.  That is why they are to be blamed.

The citizens of NO are to blame for allowing their local officals to be the kind of people they are/were and allow such crime and lawlessness that resulted in the kind of looting and rioting that occurred and that included firing upon rescue workers and rescue-craft.

And as for pulling the "less-populated and less-affluent states" card, Alaska handled without Federal assistance the largest wildefire in US history, followed the next summer by a volcanic eruption a mere 9 years ago.  If Alaska's population of 600,000 -- to include the Natives -- could handle that, surely a state as large as Louisianna could handle a run of the mill hurricane.  Especially since hurricanes are as common there as Earthquakes are in Cali and AK.

And the heart of dealing with natural disasters is the preparation for them.  in NOs case, that means a proper levee and dam system to protect the city and some sort of pump system to clear out as much water as fast as possible for the times when the levees and dams just aren't enough.

And while Federal Aid, no doubt, would still be neccessary for something so costly as levees and dams, the State should have developed the plans and assembled the contractors to perform the construction and Then ask for the money to get it done.

I do not think the thugs shooting at helicopters at the Superdome were following proper etiquette to denote that they were lost.

This wasn't the woods.  They knew where they were.

They were just thugs.  Whatever race, whatever party, whatever disposition.  Plain and simple.

"Edwin Edwards desire to milk Harrah's for all the bribe money he could is the reason Louisiana has ONE casino, at the bottom of Canal Street in New Orleans, and Mississippi has so many, which comprises about 50% of their revenues. "

Are you saying having 50% of state revenues based on casinos is a good thing?

Also, regretably, Louisiana has more than one casino.  Perhaps you meant "New Orleans."

Also, how are those Mississippi casinos doing right now?

Your sentence should be rewritten.  Here is my humble submission for the sake of accuracy:

"Edwin Edwards desire to milk Harrah's for all the bribe money he could is the reason the FBI was able to put him in jail."

Please get your corruption facts straight ;)

and on the same fault line

should they have used the same reasoning in 1906?

The NY Times has an interesting article on flood control in Holland.  They apparently had a devastating flood in the 50's and came up with a very smart high-tech solution to the problem.

As for local officials, I'm not really sure what you can do when 80% of your city is underwater.  I mean it's got to take out an enormous amount of your infrastructure.  This isn't to say there weren't problems, but I'm not convinced that any city that's suffered that kind of devastation is going to be able to come up with much of a local response.

I can't comment on the wildfire example.  I still think the general point holds.  In any case, the less-affluent and less-populated states tend to be Republican, so I assume they know what they're getting into.

Just one final point.  I don't believe that California is really ready for the worst of the worst.  I've heard for years that the Hayward Fault in the bay area could go at any time, and there would be massive destruction.   And yet there are still many, many buildings in the east bay that are not up to current earthquake standards.  I think the main problem is politics.  There's just no political will for long-term investments in the kind of remedies required to really protect people.  Maybe that's why terrorism is a more popular target for government action.  It makes people nervous in ways that natural disasters do not.

I also like Kurt Vonneguts definition:

"You know what truth is?...  It's some crazy thing my neighbor believes. If I want to make friends with him, I ask him what he believes. He tells me, and I say, 'Yeah, yeah -- ain't it the truth?' "  

Breakfast of Champions - Kurt Vonnegut

(is off-topic, but oh well) is a joke.  The real threat is the San Andreas.  Hayward would wipe out San Fran, most likely, but they rather expect it.  After all, it's what caused that big fire they had a while back.  San Andreas would level half the state if they had a quake the size of the '64 one in AK.  And San Andreas changes names several times but is the same fault that made such a mess in AK back then.  Big, Long, powerful fault-line and the Californians are about as prepared for that catastrophe as the Japanese were when (Kyoto, wasn't it?) they had that major earthquake absolutely demolish one of their "earthquake-proof" cities just recently here.